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Old
09-18-2012, 06:00 PM
  #151
Barney Gumble
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Enstrom had the kind of year we keep hoping that Edler will and he got paid. I see no reason why Gillis shouldn't wait and see if Edler can put it together before giving him that kind of payday.
I wouldn't deal Edler for Enstrom straight-up. We're already kind of 'smallish' on the back-end. Have to look beyond just the "stats" in this case.

Now if only Edler could only throw more of his devastating hits.....

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09-18-2012, 06:18 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
This is just you're opinion based on your own personal feelings. Your opinion is not supported by production that is backed up by statistical and advanced statistical analysis.

It's funny how everyone is happy about Gillis taking a moneyball approach, but when it goes against one of their favorite players all of a sudden we throw those principals out the window? People were also quick to use these advanced stats to suggest that Cody Hodgson wasn't that good and to slam him after we moved him, but when we are using them to judge one of our own players we throw the numbers out the window?

Consistency people...based on the evidence, Edler is NOT our best defenseman, nor is he being treated like he is by our team (nor should he be based on his production). There's more value in a defenseman than power play points, otherwise Marc Andre Bergeron would be a highly coveted highly paid defenseman.


I think defensively all 3 are very close. Offensively is where Edler seperates himself though. His vision, passing and shot are much better than the rest. There is a reason he plays on our PP unit. Sorry but I don't need advanced statistical analysis to see which defensemen is better...that's ridiculous....i'll just stick to watching.

And it's weird you use consistency as the backbone of your argument when Bieksa has probably been our most inconsistent defensemen over the last few years. If Edler had not been injured last year he would have put up back-back-back 40 pt seasons. How much more consistency do you need? Bieksa, on the other hand, has had MORE injury issues and hasn't produced as many points as Edler in that time. Weird argument.

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09-18-2012, 06:33 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
I think defensively all 3 are very close. Offensively is where Edler seperates himself though. His vision, passing and shot are much better than the rest. There is a reason he plays on our PP unit. Sorry but I don't need advanced statistical analysis to see which defensemen is better...that's ridiculous....i'll just stick to watching.

And it's weird you use consistency as the backbone of your argument when Bieksa has probably been our most inconsistent defensemen over the last few years. If Edler had not been injured last year he would have put up back-back-back 40 pt seasons. How much more consistency do you need? Bieksa, on the other hand, has had MORE injury issues and hasn't produced as many points as Edler in that time. Weird argument.
Edler has certain offensive attributes such as his shot that make him a better fit for the role he works in on the PP, but if we are talking about who's better offensively give me the guy who's dominated even strength points while playing against tougher competition.

Why is it ridiculous to refer to advanced stats? Your opinion can be swayed by your own personal feelings, whereas the stats cut through all that and report actual production. That's not refutable. The stats are what they are and they tell a story that Bieksa is the better defenseman, so it would be absurd to hand out a contract to Edler in the $6M neighborhood. It would make Edler overpaid.

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Old
09-18-2012, 07:14 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Edler has certain offensive attributes such as his shot that make him a better fit for the role he works in on the PP, but if we are talking about who's better offensively give me the guy who's dominated even strength points while playing against tougher competition.

Why is it ridiculous to refer to advanced stats? Your opinion can be swayed by your own personal feelings, whereas the stats cut through all that and report actual production. That's not refutable. The stats are what they are and they tell a story that Bieksa is the better defenseman, so it would be absurd to hand out a contract to Edler in the $6M neighborhood. It would make Edler overpaid.
Only in your opinion would this statistical analysis make Bieksa a better defenseman. That is your problem, my friend.

Most of us watch both Edler and Bieksa and see a much smoother, more intelligent and responsible defender in Edler. If even strength points is your backbone you don't have much a of a leg to stand on.

Like I said, i'll continue watching the on-ice product both defensemen bring. You keep you statistical analysis going and we'll see which defensman gets a bigger contract. When this is all said and done, and Edler signs, I think we're looking at the 5.8M/yr range. That's your hometown bargain. Edler doesn't deserve to be making the same as the others, he will continue to get better while the others have already peaked.

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09-18-2012, 07:24 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
Only in your opinion would this statistical analysis make Bieksa a better defenseman. That is your problem, my friend.

Most of us watch both Edler and Bieksa and see a much smoother, more intelligent and responsible defender in Edler. If even strength points is your backbone you don't have much a of a leg to stand on.

