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Gillis: Potential Return For Luongo May Not Improve Canucks **Mod Warning #86**

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Old
09-18-2012, 09:21 AM
  #951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
I think a better question would be:

"Was he really top three at his position" in 2011.

Outside of a great year in 2007, he never was that good to begin with. He hasn't really gotten worse, its just that more people have been able to watch him play on a consistent basis.

Take a player like Tomas Kaberle for example. 5 years ago he was widely considered to be a top 5 defender in the league.

Have his skills really deteriorated that much, or was he perhaps grossly overrated to start with? Perhaps the system/team he played under hid his flaws.
Luongo doesn't play behind two Norris trophy defensemen and a defense first team like Pekka Rinne to hide his flaws. I can't believe you don't think his 2011 season was that good.

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09-18-2012, 09:22 AM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
There's no position more important than goaltending, and the odds of a goalie of Luongo's calibre and track record(i.e. not a Toskala) being available are next to zero.
Yep, that's probably what St Louis thought when they acquired Elliot, what Phoenix thought when they acquired Smith, and the other end when Philly brought in Bryz or Washington with Vokoun.

We also saw several good goalies miss the playoffs last year.

Goaltending is a fickle position, and there are plenty of examples of goalies of Luongo's calibre being available. Track record means squat when you go from a good defensive team to a poor one.

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09-18-2012, 09:30 AM
  #953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Yep, that's probably what St Louis thought when they acquired Elliot, what Phoenix thought when they acquired Smith, and the other end when Philly brought in Bryz or Washington with Vokoun.

We also saw several good goalies miss the playoffs last year.

Goaltending is a fickle position, and there are plenty of examples of goalies of Luongo's calibre being available. Track record means squat when you go from a good defensive team to a poor one.
Just because people think Ryan Miller and Cam Ward are great goalies doesn't make it true. Just like just because people think Luongo isn't an elite goalie doesn't make it true.

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09-18-2012, 09:35 AM
  #954
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Just because people think Ryan Miller and Cam Ward are great goalies doesn't make it true. Just like just because people think Luongo isn't an elite goalie doesn't make it true.
Just as people who think Luongo makes us a playoff team or cup contender doesn't make it true.

Khabibulan, Nabakov, Price, Backstrom, Hiller, Roloson, Ward, Miller, Lehtonen Kipper and others all missed the playoffs last year. Heck, even Quick almost missed the playoffs last year.

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09-18-2012, 09:43 AM
  #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I can't believe you don't think his 2011 season was that good.
Not just that season.

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09-18-2012, 10:11 AM
  #956
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Just as people who think Luongo makes us a playoff team or cup contender doesn't make it true.

Khabibulan, Nabakov, Price, Backstrom, Hiller, Roloson, Ward, Miller, Lehtonen Kipper and others all missed the playoffs last year. Heck, even Quick almost missed the playoffs last year.

You're right. It is not a given that Lu carries TO to the playoffs. There's just no guarantee. People just think this because TO had the offense to get there, while their GAA was porous.


But who knows? With a more defensive focus, they tighten up their GAA but their GF plummets?... Again, no guarantee either way.


What we do know is that TO has missed the post season since the lock out. And that Reimer could not be relied upon last year. It's all we have to go on. So given that last bit of information, we know that an upgrade in net can only improve their chances. It's up to Burke to decide if it's worth the stretch.

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09-18-2012, 10:19 AM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You're right.
What we do know is that TO has missed the post season since the lock out. And that Reimer could not be relied upon last year. It's all we have to go on. So given that last bit of information, we know that an upgrade in net can only improve their chances. It's up to Burke to decide if it's worth the stretch.
Or knowing Reimer was injured and our defence wasn't great, and we were in a playoff position most of the year and there is a reasonable possibility Kadri and a 1st will make a contribution in the future, that trading Kadri and a 1st for Luongo may not be a sound move, especially with a deep draft.

It's also reasonable that another goalie similar to Luongo will become available at a cheaper price with less risk or with better long term value.

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09-18-2012, 10:21 AM
  #958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Or knowing Reimer was injured and our defence wasn't great, and we were in a playoff position most of the year and there is a reasonable possibility Kadri and a 1st will make a contribution in the future, that trading Kadri and a 1st for Luongo may not be a sound move, especially with a deep draft.

It's also reasonable that another goalie similar to Luongo will become available at a cheaper price with less risk or with better long term value.
Really? Like who!? How often do top 5 goalies become available?

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09-18-2012, 10:26 AM
  #959
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so we've gotten back to "Luongo's just not that good", eh?

lol ...looking promising that we can keep this going all the way thru the lockout!

