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Old
09-18-2012, 12:26 AM
  #101
Ohio Jones
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Originally Posted by theaub View Post
If he was hitting .300 I bet people wouldn't be running him out of town
True - for many folks, success covers a multitude of sins (including being a ********* - which itself one could argue is a misogynistic slur...). It shouldn't, though.

But keep in mind, many people had targeted Escobar as likely trade bait before this event, this just underscored for them why he might not be in the Jays' plans long-term.

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09-18-2012, 12:28 AM
  #102
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I doubt we'll ever know the true, full story either. If it was him, well, he's a moron. If it was somebody else and he wore it knowing it was there, they're both morons. If it was somebody else and he put it on unaware, there's still a moron.

Point is, I don't know if we ever figure out who the other moron is. Clubhouse mentality wouldn't allow him to come out tomorrow and say "Yeah, Kelly Johnson played a prank. Our bad". (Please note, KJ just chosen at random)

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09-18-2012, 12:34 AM
  #103
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If there was no punishment from the league I don't think anyone else would care if he wore it.

This really is an overblown issue; but that's just the way it is nowadays. He'll give a forced apology, show up at some random community event to support the gay community, probably take a small fine (that will be covered by the clubhouse) and then in a month no one will give a crap.

If he was hitting .300 I bet people wouldn't be running him out of town
If it was Jose, EE, Lawrie or any other of my favourite jays I'd feel the exact same way. Classless is classless. I've admittedly fallen out of favour with Yunel because of his perceived ego he displays on the field. But I have no respect for anyone that would blatantly disrespect in such a way. If it comes out that EE or Lawrie did it to him without his knowledge if that's even possible my feelings would immediately go in that direction. Yes I'm sure guys joke around in the clubhouse and really I don't even care about that because we aren't privy to that and it's not done behind closed doors and they can deal with that internally. When you make it public you need to be prepared to deal with the consequences.

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:34 AM
  #104
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But keep in mind, many people had targeted Escobar as likely trade bait before this event, this just underscored for them why he might not be in the Jays' plans long-term.
This pretty much reminds me of the Alex Rios thing, which was a complete smear job. But hey we couldn't use an outfielder hitting .295/.326/.512 with a 20/20 (and if anyone's going to give me all that closet racist hustle crap then go watch some highlights of the Sox/Tiger game today).

I will never, never understand why people think athletes should be role models or have the same level of accountability of people in other professions. Some accountant using a racial/homophobic slur can easily be replaced by another equivalent accountant; major league baseball players can't. There's a reason Tom Cruise and Mel Gibson keep making movies too.

e: just in case it wasn't clear, that's a general comment not directed at you

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09-18-2012, 12:40 AM
  #105
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Well lets hope the presser goes something along the lines of: It was a prank or stupid joke, apologize, made a dumb mistake and regrets it won't happen again.

I can only think right now it was an egregious error in judgement on his part.

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09-18-2012, 12:41 AM
  #106
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Scott Ferguson opining on TSN.ca that there are many reasons why Ortiz won't be coming to Toronto this offseason. He makes a thoroughly unconvincing case, however. (He suggests Ortiz has indicated he wants to stay in Boston - I'm not certain that's true.)

The core of his argument seems to be that a) the Jays shouldn't sign an old guy, because Frank Thomas didn't work out; b) that few teams have a guy solely as a DH anymore (so what?) and c) they'll need all their money for starting pitching. A "fact" he then ignores himself to suggest the Jays sign Michael Bourn (which I wouldn't be opposed to, but I don't think they're mutually exclusive). He seems to forget or disregard that the biggest pitching acquisition is likely to come via trade rather than free agency.

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic about what Anthopolous can accomplish this winter, but as far as I can tell there's no reason why the Jas can't add two starters, a DH and either a LF or. 2B this winter.

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09-18-2012, 01:15 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by tp71 View Post
Well lets hope the presser goes something along the lines of: It was a prank or stupid joke, apologize, made a dumb mistake and regrets it won't happen again.

I can only think right now it was an egregious error in judgement on his part.
The problem is, if it was a dumb prank the person that did it will have to come forward. If they just say it was a prank, anddo not reveal the person, they will face heavy criticism.

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Old
09-18-2012, 01:17 AM
  #108
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If it's not a big deal, I suggest he wear it every game. See how well that works for him.
See the thing is I don't care if he does or he doesn't. You do though for who knows what reason

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Originally Posted by theaub View Post
If there was no punishment from the league I don't think anyone else would care if he wore it.

This really is an overblown issue; but that's just the way it is nowadays. He'll give a forced apology, show up at some random community event to support the gay community, probably take a small fine (that will be covered by the clubhouse) and then in a month no one will give a crap.

If he was hitting .300 I bet people wouldn't be running him out of town
I'm sure the apology will sound really sincere through his translator as well.

