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Busting The Patrick Roy Myth

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Old
09-18-2012, 05:58 PM
  #1
PhillyBluesFan
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Busting The Patrick Roy Myth

Why do Hockey fans still believe the myth that Roy won with undermanned teams?

The 86 Habs were ridiculously talented with:
2 HOF defensemen(Chelios and Robinson)
3 great forwards(Lemiuex, Naslund and Smith)
2 of the greatest defensive forwards ever(Gainey and Carbonneau)

and on top of that Roy lucked out and didn't have to play a single division winner in the playoffs

Not repeating(or at least getting back to the Cup Finals) in 87 should of been considered a travesty. Roy got lit up like a Christmas tree against the Flyers in the playoffs.

The 93 Habs probable had the easiest road to the Cup in NHL history beating:
104 point Nords
86 point Sabres
87 point Isles
88 point Kings

Roy also got great goal support

The 96 Avs The most glaringly stupid of all the "Roy carried them on his back" narratives.

The 96 Avs were the highest scoring Stanley cup winner of the last 20 seasons.

The 01 Avs do I even have to go in to this? They were basically an all star team.

In conclusion we can say not only were none of the championship teams Roy played on were undermanned but they were so great that they probable could of won without a HOF caliber goalie. Roy also blew it on another team that should of at least played for a Stanley Cup(87 Habs)

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09-18-2012, 06:04 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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3 Conn Smythes + easily #2 in 1996. Roy was a top 2 player on 4 Cup winners - no other goalie in history has close to that, even when there were only 6 teams in the league.

You like save percentage based stats? Roy's playoff GVT blows every other goalie's out of the water.

The 1986 and 1993 Canadiens were very good teams, but outside of goal, they were easily the worst Cup winners of the pre-cap era since the expanded playoff format was introduced.

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09-18-2012, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
3 Conn Smythes + easily #2 in 1996. Roy was a top 2 player on 4 Cup winners - no other goalie in history has close to that, even when there we're only 6 teams in the league.

You like save percentage based stats? Roy's playoff GVT blows every other goalie's out of the water.

The 1986 and 1993 Canadiens were very good teams, but outside of goal, they were easily the worst Cup winners of the pre-cap era since the expanded playoff format was introduced.
OMG you can't be serious.

The Habs outside of goal had 2 HOF defensemen, 7 selke trophies and didn't play a single division winner. My grandmother could of played in the net and won a cup.

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09-18-2012, 06:18 PM
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Hawkey Town 18
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
OMG you can't be serious.

The Habs outside of goal had 2 HOF defensemen, 7 selke trophies and didn't play a single division winner. My grandmother could of played in the net and won a cup.
So which pre-cap Cup winning teams were worse than them?

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09-18-2012, 06:29 PM
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Stephen
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
OMG you can't be serious.

The Habs outside of goal had 2 HOF defensemen, 7 selke trophies and didn't play a single division winner. My grandmother could of played in the net and won a cup.
Which Stanley Cup winners were worse than the Montreal Canadiens of 1986 and 1993?

New York Islanders of 1980? Nope.
New York Islanders of 1981? Nope.
New York Islanders of 1982? Nope.
New York Islanders of 1983? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1984? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1985? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1987? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1988? Nope.
Calgary Flames of 1989 with 117 regular season points? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1990? Nope.
Pittsburgh Penguins of 1991? Nope.
Pittsburgh Penguins of 1992? Nope.
New York "Oilers" Rangers of 1994? Nope.
New Jersey Devils of 1995? Yep.
Colorado Avalanche of 1996? Nope.
Detroit Red Wings of 1997? Nope.
Detroit Red Wings of 1998? Nope.
Dallas Stars of 1999? Nope.
New Jersey Devils of 2000? Nope.
Colorado Avalanche of 2001? Nope.
Detroit Red Wings of 2002? Nope.
New Jersey Devils of 2003? Debatable.
Tampa Bay Lightning of 2004? Debatable.

So you basically have one championship team that had inferior personnel and two that are debatable in terms of the team in front of Roy compared to those 1986 and 1993 teams.

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09-18-2012, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
So which pre-cap Cup winning teams were worse than them?
89 Flames
90 Oilers
92 Pens etc etc etc

But who the heck cares they aren't playing teams from other years they were playing the 78 point Rangers. No goalie's EVER had better protection than Roy had in 86 and 87.

