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Brian Burke vs. Marc Bergevin

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09-19-2012, 06:43 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by pelletier666 View Post
It would be great if the Leafs had Carey Price...
Sure would. That being said, would re-signing him make Burke a genius? Come on now, wake me up when MB starts putting his stamp on the team.

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09-19-2012, 06:44 AM
  #27
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MaxPac and Price insignificant. Be serious lad.
Those were RFAs. Any GM would have made those moves. Signing your young talent when are RFAs is not a feat but more like common sense.

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09-19-2012, 06:58 AM
  #28
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Those were RFAs. Any GM would have made those moves. Signing your young talent when are RFAs is not a feat but more like common sense.
What about the fact that he signed a solid character guy like Colby? Why can't Burke ever sign guys like that?

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09-19-2012, 08:33 AM
  #29
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Best thing Bergervin has done was to accept the GM position in Monrtreal. He's a PR dream in response to the culural backlash prior to his hire. He hired Dudley. He's listened to his draft staff and he's dotted and crossed when he should have (Although Pernell may mar his debut), but it is intellectually irresponsible to contrive an instance in which Bergevin and Burke should be compared, one with a couple of months and that new store bought smell, the other burnished as only years as a Toronto GM can craft.

But if we're comparing draft staffs, from the outset it looks like Montreal has done exceptionally well. But Rielly and Finn give a pretty good go to Gally and Colberg. Had Toronto had a 2nd 1st, and still selected Finn, it would be correct to call Toronto's first two picks homeruns. That the Leafs found him in the 2nd...Not too shabby.

Time will tell in both instances.

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09-19-2012, 09:03 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
I love how a great draft is drafting highly ranked players in late rounds... the fell for a reason
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Originally Posted by ITM View Post
Best thing Bergervin has done was to accept the GM position in Monrtreal. He's a PR dream in response to the culural backlash prior to his hire. He hired Dudley. He's listened to his draft staff and he's dotted and crossed when he should have (Although Pernell may mar his debut), but it is intellectually irresponsible to contrive an instance in which Bergevin and Burke should be compared, one with a couple of months and that new store bought smell, the other burnished as only years as a Toronto GM can craft.

But if we're comparing draft staffs, from the outset it looks like Montreal has done exceptionally well. But Rielly and Finn give a pretty good go to Gally and Colberg. Had Toronto had a 2nd 1st, and still selected Finn, it would be correct to call Toronto's first two picks homeruns. That the Leafs found him in the 2nd...Not too shabby.

Time will tell in both instances.
I can't decide ... is it good to get higher ranked players or did they fall for a reason?


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09-19-2012, 09:03 AM
  #31
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The writing is on the wall.

Leafs ex assistant GM Rick Dudley, whom is well respected around the league, freely chose working for Marc Bergevin over Brian Burke.

Burke even had to restrain Dudley's departure time, to post entry draft while still under contract, as he couldn't get out the door fast enough to join Montreal.

Dudley for one believes the grass is greener elsewhere.

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09-19-2012, 09:09 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I can't decide ... is it good to get higher ranked players or did they fall for a reason?

Guess that we don't need Canadiens fans around to mock the opinions of Leaf fans.

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09-19-2012, 09:11 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I can't decide ... is it good to get higher ranked players or did they fall for a reason?

I guess it would depend on which person you asked.

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09-19-2012, 09:13 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Guess that we don't need Canadiens fans around to mock the opinions of Leaf fans.
Perhaps we should be consistent, regardless of whether we are ranking the Canadiens, Leafs, or Coyotes draft picks. If a Leafs' GM does the same thing a Canadiens' GM does isn't it the same thing, or do we throw on the blue tinted goggles before we judge?

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09-19-2012, 09:13 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The writing is on the wall.

Leafs ex assistant GM Rick Dudley, whom is well respected around the league, freely chose working for Marc Bergevin over Brian Burke.

Burke even had to restrain Dudley's departure time, to post entry draft while still under contract, as he couldn't get out the door fast enough to join Montreal.