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09-18-2012, 10:28 AM
  #960
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Why would a rich man go to the "worst team in pro sports" and live in Toronto?

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09-18-2012, 10:32 AM
  #961
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Luongo doesn't play behind two Norris trophy defensemen and a defense first team like Pekka Rinne to hide his flaws. I can't believe you don't think his 2011 season was that good.
Couldn't you look at that in reverse too? If the team plays a defense-first system why pay for Luongo instead of getting the next Elliot, Smith, etc.? In a defense-first approach the goalie is possibly less important than the system, if you go on Elliot's and Smith's previous track records.

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Old
09-18-2012, 10:36 AM
  #962
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Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
so we've gotten back to "Luongo's just not that good", eh?

lol ...looking promising that we can keep this going all the way thru the lockout!
I like Luongo just fine, but I'm not certain about him being a top 5 goalie, and certainly don't think he'd have top 5 stats playing for the Leafs. And most importantly, after 30 years of trading draft picks and young players for vets in their 30's, I'd much prefer we didn't do that anymore.

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09-18-2012, 10:38 AM
  #963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeroggy View Post
Couldn't you look at that in reverse too? If the team plays a defense-first system why pay for Luongo instead of getting the next Elliot, Smith, etc.? In a defense-first approach the goalie is possibly less important than the system, if you go on Elliot's and Smith's previous track records.
Agreed, which is why it's confusing that Nashville would pay so much for Rinne. The Canucks, on the other hand, play an offensive style and don't have a true number 1 defenseman. This leads to breakdowns defensively, but luckily we've had Luongo to carry us through to back to back President's trophies and a SCF appearance that went 7 games. I'd hate to see where we'd be with an average goalie in net.

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09-18-2012, 10:39 AM
  #964
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Really? Like who!? How often do top 5 goalies become available?
I don't know, but we've got time to figure it out. Patience is a virtue and there is no need to speed up our rebuild because a 33 year old goalie with a bad contract is available today.

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09-18-2012, 10:40 AM
  #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
I like Luongo just fine, but I'm not certain about him being a top 5 goalie, and certainly don't think he'd have top 5 stats playing for the Leafs. And most importantly, after 30 years of trading draft picks and young players for vets in their 30's, I'd much prefer we didn't do that anymore.
That's fine because I wouldn't be happy with Kadri and a 1, unless the entire season is lost and we get another draft lottery. If you're willing to move Lupul then I'd be interested.

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09-18-2012, 10:41 AM
  #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
I don't know, but we've got time to figure it out. Patience is a virtue and there is no need to speed up our rebuild because a 33 year old goalie with a bad contract is available today.
It's not a bad contract. Just a contract most people don't understand.

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09-18-2012, 10:49 AM
  #967
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Why would a rich man go to the "worst team in pro sports" and live in Toronto?
Hey!

Don't pick on Toronto. Go bother Edmonton.

We want either Luongo or Cobie Smulders.

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09-18-2012, 10:53 AM
  #968
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
In the short term...Luongo. But the Leafs aren't a team with a short term outlook. In the medium term, it doesn't become as simple a choice between those two. Nazem Kadri's never actually going to make a significant impact on the ice for Toronto, but what he does represent is our most valuable trade commodity. You move him for Luongo, and all of a sudden you've got $4-5m less to work with every year, and start having to look at trading guys who are important to your team if you want to make an addition. Same goes for the first round pick.

James Reimer has every bit as good a chance (if not better, he's actually proven capable of NHL success) as being an elite goaltender as Markstrom. As mentioned earlier, if he can become that elite goaltender, he'd be far more valuable to the Leafs simply because he can grow with our young team.

As for creating a winning culture, it is extremely important. However, it cannot come at the cost of mortaging the future. Of course, there's a price at which it makes sense to take the risk on Luongo, but that price would have to be much lower than Kadri + a 1st. We wouldn't give that for Nicklas Backstrom, and he's more appealing to the Leafs than Luongo.
I was with you until you said Reimer has as good of a chance of being a decent goaltender as Markstrom.

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09-18-2012, 11:04 AM
  #969
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
It's not a bad contract. Just a contract most people don't understand.
I understand it just fine, thanks. And what I don't like is the length and the fact their are very few outs. His NTC is very limiting.

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09-18-2012, 11:05 AM
  #970
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I don't know what a top 5 goaltender poll is doing in a trade value thread. Every single Lu thread turns into this. If you want to post which goalie is better, we have a comparison thread.

Here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

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09-18-2012, 11:06 AM
  #971
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
That's fine because I wouldn't be happy with Kadri and a 1, unless the entire season is lost and we get another draft lottery. If you're willing to move Lupul then I'd be interested.
Lol, Lupul, with 1 year left on his deal makes very little sense for the Canucks, IMHO.

