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Old
09-18-2012, 03:00 PM
  #201
Odelein24
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Epic alright... did you forget the

The players share in zero of the costs...do you think that the 250 Million dollar rink they play in, just got built without someone paying for it...travel costs, planes, the hotels, the list goes on and on...the players are considered somewhat, the product, but come on man...Owners own, and players should play...
Just a quick note on arenas. Even without hockey, many of them are still cash cows.

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Old
09-18-2012, 05:38 PM
  #202
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Actually, the players pay 100% of the leagues costs. With the share of revenue the owners don't pay them to do their work. I pay to see the players, not the owners. The owners do no work. They live off of the work of others.

It's called Capitalism. The players produce the product, no one else, not one other person produces the NHL product except the players.

But the owners own that product, protected by ironclad property laws that were designed for them, not the players, not you, and not me. There it is. And don't tell me the owners provide the venue, the risk. They don't. They borrow it, from banks, and profit from it. Hugely.

Anyone except a factory owner on this board who sides with Capital here is a mug. It's like middle class workers in the US voting Republican, against their own interests. Mugs. Idiots. Suckers in suits going to their ****** salary job every day.

Know your place. Middle class bourgeois, factory worker, dentist, lawyer, does not matter. If you ain't a capitalist, don't side with them.

Nothing has changed. Wake up.

Go read some Marx.

Man what an epic rant! I needed that!
Great ****ing idea.

Screw the owners who are investing their money in a hockey franchise.

Take their teams away from them (and since someone will be needed to PAY the players) and give it to the governments of Canada and the US.

Government (Socialist) Hockey League...........replaces the NHL.

No longer do players have to perform at a high level. The government will guarantee their jobs and salary, regardless of performance.

No longer will skill be a requirement to get into the GHL. It's more about filling quotas.

And no more contract negotiations. If the players in the GHL need more money, Ben Bernanke will simply print more American dollars (qualitative hockey easing).

Its all fun and games until you run out of other people's money.

Go GHL!!!!!!!

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Old
09-18-2012, 05:47 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
That fixes nothing. Take the Coyotes & Islanders out, and with the current cap system, the next 2 teams above them just become the "weakest sisters" because the cap ceiling & floor go up and those next 2 teams now have to pay out even more in salaries than they already did.

The core problem is that the gap between the top revenue earners (Leafs, Rangers, Habs, etc) and the rest of the league has grown even larger than it was in 2004. Thus, league & average revenue goes up, but the distribution of that revenue is even more distorted than it was. I think 18-20 teams now sit below the league average! It doesn't matter how you tweak the percentages - a league-average system without significant revenue sharing will always produce weak teams that have to spend disproportionate shares of their revenue on player payroll to make the cap floor.

Nothing I've seen from the NHL indicates they even acknowledge this as a problem, let alone want to fix it. Bettman specifically called the NHLPA's revenue sharing proposals a "distraction". No, the NHL seems to quite like having a few rich clubs make gobs of money - so long as said clubs don't have to dole that money out to players or weaker clubs - and many clubs that struggle. With weak clubs, the league gets a nice hammer to pound on the players come CBA time.

I don't back the owners this time. Not until they acknowledge the true problem that needs fixing.
Perhaps not putting teams in locations where they can't support hockey is a start.
Contraction is the next step. What you fail to realize is that with just 2 clubs gone that will allow the bigger earners to keep a larger share of their profits thus grumbling less when they do split the kitty. It's just plain foolish to keep sending money to teams that will never be able to make it - relocate or contract
And you and the players can leave the profit sharing off the table.
Unless the players are willing to share some of their profits

The owners are in it for more than their health and possible glory - Its a business

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Old
09-18-2012, 05:49 PM
  #204
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Do you guys find it strange to hear that some of the guys are going to Europe to play for peanuts, while standing down on the league's offers? Seems weird...

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Old
09-18-2012, 06:40 PM
  #205
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Apparently the guys (Habs, Ex Habs & Locals) skating at the training center in Brossard have indirect support from the Habs medical staff.

In other words, they are there to tend to the injured. Now nobody is using Habs gear, and the players do not use the Habs locker room, but there is some kind of understanding between the players and the Habs that there is minimal supervision of what's happening there. It's in the Habs' best interest for when if the season start that the guys are well trained. And since guys like Hamrlik (who is pretty much said to still be a Hab at heart and is said to wish he had never left) and Fleury are there, well, it ain't an Habs training camp.

Per 98,5FM

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Old
09-18-2012, 07:18 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Great ****ing idea.

Screw the owners who are investing their money in a hockey franchise.

Take their teams away from them (and since someone will be needed to PAY the players) and give it to the governments of Canada and the US.

Government (Socialist) Hockey League...........replaces the NHL.