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09-18-2012, 06:32 PM
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There is no way you actually believe this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Which Stanley Cup winners were worse than the Montreal Canadiens of 1986 and 1993?

New York Islanders of 1980? Nope.
New York Islanders of 1981? Nope.
New York Islanders of 1982? Nope.
New York Islanders of 1983? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1984? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1985? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1987? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1988? Nope.
Calgary Flames of 1989 with 117 regular season points? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1990? Nope.
Pittsburgh Penguins of 1991? Nope.
Pittsburgh Penguins of 1992? Nope.
New York "Oilers" Rangers of 1994? Nope.
New Jersey Devils of 1995? Yep.
Colorado Avalanche of 1996? Nope.
Detroit Red Wings of 1997? Nope.
Detroit Red Wings of 1998? Nope.
Dallas Stars of 1999? Nope.
New Jersey Devils of 2000? Nope.
Colorado Avalanche of 2001? Nope.
Detroit Red Wings of 2002? Nope.
New Jersey Devils of 2003? Debatable.
Tampa Bay Lightning of 2004? Debatable.

So you basically have one championship team that had inferior personnel and two that are debatable in terms of the team in front of Roy compared to those 1986 and 1993 teams.

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09-18-2012, 06:34 PM
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I haven't seen anyone argue that either of the two Avs teams that won were untalented. So I'm not sure what you're upset about there. Roy was excellent in both playoff runs though and was one of the biggest reasons they won and was well-deserving of the Conn Smythe in 2001.

And you mentioned the great goal support he got on the Habs teams. Well, here are the lowest scoring Cup winning teams during the era when the NHL averaged over 6 goals per game ('71-'96). The number is goals per game during their playoff runs. Clearly, both his Montreal teams had poor goal support for a Stanley Cup Champion.

1. '86 Canadiens - 2.80
2. '75 Flyers - 3.12
3. '74 Flyers - 3.18
4. '93 Canadiens - 3.30
5. '95 Devils - 3.35

And mentioning the strength of Montreal's opponents in '93 doesn't prove anything about the talent level of that team.

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09-18-2012, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
My grandmother could of played in the net and won a cup.
If you prefer hyperbole to facts, you may prefer the general NHL Talk board to this one.

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09-18-2012, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
89 Flames
90 Oilers
92 Pens etc etc etc

But who the heck cares they aren't playing teams from other years they were playing the 78 point Rangers. No goalie's EVER had better protection than Roy had in 86 and 87.
First off, the '89 Flames were stacked, the '90 Oilers were still a very, very good team without Gretzky and the '92 Pens...are you freakin kidding me?!?!?

Second, this is the second time you have made reference to '87. I already completely destroyed what you said about '87 the first time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
That is a load of BS.

Any HOF goalie playing with Robinson and Chelios SHOULD win the cup. Not to mention 3 great forwards in Lemiuexm Naslund and Smith. If anything its a fail that the Habs didn't get back to the Cup finals because Roy played like absolute crap against the Flyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
No actually, the only BS here is what you're trying to spout.
Big Bird was a declining 36 year old and and Chelios was a season removed from being a rookie in '86.
Bobby smith was a good player but he sure as hell wasn't the superstar you're making him out to be lol.
Lemieux was a clutch playoff goal scorer but he also wasn't a top player.
Naslund was very good but again, he was no super star, sorry.

Where you truly show your knowledge, or in this case, supreme lack of, is mention of the Flyers series in '87.
Considering Roy was injured earlier in the playoffs, tried to come back in Game 4 but was obviously not ready yet and let in 4 goals on 20 shots before giving way back to Hayward. It was the only game he played in that series sooooo....I'm not sure what the hell you're trying to talk about!


Here's the Box scores from all 6 games
Game 1 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870070
Game 2 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870072
Game 3 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870074
Game 4 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870076
Game 5 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870078
Game 6 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870080

Third, there is NO myth, only FACT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
His absolutely ridiculous and insane playoff OT record of 40-16 (24-6 as a Hab!!!), next closest is Belfour at 22-24.
The fact that out of the playoff series he lost, he lost more of them in 7 games than he lost in 4, 5 or 6 games combined.
That he has close to 40 more PO wins than any other goalie 151-94 (.616 winning %) to Brodeur's 113-91(.554 winning %).