Like I said, i'll continue watching the on-ice product both defensemen bring. You keep you statistical analysis going and we'll see which defensman gets a bigger contract. When this is all said and done, and Edler signs, I think we're looking at the 5.8M/yr range. That's your hometown bargain. Edler doesn't deserve to be making the same as the others, he will continue to get better while the others have already peaked.
I agree he will get more, because of his potential not because of anything he's done to date.

You can watch Edler all you want but you're not considering that he plays against weaker competition, while being sheltered by being given prime O-zone starts with better forwards. Yet despite all that his relative Corsi is worse than Bieksa. No matter what you say about their defensive play, it's wrong. Bieksa is the better defenseman based on this criteria. If you wanted just a smooth skating defenseman with a good shot and nothing else matters then you'll love MA Bergeron. Let's give him $6M too shall we?

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09-18-2012, 07:26 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I agree he will get more, because of his potential not because of anything he's done to date.

You can watch Edler all you want but you're not considering that he plays against weaker competition, while being sheltered by being given prime O-zone starts with better forwards. Yet despite all that his relative Corsi is worse than Bieksa. No matter what you say about their defensive play, it's wrong. Bieksa is the better defenseman.
I'm definitely considering more than you'd even consider giving me credit for.

Bolded part is funny. According to you. And with that this conversation is over.

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09-18-2012, 07:32 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
I'm definitely considering more than you'd even consider giving me credit for.

Bolded part is funny. According to you. And with that this conversation is over.
No it's actually according to the stats, which I didn't make up. It's like saying Robbie Schremp is a better goal scorer than Zach Parise
because Schremp can score pretty dangler goals that are pretty to watch, while Parise scores garbage goals. Nevermind the stats. It's absurd.

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09-18-2012, 07:35 PM
  #158
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Regarding this Edler/Bieksa discussion I must first say that I've always been a big fan of Bieksa, even when I was face palming over his defensive struggles I always knew he would come around.

I like Edler too, and if someone told me I could have only one of them I would be hard-pressed to make a decision. They both bring different things to the table that the other doesn't necessarily possess. Also, Bieksa is almost always a playoffs beast whereas Edler has struggled at times. Other times he's been great but when he is great in the playoffs he seems to have a great game then a not-so-great game and then rinse and repeat.

However, if I had to take only one at this stage of their respective careers it would probably be Edler. He can still improve whereas I think with Bieksa what you see is what you're gonna get. That's not a bad thing by the way. He's my favourite Canuck for many reasons - particularly milk hot dogs.

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09-18-2012, 07:39 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Chairman Maouth View Post
Regarding this Edler/Bieksa discussion I must first say that I've always been a big fan of Bieksa, even when I was face palming over his defensive struggles I always knew he would come around.

I like Edler too, and if someone told me I could have only one of them I would be hard-pressed to make a decision. They both bring different things to the table that the other doesn't necessarily possess. Also, Bieksa is almost always a playoffs beast whereas Edler has struggled at times. Other times he's been great but when he is great in the playoffs he seems to have a great game then a not-so-great game and then rinse and repeat.

However, if I had to take only one at this stage of their respective careers it would probably be Edler. He can still improve whereas I think with Bieksa what you see is what you're gonna get.
I agree with your assessment. However I think the debate is really all about how much more than Bieksa does Edler deserve? How much is potential worth? What you see is what you get with Bieksa, and right now what you see is better than Edler, but will Edler reach his potential and be better than Bieksa?

A $30M/6 year with NTC deal sounds fair to me.

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09-18-2012, 07:59 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Bieksa may be older but he and Edler have roughly the same NHL/pro experience.

I would be against letting Edler walk for free as much as I'm against overpaying him for his potential that may never be realized.
So they have the same amount of NHL experience... cool!

Think about it: Edler has played just as many games as Bieksa who is 5 years older then him, Shouldn't that tell you Edler will be the better of the 2? Edler hasn't physically hit his peak yet & still has room to grow... he hasn't even hit the age where defense men usually hit their strides. THAT is the biggest difference.

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09-18-2012, 09:30 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I agree he will get more, because of his potential not because of anything he's done to date.

You can watch Edler all you want but you're not considering that he plays against weaker competition, while being sheltered by being given prime O-zone starts with better forwards. Yet despite all that his relative Corsi is worse than Bieksa. No matter what you say about their defensive play, it's wrong. Bieksa is the better defenseman based on this criteria. If you wanted just a smooth skating defenseman with a good shot and nothing else matters then you'll love MA Bergeron. Let's give him $6M too shall we?
Corsi/relative Corsi is not the be-all-end-all determiner of which player is better.

