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Edmonton rejects Oiler [Arena] bid for more taxpayer dollars

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Old
09-18-2012, 10:47 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
Yes, after all, Edmonton doesn't have Winnipeg money...

The contention that the Oilers franchise could leave Edmonton is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. The team is Top 10 in revenue, there's a season ticket waiting list of thousands, every game's a sell-out. Katz is just extorting the city for as much as he can get. Maybe he should go to the BoG and get pre-approval on relocation if he really wants to make his point. I'm sure approval would be a mere formality - I mean, it's not like the Oilers have the rich hockey tradition and rabid fanbase of, say, Glendale, AZ...
Sorry, but Winnipeg is a small market team that is only once again viable because of the Canadian dollar and the fact that the team got a public investment of their own by requesting 5 years of season tickets paid in advance.

I am unsure of the workings around their arena deal and if the team gets to keep parking, concession, or anything else, but I'm sure the economic benefit from having the arena downtown can be felt already. Winnipeg might be pretending rich right now, but their 15k arena isn't going to allow them to ice a $75-80M team. The economics just don't work. Every citizen in Winnipeg (All 738,000 of them) will have to spend $109.59 a year to maintain that roster.

And if my above post wasn't enough? On top of the anemic city council, a handcuffed progressive mayor, and a bunch of out of touch conservative baby boomers who cry foul when flowers are planted (But who also buy F-350's to haul their new speedboats), we have Northlands siphoning all the profit from the Oilers and who have also demanded that they deserve "in" on this new arena despite not contributing to it. I think they realize the Oiler gravy train and loss of their tenant will hurt them.

Bettman has stated that he isn't going to get caught up in Edmonton relocating if it comes to it again.

This situation is one of the reasons there is a lockout right now. Small market teams that should be doing well, but can't because of "player salaries". Unfortunately for the Oilers it has nothing to do with salaries and everything to do with their arena.

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09-18-2012, 10:48 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I findi it hard to believe "a restaurant, bars, shops" can't be added to the current arena for a lot less than $450M.
Never been to Rexall, have you?

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09-18-2012, 10:53 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Never been to Rexall, have you?
... pretty sure the op has been, and ya, its not pretty, needs replacing, moving, no question, but c'mon here, whats Kitty Kat Katz up to now? This guy is flat out a Rounder, a Bounder and a Confidence Man who knows exactly what buttons to push & when. Born to wealth sure, but smart. Krazy like a Fox.

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09-18-2012, 10:56 PM
  #29
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Never been to Rexall, have you?
Both before and after they found a way to add 67 luxury boxes.

It can be done - if there's the will to do it.


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09-18-2012, 11:00 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Sorry, but Winnipeg is a small market team that is only once again viable because of the Canadian dollar and the fact that the team got a public investment of their own by requesting 5 years of season tickets paid in advance.
The viability of Winnipeg has more to do with more than just what you mention. The growing economy of the city, the stronger corporate support, the increase in financial wealth for the average citizen, and I could go on and on. Thanks for the backhanded compliment, slam, whatever you want to call it, but we are an extremely strong "small market", much like Edmonton is. So as much as you think we may not survive, we have an NHL calibre arena that has put us back on the map, a wealthy and intelligent ownership group who is building the foundation for successful businessplan for the franchise to permanently keep us back in the league. Whereas Edmonton has a rich extortionist holding the city and it's taxpayers hostage for as much money as he can, which may indeed cause the Oil to be relocated.


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09-18-2012, 11:25 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
The viability of Winnipeg has more to do with more than just what you mention. The growing economy of the city, the stronger corporate support, the increase in financial wealth for the average citizen, and I could go on and on. Thanks for the backhanded compliment, slam, whatever you want to call it, but we are an extremely strong "small market", much like Edmonton is. So as much as you think we may not survive, we have an NHL calibre arena that has put us back on the map, a wealthy and intelligent ownership group who is building the foundation for successful businessplan for the franchise to permanently keep us back in the league. Whereas Edmonton has a rich extortionist holding the city and it's taxpayers hostage for as much money as he can, which may indeed cause the Oil to be relocated.
I'm not gonna defend Katz, I'm just a realist who understands the situation. Katz isn't the one who is gonna hold anyone hostage. He's simply going to say, "Alright I tried" and sell the team to someone who will have no second thoughts in moving them. It's this public perception that turned from Edmonton's own Bruce Wayne into public enemy #1 the minute he realized that a half-hearted attempt is what sunk the countless other downtown arena districts in other cities and that an entertainment complex that embraces not only the Oilers but revitalization of the downtown core and a building Edmontonians could be proud of is what's really needed. The public perception of him then and now is a stark contrast and one that should be questioned. He has done nothing but good for that city.