Anyways, Ortiz on the Jays would be unreal. Lawrie-Rasmus-EE-Bautista-Ortiz-Sierra-Johnson(or other 2B)- Gose- Hechavairra

Looking nice


Last edited by Drop The Mits: 09-18-2012 at 02:34 AM. Reason: cleaning up the mess
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09-18-2012, 01:46 AM
  #109
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See the thing is I don't care if he does or he doesn't. You do though for who knows what reason
Does what Escobar put on his face affect me? Nope not at all. However, it affects a lot of people who are homosexuals. I am concerned about those people. Lots of young kids get bullied because they are gay. Lots of young people and adults hide who they are, because morons like Yunel think its funny to put "You are a ******" in Spanish on his face.

Quote:
I'm not even getting into this with you. If a black dude uses the N word would he be in severe trouble? I'm sure it was a joke and you're just taking it too far caring about what another dude does.
You need to read better. I said a white person, not black.

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09-18-2012, 02:15 AM
  #110
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lol wont get through to this guy


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Old
09-18-2012, 02:49 AM
  #111
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Scott Ferguson opining on TSN.ca that there are many reasons why Ortiz won't be coming to Toronto this offseason. He makes a thoroughly unconvincing case, however. (He suggests Ortiz has indicated he wants to stay in Boston - I'm not certain that's true.)

The core of his argument seems to be that a) the Jays shouldn't sign an old guy, because Frank Thomas didn't work out; b) that few teams have a guy solely as a DH anymore (so what?) and c) they'll need all their money for starting pitching. A "fact" he then ignores himself to suggest the Jays sign Michael Bourn (which I wouldn't be opposed to, but I don't think they're mutually exclusive). He seems to forget or disregard that the biggest pitching acquisition is likely to come via trade rather than free agency.

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic about what Anthopolous can accomplish this winter, but as far as I can tell there's no reason why the Jas can't add two starters, a DH and either a LF or. 2B this winter.
Solid reasoning. Thomas sucked, so that means he will too...I don't see how signing Ortiz is in anyway shape or form a bad idea. A 3-4-5 slot of Bautista-EE and Ortiz makes me smile. It lets EE know you have all the confidence in him to play 1B and then you can have Cooper as the backup which isn't a bad option to have on the bench. I mean, imagine a top 6 of:

Lawrie
Rasmus
Bautista
EE
Ortiz
JPA

Does that not get anyone else excited?

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Old
09-18-2012, 02:53 AM
  #112
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The problem is, if it was a dumb prank the person that did it will have to come forward. If they just say it was a prank, anddo not reveal the person, they will face heavy criticism.
Well basically I'm hoping it was just someone did something stupid and it wont happen again. Maybe you sit whoever's great idea it was for the next series to send a message to the fans that it won't be tolerated.

Hopefully it's dealt with and it was just a dumb mistake and whoever did it will realize you can't show a lack of professionalism on or off the field when you have kids watching you and looking up to you. Set a good example.

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09-18-2012, 09:04 AM
  #113
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Late to the CV discussion, but I'm kinda torn and surprised with it. AA seemed to be angling, all year, towards building a bullpen for next year and beyond, full of arms that can go 2-3 innings. In which case, carrying a guy who can consistently go 6ip is not much of an issue. I was thinking this was the next market inefficiency - strong armed, two inning guys in droves, typically signed at low costs.

The durability question with CV is legit, but he's been pretty good most of his career. It's a classic catch-22 - and will be a shame to lose a solid, versatile arm if it comes to that (someone offering him stupid money or term). Seems that if he wanted to stick around at a decent amount, an extension would be done by now - there's been enough of that during AA's tenure for it to be a trend.

Given that, I'd not be displeased to see Brandon Lyon locked up for a couple of years to cement the depth in the pen. If Santos comes back healthy next year, it's looking to be a strong point again and an area that you can tick off your list and be happy with.

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Old
09-18-2012, 09:35 AM
  #114
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Ortiz is 36. He is one big injury away from extinction. Why would we give him a 2 year deal?

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09-18-2012, 09:47 AM
  #115
Ohio Jones
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Originally Posted by theaub View Post
This pretty much reminds me of the Alex Rios thing, which was a complete smear job. But hey we couldn't use an outfielder hitting .295/.326/.512 with a 20/20 (and if anyone's going to give me all that closet racist hustle crap then go watch some highlights of the Sox/Tiger game today).

I will never, never understand why people think athletes should be role models or have the same level of accountability of people in other professions. Some accountant using a racial/homophobic slur can easily be replaced by another equivalent accountant; major league baseball players can't. There's a reason Tom Cruise and Mel Gibson keep making movies too.

e: just in case it wasn't clear, that's a general comment not directed at you
Not taking it personally, but I'm frankly astonished that you don't get why athletes have to be held to, if anything, a HIGHER standard of behaviour. To your own point, they are elite performers. Kids seldom grow up aspiring to be Dave the generic accountant. They DO aspire to be their favourite Sports Star. People in those roles have a highly public role and disproportionate degree of influence. You can certainly argue that it *shouldn't* be the case, but you cannot possibly argue that it isn't.

Part of the extraordinary compensation that elite athletes and performers receive is for maintaining at least a minimum degree of public decorum, and a price has to be paid for failing to live up to that responsibility.

