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Edmonton rejects Oiler [Arena] bid for more taxpayer dollars

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Old
09-12-2012, 11:17 PM
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cbcwpg
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Edmonton rejects Oiler [Arena] bid for more taxpayer dollars

Edmonton rejects Oiler bid for more taxpayer dollars

http://www.thespec.com/sports/hockey...downtown-arena

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09-12-2012, 11:52 PM
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Previous discussion thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1229703

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09-18-2012, 10:13 AM
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http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL...slam!%20hockey

Rare Katz interview, debunking (city hall) leak that incorrectly said he was demanding $6m/year from city.

Quote:
“People need to understand the full picture. I’m not sure they do.

“The fact is, I’m trying to find a way for the economics to work for both sides. To have those efforts to save the deal turned against me by a leak like that is really unfortunate.”

Katz says the perceptions are way off base when it comes from the costs projected to go over the original $450 million.

Indeed, he says he’s willing to put more money into the deal to help make it happen.

“We said we’re prepared to do our part. We’re trying to be flexible and work through all the issues fairly and reasonably.”

Asked specifically if that meant more money from the Katz Group, the Oiler owner said yes.

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09-18-2012, 08:48 PM
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One Edmonton Councillor hints at just how much of a corporate handout the arena deal really is for the Edmonton Taxpayer:

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sport...240/story.html


Last edited by danishh: 09-18-2012 at 09:05 PM. Reason: fixed link
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09-18-2012, 08:49 PM
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Ok, so how much of a subsidy is he asking for, then?

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09-18-2012, 09:02 PM
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i often wonder, given the political atmosphere in alberta, what the locals are think about this whole deal. On the one hand, edmonton is one of the true hockey-mad markets in the league. On the other, it's full of fiscal conservatives who in theory should be aligned against government spending on this project.

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09-18-2012, 09:34 PM
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i often wonder, given the political atmosphere in alberta, what the locals are think about this whole deal. On the one hand, edmonton is one of the true hockey-mad markets in the league. On the other, it's full of fiscal conservatives who in theory should be aligned against government spending on this project.
I lived in Edmonton on and off for the past couple years, so I may be able to give some insight while not having it be a major part of my life. The people I talked to, the hockey fans and ones who care enough to pay attention at least, saythey don't really understand why Katz needs all this money from the city, considering his financial status. Furthermore, someone even said to me that if he is so reluctant to pay for any of the arena costs, why not sell part of the team off to one of the other rich folks in town and have them committ to funding part of the costs.

Myself, I'd agree with the above sentiment. While the city does need a new arena badly, and will help clean up one of the worst parts of the city, Katz is ultimatley the one who will benefit the most from this. There is no reason he can't afford to up his percent in the costs, especially since its highly doubtful he could move the Oilers and continue to have 15,000 people paying $70+ per ticket for every game.

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09-18-2012, 09:36 PM
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On the other, it's full of fiscal conservatives who in theory should be aligned against government spending on this project.
Key words ... "in theory"

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09-18-2012, 09:47 PM
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Katz has always come across as being shaddy to me. He always puts a spin on things. When he was talking to city hall, he was talking about how his company was "subsidizing" the Oilers when he was really talking about a business loss.

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09-18-2012, 09:48 PM
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Ok, so how much of a subsidy is he asking for, then?
7 million. Per year.

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09-18-2012, 09:49 PM
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Edmonton has to pay up. IMO they won't get another team. Seattle will allow Katz to keep the team.

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09-18-2012, 10:01 PM
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It would be fairly weird to see booming Alberta lose a hockey team to a relatively apathetic US market if this all goes bust and the Oilers leave town.

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09-18-2012, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kaiser matias View Post
I lived in Edmonton on and off for the past couple years, so I may be able to give some insight while not having it be a major part of my life. The people I talked to, the hockey fans and ones who care enough to pay attention at least, saythey don't really understand why Katz needs all this money from the city, considering his financial status. Furthermore, someone even said to me that if he is so reluctant to pay for any of the arena costs, why not sell part of the team off to one of the other rich folks in town and have them committ to funding part of the costs.