Go look at a list of Corsi rankings and tell me if they correlate exactly to which player is better. They don't. They may in some instances, but they are not a definitive stat that can tell which player is better than another.

Hell, Justin Williams has a higher Corsi than Malkin, Thornton, Perry, Getzlaf—who would you rather have?

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09-19-2012, 02:01 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
Corsi/relative Corsi is not the be-all-end-all determiner of which player is better.

Go look at a list of Corsi rankings and tell me if they correlate exactly to which player is better. They don't. They may in some instances, but they are not a definitive stat that can tell which player is better than another.

Hell, Justin Williams has a higher Corsi than Malkin, Thornton, Perry, Getzlaf—who would you rather have?
Are Malkin, Thornton, Perry or Getzlaf paid for their defensive acumen? I know it's not the be all, end all, but when you package a better corsi with a higher qual comp, fewer offensive zone starts, and more even strength offensive projection, the scales tip one way significantly.

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09-19-2012, 10:27 AM
  #163
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Yeah...feels like being here not absolute #1 priority, like so many other signings weve been spoiled to expect. Also come to expect the Swedes to be least greedy....
Could be he heard all the criticism after this year (50 pts quickly forgotten w a soso playoff...)

All speculation....heres hoping the truth is he's so un-greedy he's not worried about not having security and plans to prove his worth in the cup run this year, which will only be shortened by weeks....
Or, he's close friends with Christian Erhoff.

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09-19-2012, 10:52 AM
  #164
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Y2K, what happens when you take Bieksa away from Hamhuis? The same thing that happened when you used to take him away from Mitchell, his defensive game collapsed. It has been determined that when Bieksa is playing with a strong defensive partner he is a good defenseman. When he is not, his mistakes are far more glaring. This is a fact noticed by Canuck fans that cannot be measured in stats, yet we've seen the on ice product. Edler on the other hand didn't have a stable partner since Ehrhoff left, and even then many would argue he wasn't an ideal partner for Edler. Edler has proven to be quite versatile with who he can play with, he did pretty good last season considering his partner was a 36 year old over the hill defender in Salo. I'm not saying Garrison will necessarily change Edlers game and allow him to be a better player, but that seems to be the hope here in Vancouver. Let's wait and see, essentially. Edler is a far better player than Bieksa overall, Bieksa has just found a nice playing situation here that allows him to take advantage of chemistry to play a bit above his level.

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09-19-2012, 11:36 AM
  #165
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Y2K, what happens when you take Bieksa away from Hamhuis?
He still has a better corsi than Edler... while playing tougher minutes... with worse teammates.


Last edited by Scurr: 09-19-2012 at 11:45 AM.
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09-19-2012, 11:57 AM
  #166
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He still has a better corsi than Edler... while playing tougher minutes... with worse teammates.
I would hope a defenseman five years older would have 'better' such numbers than a then 22-23 year old defenseman.

Are you referring to his corsi numbers when you wasn't playing with Hamhuis for any of the past two seasons or before Hamhuis was a Canuck (I doubt the later). Hamhuis acquisition helped Bieksa's game (or at least made him focus more on the defensive side of the game - whether he was later moved off the pairing [or an injury forced that to happen]).

From 2010:

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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
No one defending Bieksa has addressed this: +52 when Bieksa's off the ice, -25 when he's on over the last four seasons. Three of those seasons he was on the second or third pairing. I'd be willing to bet on a per game basis that's the worst in the NHL (don't have time to run the numbers right now). He gets some of the worst EV results in the league and doesn't stand out on either the PK or the PP.

Don't even try to compare him to Ohlund. Ohlund was elite on the PK and nowhere near the trainwreck Bieksa is at EV.


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09-19-2012, 12:15 PM
  #167
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Edler isn't 22 anymore. I'm not sure paying a premium for "potential" for a 26 year old makes a whole lot of sense.

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09-19-2012, 12:22 PM
  #168
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I would hope a defenseman five years older would have 'better' such numbers than a then 22-23 year old defenseman.

Are you referring to his corsi numbers when you wasn't playing with Hamhuis for any of the past two seasons or before Hamhuis was a Canuck (I doubt the later). Hamhuis acquisition helped Bieksa's game (or at least made him focus more on the defensive side of the game - whether he was later moved off the pairing [or an injury forced that to happen]).