No longer do players have to perform at a high level. The government will guarantee their jobs and salary, regardless of performance.

No longer will skill be a requirement to get into the GHL. It's more about filling quotas.

And no more contract negotiations. If the players in the GHL need more money, Ben Bernanke will simply print more American dollars (qualitative hockey easing).

Its all fun and games until you run out of other people's money.

Go GHL!!!!!!!
Both you and the poster you responded to are are living in a dream world. You're obviously affiliated with the Tea Party.

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Old
09-18-2012, 07:22 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Do you guys find it strange to hear that some of the guys are going to Europe to play for peanuts, while standing down on the league's offers? Seems weird...
They expect the owners to crack and give in to their demands, which would be more lucrative for them than what the NHL is currently offering. The same principle applies to every strike.

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Old
09-18-2012, 07:29 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Both you and the poster you responded to are are living in a dream world. You're obviously affiliated with the Tea Party.
Nah. I believe in countering absurdity with absurdity.

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Old
09-18-2012, 07:30 PM
  #209
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I like how people claim the owners take 100% of the risk.

Those arenas are usually built with mostly public funds and those tickets are bought by the fans and also the merchandise.

When you think about it the fans have all the cost and all they want in return is an exciting game.

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Old
09-18-2012, 09:12 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
I like how people claim the owners take 100% of the risk.

Those arenas are usually built with mostly public funds and those tickets are bought by the fans and also the merchandise.

When you think about it the fans have all the cost and all they want in return is an exciting game.
You're seeing only part of the picture. No one is forcing you to buy souvenirs or tickets, for that matter. Your costs in watching games live or on pay TV are directly related to players' salaries not only if the owners make a profit but also if the owners break even or take a loss.

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Old
09-18-2012, 10:15 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
They expect the owners to crack and give in to their demands, which would be more lucrative for them than what the NHL is currently offering. The same principle applies to every strike.
It's not a strike, it's a lockout.

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Old
09-19-2012, 02:06 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I'm a socialist myself, but a lot of this analysis goes out the window when discussing professional sports, since the way it is today is such a product of modern capitalism.

Professional athletes do deserve certain rights and that's why players unions are historically important - wages that will last beyond their relatively short careers, some job protection so they aren't disposed at will (even crap players are under contract), the right to proper supervision and protection against unneccesary health risks. But they aren't on the same "side" as the other workers, the ones who are really getting screwed here. The players want further deregulation, so they can put more in their contracts.

It just doesn't make sense within the current system for the players to get more than 50% of revenue.
Total revenue or the arbitrarily decided "hockey related revenue". I don't really side with either party but it's a bit harder to feel sorry for the owners when this is really the system they wanted. In a free market they basically had the option of running their businesses properly and paying the players essentially what ever % of revenue they could reasonably afford to pay them. Unfortunately for them they were unable to properly run their businesses and that's why we're in for our 2nd sustained work stoppage in a decade.

So to me it's not that the players deserve X percent of revenues, it's that the owners traded in the ability to dictate what % of revenues their employers get for cost certainty last time because they were too stupid to figure it out in a comparatively free market. Also, from what I understand the players were willing to take a 49 million dollar hard cap that didn't move, the owners were the ones who wanted it tied to revenue to cover themselves. Poor decisions.

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Old
09-19-2012, 03:00 AM
  #213
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Holy **** man, you have the situation in total reverse. Just the fact the league caused the work stoppage should tell you a little something about who is extorting who here
i feel like im gonna go have to wash myself after saying this, but i have to agree with SH. really.

fehr knew a year ago but has been stalling.

fehr and the PA has said that they would like to start the season as a status quo. but that's just a not very transparent plot by him to stall until he gets maximum leverage: right before the playoffs. he pulled that **** once before and if you were an expos fan, i don't have to remind you, you know very well. in that case, OF COURSE the owners are gonna lockout the players. they are not THAT stupid.

right now, fehr is stalling, again, he wants to push the negotiation to when he'll have maximum leverage even in the event of a lockout: the winter classic when some of the two most powerful owners in the league will stand to lose millions from not have a winter classic. that's fehr's maximum leverage point. so he's gonna scratch his nutsack until that point when he believes he is most likely to get the best possible deal out of the owners.

he's got every player eating out of the palm of his hand, amazing really... and slightly OT, but everytime a player says "how would you feel if your boss gave you a 20% pay decrease?"

****ing **** right off you ignorant ****... im sure the drop from 1,000,000 is the same than the drop from 35,000. and that's what pisses me off. the players have it very, very good, but somehow, that's still not good enough and fehr has them convinced of that

donald ****ing fehr is a dick of the highest order, but the man is very, very good at what he does, same goes for bettman

so to use SH's words (less likely to get a slap on the wrist than if i'd use mine), i wish he would simply 'disappear'...