Roy's playoff resume:
Total Series: 43
Series wins: 32
Series losses: 11 (1 in 4 games, 2 in 5 games, 2 in 6 games and 6 in 7 games)

Basically, if you had Roy in net, your team only had about a 11% chance of being eliminated in less than 7 games and about a 75% chance of winning.
THAT is ridiculous!

It's one thing to believe Hasek is the better overall goalie but to actually try and present Roy's playoff supremacy as a myth...that my friend is just pure unadulterated ignorance and bullcrap!!!


Also, even if Roy was as protected as you say, he also got some of the lowest goal support in the last 40 years. Yes, even less than Hasek got in the middle of the dead puck era!


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 09-18-2012 at 06:55 PM.
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09-18-2012, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Which Stanley Cup winners were worse than the Montreal Canadiens of 1986 and 1993?

New York Islanders of 1980? Nope.
New York Islanders of 1981? Nope.
New York Islanders of 1982? Nope.
New York Islanders of 1983? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1984? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1985? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1987? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1988? Nope.
Calgary Flames of 1989 with 117 regular season points? Nope.
Edmonton Oilers of 1990? Nope.
Pittsburgh Penguins of 1991? Nope.
Pittsburgh Penguins of 1992? Nope.
New York "Oilers" Rangers of 1994? Nope.
New Jersey Devils of 1995? Yep.
Colorado Avalanche of 1996? Nope.
Detroit Red Wings of 1997? Nope.
Detroit Red Wings of 1998? Nope.
Dallas Stars of 1999? Nope.
New Jersey Devils of 2000? Nope.
Colorado Avalanche of 2001? Nope.
Detroit Red Wings of 2002? Nope.
New Jersey Devils of 2003? Debatable.
Tampa Bay Lightning of 2004? Debatable.

So you basically have one championship team that had inferior personnel and two that are debatable in terms of the team in front of Roy compared to those 1986 and 1993 teams.
1995 Devils that ended the season were a much better team than either of Roy's Cup winning teams. They were bascially the same team as the 1994 team (minus their scoring line centers), a team that was second best in the league. They started the season in a slump because Scott Stevens was playing poorly because of a contract dispute. By the playoffs, they had a #1 center acquired at the deadline and a Stevens with a new attitude. That team would have been much higher than a 5th seed if the season was 82 games long, not 48.


IMO, only Tampa Bay is debatable, but their offense blows Montreal's out of the water.

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09-18-2012, 06:47 PM
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Interesting take on the legacy of Roy. However, you've made the same mistake as many posters - using the either/or theory. Like in the 72 series Shame or Glory thread, its not one or the other, its both. Yeah, Roy had his bad moments, but he also had some very good ones. He stole some games and lost some in both the great years and bad years. Plus, it always takes a team to win, never one player.

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09-18-2012, 06:52 PM
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Interesting take on the legacy of Roy. However, you've made the same mistake as many posters - using the either/or theory. Like in the 72 series Shame or Glory thread, its not one or the other, its both. Yeah, Roy had his bad moments, but he also had some very good ones. He stole some games and lost some in both the great years and bad years. Plus, it always takes a team to win, never one player.
All I am saying is the lame media driven narrative that he carried any of those teams is a 100% myth. He's obviously a great player but he carried nothing he was simply a great player on great teams

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09-18-2012, 06:57 PM
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89 Flames worse??

Gilmour
Fleury
Macinnis--conn smythe
Vernon
suter
Otto
Nieuwendyk
Joe Mullen

they were stacked my friend.

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09-18-2012, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
All I am saying is the lame media driven narrative that he carried any of those teams is a 100% myth. He's obviously a great player but he carried nothing he was simply a great player on great teams
Since you've founded your entire theory on this "lame media driven narrative", why not provide some examples of this?

You know, before developing your own narrative?

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09-18-2012, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
All I am saying is the lame media driven narrative that he carried any of those teams is a 100% myth. He's obviously a great player but he carried nothing he was simply a great player on great teams
Since I already proved that you didn't actually see any of the games in '87, I don't think it would be a stretch to assume you didn't see any of the games in '86 either.
Roy was nothing short of spectacular in '86. It was bar none, the finest performance of his career and that's saying something.