Myself, I'd agree with the above sentiment. While the city does need a new arena badly, and will help clean up one of the worst parts of the city, Katz is ultimatley the one who will benefit the most from this. There is no reason he can't afford to up his percent in the costs, especially since its highly doubtful he could move the Oilers and continue to have 15,000 people paying $70+ per ticket for every game.
This perception is quite wrong, and could ultimately lead to the Oilers leaving Edmonton. It is this type of thinking that is rotting Edmonton to the core.

Many people say "oh, it's not possible we pay high ticket prices, we're great fans, etc" unfortunately after living there for 10 years the reality of the economic situation goes far beyond the arena and stems right back to the decisions in the late 80's that caused that city to stagnate for 20 years while a more progressive city like Calgary reaped the rewards.

The feasibility of the Oilers moving forward almost 100% depends on the arena being built. The Northlands Coliseum was built to sustain an 80's NHL market that is nowhere near as large as it is now. With 16K seats and almost zero residual amenities such as a restaurant, bars, shops, etc it is a relic. It is absolutely correct for Katz to say that the Oilers need a new arena to remain viable.

Most people think, "Blah blah revenues, blah blah fan support" but don't have a clue about the economic status of the Oilers who by all accounts are losing money on a yearly basis. Maybe if the cap remained at $39-45M we could state yeah, it's feasible, but unfortunately it looks like the $60M cap and 50-odd some floor are here to stay. The NHL is becoming bigger and generating more revenue than ever. This has the effect of leaving "smaller market" teams like the Oilers behind because they are only "small market" because they are only able to stuff 16K fans a night in and get zero cake revenue from what a new arena like Katz is proposing would give.

The entire premise of the new arena is based on ensuring the viability of the Oilers first and foremost going into the future and that is one that Rexall is not able to sustain. The Oilers and the league have outgrown it. In this small market town where ticket sales won't necessarily bring in the bread and butter, there needs to be a huge development project such as the one Katz is proposing to see the Oilers through the next 20 years.

Otherwise, the Oilers will continue to lose money more and more each year while having record high ticket prices. How many road blocks will Katz have to face until he says, "screw this!" and sells the team? I think Edmonton has run out of Batman-esque billionaires willing to do this much for the Oilers and if Katz bails, the new owners will most definitely not be willing to invest in Edmonton and most likely move the team to a new market with a new arena begging for an NHL team. It's definitely not outside the realm of possibility that the Oilers move, and in fact is a very real threat. Anyone can remember how close we were to losing them the last time and it came down to the 11th hour literally.

Edmonton is a city who are unwilling to see the big picture and instead focus on these stupid debates about a million here or a million there. The city will have to decide once and for all (And probably very soon) if the Oilers are something they are willing to invest in as a whole because they ain't stayin in Rexall past 2014 I can tell ya that much.

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09-18-2012, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Edmonton is a city who are unwilling to see the big picture and instead focus on these stupid debates about a million here or a million there.
Umm, it's a tad bit more than "a million here or a million there"

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09-18-2012, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Otherwise, the Oilers will continue to lose money more and more each year while having record high ticket prices. How many road blocks will Katz have to face until he says, "screw this!" and sells the team? I think Edmonton has run out of Batman-esque billionaires willing to do this much for the Oilers and if Katz bails, the new owners will most definitely not be willing to invest in Edmonton and most likely move the team to a new market with a new arena begging for an NHL team. It's definitely not outside the realm of possibility that the Oilers move, and in fact is a very real threat. Anyone can remember how close we were to losing them the last time and it came down to the 11th hour literally.
Yeah, if by roadblocks you mean "questioning a bully who wants to force his way through the issue".

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09-18-2012, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This perception is quite wrong, and could ultimately lead to the Oilers leaving Edmonton. It is this type of thinking that is rotting Edmonton to the core.

Many people say "oh, it's not possible we pay high ticket prices, we're great fans, etc" unfortunately after living there for 10 years the reality of the economic situation goes far beyond the arena and stems right back to the decisions in the late 80's that caused that city to stagnate for 20 years while a more progressive city like Calgary reaped the rewards.