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Old
09-19-2012, 07:27 AM
  #214
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Flashback

What happened to Hockey?

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Old
09-19-2012, 09:25 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by maryannshabs View Post
Just came from a couple of other Habs fan sites and seeral fans I totally respect are saying a couple of things related to the Canadiens and this current lockout. First, we lost two of our best offensive players last year in Andrei Kostitsyn and Mike Cammalleir, and the team was already offensively challenged. With that in mind, and knowing we didnt add anyone to tke up the offensive slack, most fans concede the Habs will at Least finish with as bad a record as we did last year, and that was as cellar dwellar in the Easten Conference. Now, with the lockout, the team Should draft no lower than Third overall again in 2013, and with Three second rounders, all we have to do is let the season passs us by, and we have already improved with another excellent draft a year from now, And we don't have to be embarrassed by the play of the team once again. To many, the lockout is a Win Win situation for the team and it's long suffering fans.
Please do some research before you post.

You are entirely, completely, 100% wrong. Post lockout, the draft last time was tilted toward teams that did not make the playoffs the last three years. The draft will likely go to the NHL mean over the last 3 years , not last year's season results.

A lost season is a disaster for the Habs. This was the second and final year we could have drafted top 5 overall, if we had played.

If we miss a year, we now may draft in any position, the percentages of a good pick for us in a post lockout lottery are terrible, and in no way reflecty the state the team is in now.

Yet another awful, awful NHL ****up.

The unfairness of this lockout, if they revert to a 3 year mean lottery, is devastating to the Habs.

Otherwise your post was correct.

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Old
09-19-2012, 10:08 AM
  #216
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Old
09-19-2012, 10:21 AM
  #217
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Ok... Gotta love Taiwan, lol

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Old
09-19-2012, 10:36 AM
  #218
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It seems to me that if the owners structured an offer in such a way that players would not have to give money back off their current contracts, that it would have a good chance. A salary freeze until revenue increases to the point where players receive 50%. With that deal on the table, I bet self-interest would trump the long term battle, from the players' POV. The owners are playing the long game anyway, they'd get to their target soon enough.

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Old
09-19-2012, 10:55 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Great ****ing idea.

Screw the owners who are investing their money in a hockey franchise.

Take their teams away from them (and since someone will be needed to PAY the players) and give it to the governments of Canada and the US.

Government (Socialist) Hockey League...........replaces the NHL.

No longer do players have to perform at a high level. The government will guarantee their jobs and salary, regardless of performance.

No longer will skill be a requirement to get into the GHL. It's more about filling quotas.

And no more contract negotiations. If the players in the GHL need more money, Ben Bernanke will simply print more American dollars (qualitative hockey easing).

Its all fun and games until you run out of other people's money.

Go GHL!!!!!!!
In the land of laissez faire (bank bailouts aside) many NHL franchises operate in govt built arenas and receive generous tax breaks. The Predators, for example, had a $230-million arena built for them and since 1997, local govts have given the franchise over $100-million in subsidies.

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Old
09-19-2012, 11:07 AM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
Apparently the guys (Habs, Ex Habs & Locals) skating at the training center in Brossard have indirect support from the Habs medical staff.

In other words, they are there to tend to the injured. Now nobody is using Habs gear, and the players do not use the Habs locker room, but there is some kind of understanding between the players and the Habs that there is minimal supervision of what's happening there. It's in the Habs' best interest for when if the season start that the guys are well trained. And since guys like Hamrlik (who is pretty much said to still be a Hab at heart and is said to wish he had never left) and Fleury are there, well, it ain't an Habs training camp.

Per 98,5FM
That's really awesome to hear. With any luck, the the season is gonna start on time and the Habs are gonna be the only prepared team.

Cup baby!

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Old
09-19-2012, 11:36 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
That fixes nothing. Take the Coyotes & Islanders out, and with the current cap system, the next 2 teams above them just become the "weakest sisters" because the cap ceiling & floor go up and those next 2 teams now have to pay out even more in salaries than they already did.

The core problem is that the gap between the top revenue earners (Leafs, Rangers, Habs, etc) and the rest of the league has grown even larger than it was in 2004. Thus, league & average revenue goes up, but the distribution of that revenue is even more distorted than it was. I think 18-20 teams now sit below the league average! It doesn't matter how you tweak the percentages - a league-average system without significant revenue sharing will always produce weak teams that have to spend disproportionate shares of their revenue on player payroll to make the cap floor.

Nothing I've seen from the NHL indicates they even acknowledge this as a problem, let alone want to fix it. Bettman specifically called the NHLPA's revenue sharing proposals a "distraction". No, the NHL seems to quite like having a few rich clubs make gobs of money - so long as said clubs don't have to dole that money out to players or weaker clubs - and many clubs that struggle. With weak clubs, the league gets a nice hammer to pound on the players come CBA time.