Winnipeg has what Edmonton wants. There was no backhanded slam there. They have the downtown arena, probably a pretty lucrative lease, access to parking, concession and other amenities and on and on. The team is new, corporate support is high and the fans are excited as they should be.

But don't delude yourself for a second that our "strong market" is a bullet proof vest. You can only pack so many people per night into those arenas.

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09-18-2012, 11:42 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'm not gonna defend Katz, I'm just a realist who understands the situation. Katz isn't the one who is gonna hold anyone hostage. He's simply going to say, "Alright I tried" and sell the team to someone who will have no second thoughts in moving them. It's this public perception that turned from Edmonton's own Bruce Wayne into public enemy #1 the minute he realized that a half-hearted attempt is what sunk the countless other downtown arena districts in other cities and that an entertainment complex that embraces not only the Oilers but revitalization of the downtown core and a building Edmontonians could be proud of is what's really needed. The public perception of him then and now is a stark contrast and one that should be questioned. He has done nothing but good for that city.

Winnipeg has what Edmonton wants. There was no backhanded slam there. They have the downtown arena, probably a pretty lucrative lease, access to parking, concession and other amenities and on and on. The team is new, corporate support is high and the fans are excited as they should be.

But don't delude yourself for a second that our "strong market" is a bullet proof vest. You can only pack so many people per night into those arenas.
The fact that he is not wanting to pay any taxes on the property (and that is only the tip of the iceburg in freebies he wants from the city) tells me he's more interested in his own personal finances and my tax dollars than the City of Edmonton and Oiler fans.

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09-19-2012, 12:15 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'm not gonna defend Katz, I'm just a realist who understands the situation. Katz isn't the one who is gonna hold anyone hostage. He's simply going to say, "Alright I tried" and sell the team to someone who will have no second thoughts in moving them. It's this public perception that turned from Edmonton's own Bruce Wayne into public enemy #1 the minute he realized that a half-hearted attempt is what sunk the countless other downtown arena districts in other cities and that an entertainment complex that embraces not only the Oilers but revitalization of the downtown core and a building Edmontonians could be proud of is what's really needed. The public perception of him then and now is a stark contrast and one that should be questioned. He has done nothing but good for that city.

Winnipeg has what Edmonton wants. There was no backhanded slam there. They have the downtown arena, probably a pretty lucrative lease, access to parking, concession and other amenities and on and on. The team is new, corporate support is high and the fans are excited as they should be.

But don't delude yourself for a second that our "strong market" is a bullet proof vest. You can only pack so many people per night into those arenas.
winnipeg did it with private money.

why does katz need public money? You have yet to convincingly answer this.

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09-19-2012, 12:47 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Sorry, but Winnipeg is a small market team that is only once again viable because of the Canadian dollar and the fact that the team got a public investment of their own by requesting 5 years of season tickets paid in advance.

I am unsure of the workings around their arena deal and if the team gets to keep parking, concession, or anything else, but I'm sure the economic benefit from having the arena downtown can be felt already. Winnipeg might be pretending rich right now, but their 15k arena isn't going to allow them to ice a $75-80M team. The economics just don't work. Every citizen in Winnipeg (All 738,000 of them) will have to spend $109.59 a year to maintain that roster.

And if my above post wasn't enough? On top of the anemic city council, a handcuffed progressive mayor, and a bunch of out of touch conservative baby boomers who cry foul when flowers are planted (But who also buy F-350's to haul their new speedboats), we have Northlands siphoning all the profit from the Oilers and who have also demanded that they deserve "in" on this new arena despite not contributing to it. I think they realize the Oiler gravy train and loss of their tenant will hurt them.

Bettman has stated that he isn't going to get caught up in Edmonton relocating if it comes to it again.

This situation is one of the reasons there is a lockout right now. Small market teams that should be doing well, but can't because of "player salaries". Unfortunately for the Oilers it has nothing to do with salaries and everything to do with their arena.
You're not making sense at all. The arena in Winnipeg was privately built before they got an NHL team. That's one of the reasons it's so small, because it was built when they had an AHL team. It was built with private funds.

If Winnipeg can get it down privately with an AHL team, I'm pretty sure Edmonton can with an NHL team. Katz can get it done by himself, he just wants to milk taxpayers.

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09-19-2012, 12:48 AM
  #35
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We are going to have a building that will need a NHL tenant. Just saying if someone is selling!

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09-19-2012, 01:19 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by superdeluxe View Post
We are going to have a building that will need a NHL tenant. Just saying if someone is selling!
i'll bite.

let's assume the term of arena payments (financing) is 30 years.
in that case, a 450M project as Katz claims it is will cost him $15M a year.
the new arena increases the oilers revenues from ~100M to X
edmonton's costs increase from ~80M to ~95M.