From 2010:
Edler has one season (07/08 when Bieksa played 34 games) with a better Corsi rating than Bieksa.

In 10/11 Edler's was marginally better but he started almost 60% of his shifts in the offensive zone compared to 46% for Bieksa.

IMO Bieksa getting healthy has more to do with his improved play than Hamhuis. Regardless, he's always been amongst our best corsi players while Edler has never been.

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09-19-2012, 12:27 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Edler has one season (07/08 when Bieksa played 34 games) with a better Corsi rating than Bieksa.
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
IMO Bieksa getting healthy has more to do with his improved play than Hamhuis.
Again, he stunk really bad (far more than he ever was after his freak injuries) for the period of time after his breakout season and his first freak injury. Forget the "corsi numbers" - just look at any game day thread during that time.

Having Willie Mitchell as a defensive partner doesn't hurt either (re: Corsi numbers).

Hamhuis helped elevate Bieksa's game to the point where he doesn't need him as a partner (or a guy like Mitchell) as much as before (as I said a number of times, I thought Bieksa *outplayed* Hamhuis this past season).

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09-19-2012, 12:30 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Edler has certain offensive attributes such as his shot that make him a better fit for the role he works in on the PP, but if we are talking about who's better offensively give me the guy who's dominated even strength points while playing against tougher competition.

Why is it ridiculous to refer to advanced stats? Your opinion can be swayed by your own personal feelings, whereas the stats cut through all that and report actual production. That's not refutable. The stats are what they are and they tell a story that Bieksa is the better defenseman, so it would be absurd to hand out a contract to Edler in the $6M neighborhood. It would make Edler overpaid.
I don't know much about advanced stats or Corsi numbers, but I have a question for you. Is tougher competition regarded as more offensive players or more defensive players? If playing against better offensive players gives you a better corsi, then it isn't that impressive that he puts up more points against them. Stats can only tell you so much, and though Bieksa has improved, Hamhuis is clearly the reason we can shutdown top guys.

There is no way Bieksa is better than Edler offensively. Very seldomly, if ever, have I seen Bieksa make a pass leading directly to a goal. I don't mean simply a primary assist but instead a pass that makes it really easy for the receiving player to score. Think of all the times Edler has done this with slap passes or cross ice passes for empty net goals.

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09-19-2012, 12:32 PM
  #171
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Again, he stunk really bad (far more than he ever was after his freak injuries) for the period of time after his breakout season and his first freak injury. Forget the "corsi numbers" - just look at any game day thread during that time.
Bieksa isn't the first guy to struggle in his second season. Those 34 games are an outlier in his career but for some reason have defined it for Canuck fans.

Bieksa comparison aside, Edler doesn't compare well to defensemen across the league that play similar minutes. Enstrom was brought up as a comparison, his 11 corsi dwarfed Edler's career high of <7.

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09-19-2012, 12:35 PM
  #172
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Bieksa isn't the first guy to struggle in his second season. Those 34 games are an outlier in his career but for some reason have defined it for Canuck fans.
When you have Willie Mitchell as a defensive partner, expectations are naturally higher.

And I stated that he doesn't need a partner like Hamhuis or Mitchell anymore - this past season (and the post-season before that) has defined his career [at this point] to me. My post was in response to you using Bieksa's freak injuries as a crutch for his poor play during those several seasons - when he played actually worse when completely healthy during that season in question.


Last edited by Barney Gumble: 09-19-2012 at 12:41 PM.
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09-19-2012, 12:41 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
When you have Willie Mitchell as a defensive partner, expectations are naturally higher.
That was a long time ago, I'm not sure they even played much together that season http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...34+45+46+63+67

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09-19-2012, 12:45 PM
  #174
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That was a long time ago, I'm not sure they even played much together that season http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...34+45+46+63+67
Mitchell's last season as a Canuck (before it was shortened by Malkin's cheapshot) was the 2009-10 season. Not that long ago.

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09-19-2012, 01:23 PM
  #175
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That was a long time ago, I'm not sure they even played much together that season http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...34+45+46+63+67
2007-2008: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...11+13+29+31+33
2008-2009: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...11+13+29+31+33
2009-2010: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...11+13+29+31+33

The only way Bieksa got out on the ice at ES was with Mitchell.

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