I don't back the owners this time. Not until they acknowledge the true problem that needs fixing.
I've the same opinion.

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Old
09-19-2012, 11:55 AM
  #222
compile
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Can anyone tell me what business will give 57% of their revenue to empolyees?
I don't care for hockey related revenue I want to know a company that pays out that much so I can send my resume to them.

Its time athletes be brought back to reality, make millions to play a ****ing sport! Our society is completely ****ed up that athletes deserve more then a neuro-scientist etc. My god you are playing a game which doe not need ANY education!!!!!!!!!

Suck it up butter cup and be happy that you can play a ****ing sport to earn a multi-million dollar living, while the rest of society has to struggle to make ends meat or has to work 360 days a year.

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Old
09-19-2012, 11:58 AM
  #223
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To those who support either the players or owners:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=405629

These are the real people who will suffer because of this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
Apparently the guys (Habs, Ex Habs & Locals) skating at the training center in Brossard have indirect support from the Habs medical staff.

In other words, they are there to tend to the injured. Now nobody is using Habs gear, and the players do not use the Habs locker room, but there is some kind of understanding between the players and the Habs that there is minimal supervision of what's happening there. It's in the Habs' best interest for when if the season start that the guys are well trained. And since guys like Hamrlik (who is pretty much said to still be a Hab at heart and is said to wish he had never left) and Fleury are there, well, it ain't an Habs training camp.

Per 98,5FM
It's smart of the organization to somewhat turn a blind eye to this even if they support the lockout.

Interesting to hear that Beniot Pouliot is there after his comments last year.


Last edited by Et le But: 09-19-2012 at 12:04 PM.
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Old
09-19-2012, 12:31 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by BrokenRetina View Post
Can anyone tell me what business will give 57% of their revenue to empolyees?
I don't care for hockey related revenue I want to know a company that pays out that much so I can send my resume to them.

Its time athletes be brought back to reality, make millions to play a ****ing sport! Our society is completely ****ed up that athletes deserve more then a neuro-scientist etc. My god you are playing a game which doe not need ANY education!!!!!!!!!

Suck it up butter cup and be happy that you can play a ****ing sport to earn a multi-million dollar living, while the rest of society has to struggle to make ends meat or has to work 360 days a year.
OK, but by the same token, "our society is completely ****ed up that" investors (a job that needs no qualification other than having money) make "more than a neuro-scientist, etc." (farmer, teacher, soldier, nurse...). Bringing that kind of morality into the equation, criticizing players vs owners doesn't really work, they are all richer than they should be, in a completely just world - it's more the value that society places on the highest level of pro sports that should be questioned. Of course, you and I are both posting on an NHL message board, so, judge not...

As far as "My god you are playing a game which doe not need ANY education!!!!!!!!!" goes - most of these players have been spending most of their time honing their skills since kindergarten. Since the age of 16, they have invested enough of their lives in making the pros that most do not have a higher education outside hockey. When posters here read about the hours Galchenyuk spends working out every day in the offseason, we "oooh" and "ahhh" and praise him for devoting his waking hours to maximize his chances of being a good player one day. The time put in before players reach the NHL is an education. Just because playing the game is fun, doesn't mean the road isn't hard.

In the end, I don't really care what percentage of revenues end up going to the players (although I do understand wanting contracts to be honored as written - as I wrote in another post, I bet players would accept a gradual slide to 50%, as long as it was accomplished with a freeze rather than an immediate reduction). But, being jealous of the salaries going to men who play a game, while assuming that owners (all of whom had enormous wealth before ever getting involved in hockey) have more in common with the average worker bee... it doesn't make much sense to me.

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09-19-2012, 02:38 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by BrokenRetina View Post
Can anyone tell me what business will give 57% of their revenue to empolyees?
I don't care for hockey related revenue I want to know a company that pays out that much so I can send my resume to them.

Its time athletes be brought back to reality, make millions to play a ****ing sport! Our society is completely ****ed up that athletes deserve more then a neuro-scientist etc. My god you are playing a game which doe not need ANY education!!!!!!!!!

Suck it up butter cup and be happy that you can play a ****ing sport to earn a multi-million dollar living, while the rest of society has to struggle to make ends meat or has to work 360 days a year.
You're neglecting to mention that the employees are also the product/service in this instance. In which case: most business sectors pay that amount, or more, for their primary product/service offered. I can't think of many businesses that wouldn't face significant costs to revenues, in fact.

Your latter two paragraphs demonstrate a complete disregard, or unawareness, to the way in which society is structured. Salaries are not predicated on what is supposedly deserved.

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