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09-18-2012, 11:22 AM
  #972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Lol, Lupul, with 1 year left on his deal makes very little sense for the Canucks, IMHO.
He makes more sense than someone like Kadri or Connolly as he actually addresses a need.

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09-18-2012, 11:38 AM
  #973
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The problem with Luongo is his contract, age and cap. Also the lack of need/quality goaltending throughout the league. There is no debate about his talent. In order to make a trade - you will need to take a heavy contract back. Especially now that there are talks that the cap could actually be pulled back. That's unfortunate that Gillis signed him to such a long contract because Luongo, with a shortened/more beneficial contract would definitely receive a much higher return.

His current contract will take him well into his 40's, with a cap hit of $5.33. Yes, I know that when he retires, it comes off the books, but his contract length is too much of a gamble for someone past his prime. I personally think Toronto should go after Luongo. But the return would need to have someone like Komisarek or Connolly coming back to make it work.

The lack of need around the league hurts the Canucks also. You can't compare this to Scott Gomez, because every night only one goalie gets to play. The position is so developed that the line between really good goalies and great goalies is now extremely thin. Every goalie in the league seems to be able to give their respective team a chance to win every night (with the exception of the leafs ). It also limits Gillis that Luongo has a no-trade clause.

There is no/zero debate about whether or not Luongo is still a good/great goaltender. I still think he is a great goaltender, and may even win back his job in Vancouver. It's just that the Canucks are not in a position of strength here. There is just not enough demand for a starting goalie. Florida has Markstrom waiting in the wings - so the time to trade him to Florida may be dwingiling (before they realize that he may be ready to take the reigns). Add the fact that his age/contract, payroll of your starter/backup goaltending duo and his cap hit, its not a strong place for demanding for the Canucks to be in.
Give us Connolly, provided Kadri and saying, MacArthur come with him, or swap Mac with a conditional first. Taking back a bad contract is not necessarily a problem for us. What is however is Toronto refusing to give up anything of actual value.

Komisarek is a no go. He has a NMC and a two year contract. Therefore, we have no way of getting rid of him. Connolly works for our third line and could temporarily fill in for Kesler.

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09-18-2012, 11:41 AM
  #974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Lol, Lupul, with 1 year left on his deal makes very little sense for the Canucks, IMHO.
Frankly, I'd do Lupul for Lu straight. Sure we take a risk but I am confident in Gillis' ability to sign important players. Lupul would be excellent on Kesler's line and take the pressure away from him being a one man army. That said, I doubt Toronto trades him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Hey!

Don't pick on Toronto. Go bother Edmonton.

We want either Luongo or Cobie Smulders.
*ahem*

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09-18-2012, 11:50 AM
  #975
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
It doesn't matter what price Toronto (fans) would pay... What could possibily convince Luongo to waive his NTC to go here:

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...dnt-do-my-job/

The guy who works with Luongo during the offseason... Think Allaire will be politically correct when talking just to Lu about the Toronto organization and their goaltending situation - and Lu happens to be a goaltender? Think, "don't kill your career my dear friend" may come up after talking about the weather and asking how's the family?

Jesus... what a gong show... Can Luongo to Toronto proposals finally be put to rest?

My vote...

Vancouver, Florida, and 3rd mystery team:

Florida: Luongo + ?
Vancouver: Petrovic + ?
Mystery Team: ?

Absolute "fair hockey deal" for all involved is the prerequisite... I want Florida to look especially good - I want Florida to be even more of a playoff-calibre team, without touching their top prospects... They didn't ask for this, but how do you say no to a top 5 goaltender who wants to play for your team? For pulling Gillis (and Luongo) out of a potential sticky situation, Tallon receives some sort of additional value (I understand that Luongo being top 5 is real valuable... but I want Tallon and Florida to receive even more value... I want the majority of Florida fans to feel great about getting Luongo, and excited about more potential current success - as well as future success by keeping the top 3 prospects)... Canucks need prospect depth who are just about ready to step into the line-up ("lesser" roles asap, with potential to be much more)... Can you make it work? Deal happens at the trade deadline... If you can't make it work, keep Luongo for a final playoff run... Does this sound good? Maybe after the CBA is negotiated it'll all be clear... But this is my vote for the Luongo end game...
Well i'll say this, if him leaving cost's us Luongo, that would upset me. But that would be the only reason. I am thrilled that he is gone. Maybe he should have worked with each goalie's skillset instead of trying to make Luongo/Giguere/Roy clones. Those were/are great goalies, but in the case of Gus and Reimer, that is not the style they play. So, if you make the NHL playing a certain style and are then told to literally change everything about how you play, chances are you will falter.

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