X is greater than 95M. We know that. Edmonton will still make money, depending on how much a new arena helps them, either more or less.


does moving the team to quebec or seattle, with a publicly funded arena, decrease X by more than 15M a season? That is the question for Katz, isnt it? (actually, considering Katz is a local boy that loves the oilers and would never do anything to hurt them, this whole argument is moot, isnt it?)

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09-19-2012, 01:25 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
The fact that he is not wanting to pay any taxes on the property (and that is only the tip of the iceburg in freebies he wants from the city) tells me he's more interested in his own personal finances and my tax dollars than the City of Edmonton and Oiler fans.
"In the new building, the Katz Group will pay not $1 per year in rent, but roughly $5 million per year towards the mortgage. It won’t keep the ticket tax, but will instead see roughly $7 million per year go to the mortgage. It will pay property taxes. It will not pay $1.2 million for operations, but will pay more than $10 million per year in operating and maintenance costs."

The ticket tax will be imposed to literally pay the city back. There is also the Community Revitalization Levy that takes future property taxes for the area that is being proposed for redevelopment and puts it into construction costs. The main point Katz is making is that the $45M over 20 years that the city has committed can be expanded to include additional funds to ensure that the facility they are trying to build actually gets built without being forced to remove tax-generating properties that the whole CRL is based upon. Not only that but he is also willing to take on 50% of the increased cost as well.

In order for this project to succeed it has to be seen as a joint project between Katz and the city. Both sides of the table get to make money.

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winnipeg did it with private money.

why does katz need public money? You have yet to convincingly answer this.
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You're not making sense at all. The arena in Winnipeg was privately built before they got an NHL team. That's one of the reasons it's so small, because it was built when they had an AHL team. It was built with private funds.

If Winnipeg can get it down privately with an AHL team, I'm pretty sure Edmonton can with an NHL team. Katz can get it done by himself, he just wants to milk taxpayers.
Surely I don't have to literally explain to you the differences between Winnipeg's arena and the proposed arena district that Katz has designed, do I?

Winnipeg's arena was built for a paltry $135M. Edmonton's arena district is a proposed $450M+ that encases two rinks, world class design, restaurants, an indoor 'winter garden' (likely scrapped), several office towers, underground parking, condos and LRT access not to mention private investment in the form of bars/restaurants that are part of the project as developable land.

That is a project the city has to be involved in. There was a lot of research that went into developing a feasible project based on historical effects on arenas located in downtown areas. The conclusion was that an arena downtown itself does not revitalize the area and there are many failed arena-only cities worldwide where this is prevalent. They've concluded that a successful revitalization encompasses many aspects and thus the arena district was born. It should be seen as a municipal-wide initiative with the arena as a focal point of the whole revitalization project.

Katz' expectation of public funds is not unreasonable because this project is thinking Edmonton first and arena second. It's incredibly ambitious and one that will change the perception of Edmonton for decades to come if it's built.

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09-19-2012, 01:59 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Surely I don't have to literally explain to you the differences between Winnipeg's arena and the proposed arena district that Katz has designed, do I?

Winnipeg's arena was built for a paltry $135M. Edmonton's arena district is a proposed $450M+ that encases two rinks, world class design, restaurants, an indoor 'winter garden' (likely scrapped), several office towers, underground parking, condos and LRT access not to mention private investment in the form of bars/restaurants that are part of the project as developable land.

That is a project the city has to be involved in. There was a lot of research that went into developing a feasible project based on historical effects on arenas located in downtown areas. The conclusion was that an arena downtown itself does not revitalize the area and there are many failed arena-only cities worldwide where this is prevalent. They've concluded that a successful revitalization encompasses many aspects and thus the arena district was born. It should be seen as a municipal-wide initiative with the arena as a focal point of the whole revitalization project.

Katz' expectation of public funds is not unreasonable because this project is thinking Edmonton first and arena second. It's incredibly ambitious and one that will change the perception of Edmonton for decades to come if it's built.
Surely I don't have to literally explain that you're side stepping the issue of your posts being riddled with inaccuracies.

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Winnipeg has what Edmonton wants. There was no backhanded slam there. They have the downtown arena, probably a pretty lucrative lease, access to parking, concession and other amenities and on and on...
The same company owns the rink and team in Winnipeg so there would be no lucrative lease, concession, or parking agreements.

Also, $135M was not a paltry sum at the time the arena was built. It's called inflation and the cost of construction materials (mostly concrete). GM Place cost about $160 million in the mid-90s and it's a first-class arena. This so called "district" is either going to require guaranteed renters (which Katz is already asking for from the city) or it's going to directly benefit Katz (looking for a casino license). Any Arizona residents here? How's the situation in Glendale working out?

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09-19-2012, 02:06 AM
  #39
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No billionaire can resist a risk he can socialize.