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09-18-2012, 07:00 PM
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... oye vey. Look, Roy brought so much more to the game than what we saw him "leave" on the ice, in the crease. The guy was a locker room leader, by example, tough as nails mentally, completely focused, a real "throwback". Communicated with his players on the ice, behind closed doors. A true "Superstar" Goaltender. Just knowing he was back there gave the teams in front of him the kind of confidence & hubris necessary to win, even when seriously out-gunned & over-powered; willing to lay their bodies on the line to help him out. Ya he was "arrogant" and difficult sometimes, the best in most walks of life usually are. That guy was a "player". Knew the game, the position, the angles, the arts of netminding. Great skater, saw the game from 30' above the ice surface as readily as he saw it through a tangle of legs & sticks in a screen. Exceptional talent. Fair game however not to like him as a person. Your prerogative. Arrogance can breed contempt.

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09-18-2012, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Doomsday Device View Post
I haven't seen anyone argue that either of the two Avs teams that won were untalented. So I'm not sure what you're upset about there. Roy was excellent in both playoff runs though and was one of the biggest reasons they won and was well-deserving of the Conn Smythe in 2001.

And you mentioned the great goal support he got on the Habs teams. Well, here are the lowest scoring Cup winning teams during the era when the NHL averaged over 6 goals per game ('71-'96). The number is goals per game during their playoff runs. Clearly, both his Montreal teams had poor goal support for a Stanley Cup Champion.

1. '86 Canadiens - 2.80
2. '75 Flyers - 3.12
3. '74 Flyers - 3.18
4. '93 Canadiens - 3.30
5. '95 Devils - 3.35

And mentioning the strength of Montreal's opponents in '93 doesn't prove anything about the talent level of that team.
Why are you bringing up teams from other years? Compare them to the teams they played in those years. He was playing behind 7 selke and 5 norris awards for gods sake.

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09-18-2012, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
All I am saying is the lame media driven narrative that he carried any of those teams is a 100% myth. He's obviously a great player but he carried nothing he was simply a great player on great teams
No very bad team will ever win the cup with an all-star.

The carried the team narative is relative of winning championship team.

Hasek also had playoff success only with good team, but relative to stanley cup finalist the sabres were not great (same thing for the 93 Habs good team, but not great), and they did not face Boston or the Pens in the way neither it is true.

When you see the list of cup winning team, the 93 Habs team with no Roy in goal is at the very bottom imo, with the Lighting.

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09-18-2012, 07:04 PM
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same thing for the 93 Habs good team, but not great), and they did not face Boston or the Pens in the way neither it is true.
So you agree of the teams they actually played that year the Habs were the best and it wasn't some lame Roy is so clutch hepulled a rabbit out of his hat and stole Cup nonsense right?

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09-18-2012, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Roy was nothing short of spectacular in '86.
... trying to recall the picture Rhiessan. Was that the last year he wore the old Cooper GP59's XXXL's with the more modern blocker/catcher from Heaton (or Brown or whomever) & hybrid mask? I remember stuff like that by equipment & branding. Its a blurr of absolute brilliance in the crease of rouge-white-bleu on faint recollection; but still there....

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09-18-2012, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... trying to recall the picture Rhiessan. Was that the last year he wore the old Cooper GP59's XXXL's with the more modern blocker/catcher from Heaton (or Brown or whomever) & hybrid mask? I remember stuff like that by equipment & branding. Its a blurr of absolute brilliance in the crease of rouge-white-bleu on faint recollection; but still there....


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09-18-2012, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Why are you bringing up teams from other years? Compare them to the teams they played in those years. He was playing behind 7 selke and 5 norris awards for gods sake.
You said

Quote:
Roy also got great goal support
I showed that he got poor goal support for a Cup Winner so what you said was incorrect.

And you do realize that we can't compare them to Montreal's opponents during their Cup runs because if they don't score well in the playoffs, that would be because they were trying to score against Roy. So that would prove nothing and would in fact make Roy look better, which would go against your "agenda."

Anyways, please continue. You're trying very hard to antagonize people (which I suspect is your real goal) and your efforts are entertaining.

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09-18-2012, 07:38 PM
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... thanks Rhiessan! Now I remember. Old school
trapper with cheater & pads, plain mask but for the decal.

btw, re-call who his backup was that year?

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09-18-2012, 07:49 PM
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... thanks Rhiessan! Now I remember. Old school
trapper with cheater & pads, plain mask but for the decal.

btw, re-call who his backup was that year?
Pretty sure that's Doug Soetaert in the video there standing on the blueline in the background. Steve Penny wore #37 and it would of been visible. Doug was #1 I believe and was the only one that had a stach. At least I don't recall Penny ever having one.



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