The feasibility of the Oilers moving forward almost 100% depends on the arena being built. The Northlands Coliseum was built to sustain an 80's NHL market that is nowhere near as large as it is now. With 16K seats and almost zero residual amenities such as a restaurant, bars, shops, etc it is a relic. It is absolutely correct for Katz to say that the Oilers need a new arena to remain viable.

Most people think, "Blah blah revenues, blah blah fan support" but don't have a clue about the economic status of the Oilers who by all accounts are losing money on a yearly basis. Maybe if the cap remained at $39-45M we could state yeah, it's feasible, but unfortunately it looks like the $60M cap and 50-odd some floor are here to stay. The NHL is becoming bigger and generating more revenue than ever. This has the effect of leaving "smaller market" teams like the Oilers behind because they are only "small market" because they are only able to stuff 16K fans a night in and get zero cake revenue from what a new arena like Katz is proposing would give.

The entire premise of the new arena is based on ensuring the viability of the Oilers first and foremost going into the future and that is one that Rexall is not able to sustain. The Oilers and the league have outgrown it. In this small market town where ticket sales won't necessarily bring in the bread and butter, there needs to be a huge development project such as the one Katz is proposing to see the Oilers through the next 20 years.

Otherwise, the Oilers will continue to lose money more and more each year while having record high ticket prices. How many road blocks will Katz have to face until he says, "screw this!" and sells the team? I think Edmonton has run out of Batman-esque billionaires willing to do this much for the Oilers and if Katz bails, the new owners will most definitely not be willing to invest in Edmonton and most likely move the team to a new market with a new arena begging for an NHL team. It's definitely not outside the realm of possibility that the Oilers move, and in fact is a very real threat. Anyone can remember how close we were to losing them the last time and it came down to the 11th hour literally.

Edmonton is a city who are unwilling to see the big picture and instead focus on these stupid debates about a million here or a million there. The city will have to decide once and for all (And probably very soon) if the Oilers are something they are willing to invest in as a whole because they ain't stayin in Rexall past 2014 I can tell ya that much.
you failed to explain why edmonton has to pay for the arena. Yes, the oilers need a new arena. Everyone agrees with that. Why should the people pay for it though? Every other NHL arena in the country is privately built (except calgary - olympics)

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09-18-2012, 11:05 PM
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you failed to explain why edmonton has to pay for the arena. Yes, the oilers need a new arena. Everyone agrees with that. Why should the people pay for it though? Every other NHL arena in the country is privately built (except calgary - olympics)
Because Edmonton doesn't have enough private interest to generate the money needed and has to rely on public funding. They don't have enough private funding because all the big corporations moved to Calgary over the last 20 years and it has been widely documented that the government and ultimately the citizens were the ones who ran those homegrown millionaires out of town! This is a city that is "still" unwilling to remove the giant unsightly airport in the middle of primo real estate that not only services less than something ridiculous like 5000 people a year, but also causes incredible limitations on building heights and zoning. One just has to google earth Edmonton and you can't miss it.

This is a city that just got their first corporate skyscraper in something like 20 years. Edmonton has shunted soooo many corporations and caused so much bad blood between them. And then this billionaire homegrown Oiler fan buys the team, and says "I got a great plan that will kick-start a new revitalization plan downtown, help bring in corporate investment, and ensure the viability of the Oilers for decades to come."

Well, unfortunately because of the very same people ran those other millionaires 3 hours south, there just isn't enough millionaires left to invest private funding into an arena/development project that this city desperately needs. And these are the very same people doing the exact same thing they did 10, 20, 30 years ago that caused this problem in the first place.

And you know what? It will happen again. Katz will be run out of town and his plan to jump start Edmonton into the 21st century will be shut down time and time again. You can see it with how people are overreacting to the new request due to costs going up. You know why they're going to go up? Because when this damn plan was introduced construction costs were at an all time low! This was also at the height of the recession which would have also brought in countless jobs for locals. But now because of the delay tactics and the vocal majority who split their time between bashing Katz and his arena and defending the useless city center airport, the construction costs have risen and will continue to do so. If IF this damn arena gets built the corners that will have to be cut to ensure it gets built will leave it looking like a square concrete block just like every other building in Edmonton.