Dudley for one believes the grass is greener elsewhere.
Big fish in a big pond I guess. Or less chefs in the kitchen?

We all know Nonis is Burkes guy.

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09-19-2012, 09:20 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The writing is on the wall.

Leafs ex assistant GM Rick Dudley, whom is well respected around the league, freely chose working for Marc Bergevin over Brian Burke.

Burke even had to restrain Dudley's departure time, to post entry draft while still under contract, as he couldn't get out the door fast enough to join Montreal.

Dudley for one believes the grass is greener elsewhere.
Glass is always half empty isn't it.

Dudley was getting a promotion, of course he wants to move to his new team as soon as possible. Help them out during the period of time that is the most crucial for a teams future.

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09-19-2012, 09:30 AM
  #37
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Bergevin came to Montreal with a number 1 goalie and potentially 2 top dmen in Markov(if he stays healthy) and Subban(who is on the cusp), Burke came to Toronto with well Schenn.

The teams both GMs started out with are far too different to even compare. I think Bergevin has made some pretty good moves in an effort to get his team to at least be tough to play against. If we have a season I can still see MTL in the bottom of the conference with the Leafs.

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09-19-2012, 09:35 AM
  #38
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Bergevin vs Burke?


Ya, things must be slow.

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09-19-2012, 09:42 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
Glass is always half empty isn't it.

Dudley was getting a promotion, of course he wants to move to his new team as soon as possible. Help them out during the period of time that is the most crucial for a teams future.
Agreed, Dudley is known for his talent evaluation skills, and the entry draft is the best place to start when team building.

Dudley desperately wanted to help Montreal GM Bergevin out, rather than the current team he was employed by, during the period of time that is the most crucial for a teams future. Yup that is what I was saying, as actions speak louder than words..

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09-19-2012, 09:45 AM
  #40
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Drafting Galchenyuk/Collberg/etc = Trevor Timmins
Timmins said he didn't sleep at all knowing he had a chance to draft Collberg in the second round.

Let's wait before comparing Bergevin and Burke...

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09-19-2012, 09:49 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Perhaps we should be consistent, regardless of whether we are ranking the Canadiens, Leafs, or Coyotes draft picks. If a Leafs' GM does the same thing a Canadiens' GM does isn't it the same thing, or do we throw on the blue tinted goggles before we judge?
Beats me, I don't have much of an opinion of prospects that have just been drafted but there are plenty of fans who do for every team in the league so Leafs fans should be able to in their own group, right?

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09-19-2012, 09:52 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Agreed, Dudley is known for his talent evaluation skills, and the entry draft is the best place to start when team building.

Dudley desperately wanted to help Montreal GM Bergevin out, rather than the current team he was employed by, during the period of time that is the most crucial for a teams future. Yup that is what I was saying, as actions speak louder than words..
Desperately wanted to help out their GM?

He was offered a promotion, likely more money, and spoke highly about Burke and co. upon his departure.

Those long days off must have turned your brain to mush if you wouldn't accept a promotion and more money at a rival firm.

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09-19-2012, 10:00 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Perhaps we should be consistent, regardless of whether we are ranking the Canadiens, Leafs, or Coyotes draft picks. If a Leafs' GM does the same thing a Canadiens' GM does isn't it the same thing, or do we throw on the blue tinted goggles before we judge?
if two gms do the same thing, its not the same thing. it depends which team they happen to be running. yes, we throw on the blue-tinted goggles before giving our opinion.

lets not pretend anyone is unbiased in their opinions.

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09-19-2012, 10:03 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by anderson3133 View Post
Desperately wanted to help out their GM?

He was offered a promotion, likely more money, and spoke highly about Burke and co. upon his departure.

Those long days off must have turned your brain to mush if you wouldn't accept a promotion and more money at a rival firm.
Not me, much like Mess I'd rather hold off on my promotion, take less money. Wouldn't wanna give anyone the wrong impression.

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09-19-2012, 10:10 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by anderson3133 View Post
Desperately wanted to help out their GM?