That's not by any means to suggest that athletes are or should be better people - but they do need to make better decisions, and they have all the support and guidance they need to make better decisions.

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09-18-2012, 09:52 AM
  #116
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Ortiz is 36. He is one big injury away from extinction. Why would we give him a 2 year deal?
Same can be said of any player, really. Look no further than the Jays this year. And the guys gonna need an incentive to leave BOS....
The guy's an insane offensive weapon, there's no doubt about that. OPS of 1.026 this year over 90 games. Career .928.
It's not so bad at all if the second year is becomes guaranteed after X# of plate appearances in the first. Maybe that's the compromise?

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09-18-2012, 10:01 AM
  #117
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Same can be said of any player, really. Look no further than the Jays this year. And the guys gonna need an incentive to leave BOS....
The guy's an insane offensive weapon, there's no doubt about that. OPS of 1.026 this year over 90 games. Career .928.
It's not so bad at all if the second year is becomes guaranteed after X# of plate appearances in the first. Maybe that's the compromise?
People suggest "throwing money at him". Didn't we try and fail the same with Frank Thomas?

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09-18-2012, 10:06 AM
  #118
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I can see Ortiz landing in Texas especially if Hamilton and Napoli leave. There will be a void at DH possibly even if they do like Michael Young who sucks now Ortiz would be an upgrade. He did play a year with Adrian Beltre as well and if they get along that might help him land in Texas.

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09-18-2012, 10:10 AM
  #119
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It was probably a prank gone wrong, hopefully its all okay


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09-18-2012, 10:48 AM
  #120
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It was probably a prank gone wrong, hopefully its all okay
I don't think there's anything "okay" about it. As Jeff Blair pointed out this morning, it suggests a real lack of leadership and accountability in the locker room. Not that the prank was pulled behind the scenes, as inappropriate as it clearly is, but that *somebody* didn't speak up to stop this idiot from walking on the field with that on his face.

Even if he's actively disliked (which we don't know), you stop him from going on the field because he's wearing your uniform and representing your team, and *nobody* should be dumb enough to think that this wouldn't reflect poorly not just on Escobar, but on the team as a whole and all of his teammates.

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09-18-2012, 10:49 AM
  #121
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christ, Yunel. What an idiot. Seems like it's not just baseball IQ that's his problem. Might be the run-of-the-mill IQ that's a problem too.
I couldn't state this more clearly.

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09-18-2012, 10:56 AM
  #122
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I don't think there's anything "okay" about it. As Jeff Blair pointed out this morning, it suggests a real lack of leadership and accountability in the locker room. Not that the prank was pulled behind the scenes, as inappropriate as it clearly is, but that *somebody* didn't speak up to stop this idiot from walking on the field with that on his face.

Even if he's actively disliked (which we don't know), you stop him from going on the field because he's wearing your uniform and representing your team, and *nobody* should be dumb enough to think that this wouldn't reflect poorly not just on Escobar, but on the team as a whole and all of his teammates.
I like Blair and that's a real good point, it would still make news if the team had been successful this year but the team hasn't been good this year and if it is some prank or joke then where is the guy in the room to tell them to knock it off.

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09-18-2012, 11:09 AM
  #123
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Solid reasoning. Thomas sucked, so that means he will too...I don't see how signing Ortiz is in anyway shape or form a bad idea. A 3-4-5 slot of Bautista-EE and Ortiz makes me smile. It lets EE know you have all the confidence in him to play 1B and then you can have Cooper as the backup which isn't a bad option to have on the bench. I mean, imagine a top 6 of:

Lawrie
Rasmus
Bautista
EE
Ortiz
JPA

Does that not get anyone else excited?
Until you fix our pitching, there is no combination of batting order that's going to get me excited. I've never been as low about this team as I am after this year, because the fans and media all saw a hole in starting pitching that AA refused to address in the off-season, only to have it destroy our season.

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09-18-2012, 11:11 AM
  #124
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it's not necessarily homophobic, a word that is used way too often imo. it can be derogatory in context, but is also used in other ways, even in casual greeting in spanish culture. Growing up with a Uruguayan father, I would hear it being used as a word that meant "wimp /baby ",etc .
That being said though still a stupid thing to do , since speaking the language he should of known how the word translates in english.

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09-18-2012, 11:18 AM
  #125
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it's not necessarily homophobic, a word that is used way too often imo. it can be derogatory in context, but is also used in other ways, even in casual greeting in spanish culture. Growing up with a Uruguayan father, I would hear it being used as a word that meant "wimp /baby ",etc .
That being said though still a stupid thing to do , since speaking the language he should of known how the word translates in english.
You bring up a good point here. Everyone is so quick to get mad and defensive, but why not let him explain the context of the situation and what it means in spanish before we crucify him? Bad words can have completely different meanings in different cultures, let alone different languages.

For example, the c-word is one of the most derogatory and despicable insults you can throw out at someone, especially a woman in the North American context. But if you go to Australia, it's thrown around like it's nothing, often as a positive reference to the person "you funny c*** or you clever c***." I have cousins from Australia and was shocked to hear them throw it around so casually at first, then I realized it had a totally different context for them.

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