Besides the small and confined area of progressive youth around Whyte Ave and the UofA, the city is incredibly conservative when it comes to any spending whatsoever. Any mention of beautification, revitalization, and even the LRT (Which took *28* years to finally be expanded) has the tax payer up in arms.

So that's why there's no corporate funding. Because there are no corporations left. They're all in Calgary.


Last edited by smackdaddy: 09-18-2012 at 11:10 PM.
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09-18-2012, 11:09 PM
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you just described ottawa. They got it done.

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09-18-2012, 11:15 PM
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you just described ottawa. They got it done.
I really hope Edmonton gets it done. I do. Because the last thing I want is to see the Oilers moved.

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09-18-2012, 11:21 PM
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I really hope Edmonton gets it done. I do. Because the last thing I want is to see the Oilers moved.
*they got it done with private money, from terrace investments.

(probably should ignore the fact that the company holding their bonds went bankrupt due to the whole enron implosion)

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09-18-2012, 11:32 PM
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Because Edmonton doesn't have enough private interest to generate the money needed and has to rely on public funding. They don't have enough private funding because all the big corporations moved to Calgary over the last 20 years and it has been widely documented that the government and ultimately the citizens were the ones who ran those homegrown millionaires out of town! This is a city that is "still" unwilling to remove the giant unsightly airport in the middle of primo real estate that not only services less than something ridiculous like 5000 people a year, but also causes incredible limitations on building heights and zoning. One just has to google earth Edmonton and you can't miss it.

This is a city that just got their first corporate skyscraper in something like 20 years. Edmonton has shunted soooo many corporations and caused so much bad blood between them. And then this billionaire homegrown Oiler fan buys the team, and says "I got a great plan that will kick-start a new revitalization plan downtown, help bring in corporate investment, and ensure the viability of the Oilers for decades to come."

Well, unfortunately because of the very same people ran those other millionaires 3 hours south, there just isn't enough millionaires left to invest private funding into an arena/development project that this city desperately needs. And these are the very same people doing the exact same thing they did 10, 20, 30 years ago that caused this problem in the first place.

And you know what? It will happen again. Katz will be run out of town and his plan to jump start Edmonton into the 21st century will be shut down time and time again. You can see it with how people are overreacting to the new request due to costs going up. You know why they're going to go up? Because when this damn plan was introduced construction costs were at an all time low! This was also at the height of the recession which would have also brought in countless jobs for locals. But now because of the delay tactics and the vocal majority who split their time between bashing Katz and his arena and defending the useless city center airport, the construction costs have risen and will continue to do so. If IF this damn arena gets built the corners that will have to be cut to ensure it gets built will leave it looking like a square concrete block just like every other building in Edmonton.

Besides the small and confined area of progressive youth around Whyte Ave and the UofA, the city is incredibly conservative when it comes to any spending whatsoever. Any mention of beautification, revitalization, and even the LRT (Which took *28* years to finally be expanded) has the tax payer up in arms.

So that's why there's no corporate funding. Because there are no corporations left. They're all in Calgary.
Yes, after all, Edmonton doesn't have Winnipeg money...

The contention that the Oilers franchise could leave Edmonton is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. The team is Top 10 in revenue, there's a season ticket waiting list of thousands, every game's a sell-out. Katz is just extorting the city for as much as he can get. Maybe he should go to the BoG and get pre-approval on relocation if he really wants to make his point. I'm sure approval would be a mere formality - I mean, it's not like the Oilers have the rich hockey tradition and rabid fanbase of, say, Glendale, AZ...

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09-18-2012, 11:40 PM
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7 million. Per year.
I thought it was effectively quite a bit more than that, once you add in shutting down competing casinos, help with construction costs, etc.

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09-18-2012, 11:43 PM
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With 16K seats and almost zero residual amenities such as a restaurant, bars, shops, etc it is a relic.
I findi it hard to believe "a restaurant, bars, shops" can't be added to the current arena for a lot less than $450M.

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09-18-2012, 11:45 PM
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I thought it was effectively quite a bit more than that, once you add in shutting down competing casinos, help with construction costs, etc.
Most likely, I was quoting the base number to be honest. Didn't want to exaggerate.

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09-18-2012, 11:45 PM
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*they got it done with private money, from terrace investments.

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