Last team moved in the NHL went from Atlanta (eg. big corporate and media presence, 5 million metro population) to frikken Winnipeg. Edmonton ain't going anywhere.


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09-19-2012, 06:38 AM
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Katz should be arrested and forced to show everything about this deal to the public.

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09-19-2012, 07:00 AM
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Katz should be arrested and forced to show everything about this deal to the public.
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sport...240/story.html

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Its time for Mr. Katz to open his books and make a case that somehow hes bleeding red ink, said Diotte.

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09-19-2012, 07:06 AM
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*they got it done with private money, from terrace investments.

(probably should ignore the fact that the company holding their bonds went bankrupt due to the whole enron implosion)
True however the people who got the franchise and built the stadium lost their shirts and even after Bryden took over his pockets weren't deep enough and the team went into bankruptcy.

They were saved by Mr. Melnyk (thank you Uncle Eugene).

The stadium was part of a real estate venture but the payoff didnt come until many years later.

The dreamers who got it built weren't nearly as rich as Mr Katz however.

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09-19-2012, 08:13 AM
  #43
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7 million. Per year.
For comparison of small cities, Nashville gets $8.6 per year for the arena from the city.

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09-19-2012, 12:25 PM
  #44
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"In the new building, the Katz Group will pay not $1 per year in rent, but roughly $5 million per year towards the mortgage. It wont keep the ticket tax, but will instead see roughly $7 million per year go to the mortgage. It will pay property taxes. It will not pay $1.2 million for operations, but will pay more than $10 million per year in operating and maintenance costs."
I don't believe that City council have warmed up to a ticket tax idea, which hasn't been discussed in the media in awhile. And besides, this doesn't make up for him not wanting to pay his fair share of property taxesm which will fall on the shoulders of tax-paying Edmontonians for the rest of their lives.

Sorry, billionairs need to pay their taxes just like everyone else.

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09-19-2012, 12:32 PM
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It would be fairly weird to see booming Alberta lose a hockey team to a relatively apathetic US market if this all goes bust and the Oilers leave town.
Edmonton will always have a hockey team.

Even if the Oilers move, which would be a tragedy, there would be probably 25 other owners dying to move their teams to Edmonton.

Edmonton is probably per-capita the richest city in North America and one of the craziest about hockey. It's just way too profitable for it to not exist.

As long as people want oil, Edmonton will have a team.

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09-19-2012, 12:47 PM
  #46
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edmonton's costs increase from ~80M to ~95M.
Which part of the local economy is going to lose the $15M that Katz will gain?

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09-19-2012, 01:30 PM
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Taxpayers should cough up for a new arena, of course - as long as it's publicly owned and rented out to the Oilers for a competitive rate. But this is apparently blasphemy.

By the way, for anyone seriously arguing that Edmonton should give in to Katz, try to find a study that shows that publicly funded arenas are not only revenue positive but also have a better return than infrastructure spending. I'd love to see it.

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09-19-2012, 01:50 PM
  #48
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Edmonton will always have a hockey team.

Even if the Oilers move, which would be a tragedy, there would be probably 25 other owners dying to move their teams to Edmonton.

Edmonton is probably per-capita the richest city in North America and one of the craziest about hockey. It's just way too profitable for it to not exist.

As long as people want oil, Edmonton will have a team.
Nope. NHL is private and Gary will not go bat a second time. If Edmo loses and Quebec gets the Yotes then Edm is out of luck.

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09-19-2012, 02:00 PM
  #49
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First, Katz threat to move is non-credible. There is nowhere better to move, and half the league is in a worse financial position than Edmonton and want the few available locations for themselves. This is doubly so when you consider the abismal product that the Oilers have put on the ice since the lockout. The Oilers arn't even fake NHL .500 since the lockout, compiling a record of 248-261-65 in that timeframe.

Second, the Arena cost does not need to be anywhere near $450 mil, this is a bloated project greased with public money for private profit, and should be opposed. I can see it costing upwards of $300 mil for a credible, modern arena, but the rest of the money is pure bloat.

Third, Edmonton has more money than Winnipeg (this is a city which is nearly twice as large), and should be able to build a new arena with private money and turn a profit. IMHO, the only subsidy that the City of Edmonton should provide is demolition of the current arena to give the new Arena a monopoly, and for a light rail station at/near the Arena. The rest should be left to private funds.

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09-19-2012, 02:11 PM
  #50
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Second, the Arena cost does not need to be anywhere near $450 mil, this is a bloated project greased with public money for private profit, and should be opposed. I can see it costing upwards of $300 mil for a credible, modern arena, but the rest of the money is pure bloat.
Construction costs in Alberta are probably some of the highest in North America. Labour here is expensive.

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