He was offered a promotion, likely more money, and spoke highly about Burke and co. upon his departure.

Those long days off must have turned your brain to mush if you wouldn't accept a promotion and more money at a rival firm.
Well put. It was a promotion to a more prominent role with another team. I don't think Burke and Dudley were under any illusion that this wasn't a pit stop for Dudley until something bigger (either with the Leafs or another team) came along.

I expect nothing less from the biggest spin doctor on these boards. Can't recall the last post Mess made which wasn't laced with acrimony.

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09-19-2012, 10:49 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by PasDaSquini View Post
Bergevin came to Montreal with a number 1 goalie and potentially 2 top dmen in Markov(if he stays healthy) and Subban(who is on the cusp), Burke came to Toronto with well Schenn.

The teams both GMs started out with are far too different to even compare. I think Bergevin has made some pretty good moves in an effort to get his team to at least be tough to play against. If we have a season I can still see MTL in the bottom of the conference with the Leafs.
As A Hab fan I agree with your post. The only comparison one can make is how each GM viewed their team and team needs when they took over, and what route they chose in correcting them. I will leave it up to Leaf fans to decide what Burke's route was.
So far Bergevin has gone with basically status quo on the NHL roster. He signed players that either met a need or are insurance policies against the need to call-up prospects from the AHL before they are ready. He decided Timmins draft record was great and retained him, while adding a lot of new blood into the organization to look after the development of these picks.
He is going to ice the youngest team in the AHL this season, so the current crop of prospects for the most part are really not NHL ready, and need a lot of work. The only two things so far that can be questioned are the hiring of Therrien as coach, and his not signing veteran AHL talent to shield the rookies playing pro hockey for the first time in Hamilton.
He did not attempt to make his mark by turning over the roster, so only time will tell if the team is better then they showed last year in a nightmare of a season both in management/coaching and injuries. In my opinion he did everything so far calmly and did not give up any assets in a panic move or exchange of bad contracts. He is giving himself time to evaluate the team and prospects first, and then will start making moves to improve the team down the road.

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09-19-2012, 10:57 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by HABitual Fan View Post
As A Hab fan I agree with your post. The only comparison one can make is how each GM viewed their team and team needs when they took over, and what route they chose in correcting them. I will leave it up to Leaf fans to decide what Burke's route was.
So far Bergevin has gone with basically status quo on the NHL roster. He signed players that either met a need or are insurance policies against the need to call-up prospects from the AHL before they are ready. He decided Timmins draft record was great and retained him, while adding a lot of new blood into the organization to look after the development of these picks.
He is going to ice the youngest team in the AHL this season, so the current crop of prospects for the most part are really not NHL ready, and need a lot of work. The only two things so far that can be questioned are the hiring of Therrien as coach, and his not signing veteran AHL talent to shield the rookies playing pro hockey for the first time in Hamilton.
He did not attempt to make his mark by turning over the roster, so only time will tell if the team is better then they showed last year in a nightmare of a season both in management/coaching and injuries. In my opinion he did everything so far calmly and did not give up any assets in a panic move or exchange of bad contracts. He is giving himself time to evaluate the team and prospects first, and then will start making moves to improve the team down the road.
How long do you think Bergevin gives himself? Are Habs fans ok with tanking another year?

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09-19-2012, 11:30 AM
  #48
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How long do you think Bergevin gives himself? Are Habs fans ok with tanking another year?
I think that when he was hired, Molson knew that no real change could take place for two seasons due to existing contracts so I would guess Bergevin knows that the team will really be his come the 2014-15 season as he will have the cap freedom to go his route only then. As to tanking, I don't believe anyone thought last year was a deliberate tank considering all involved wound up losing their jobs. I can't speak for all Habs fans but drafting Gally at #3 with the first high pick we've had in in a long time was not as painful as I thought it would be, and if it means letting the kids develop in the AHL where they belong and losing while watching some big contracts come off the books, I could personally live with another top pick. As long as we do not sacrifice good players to get there or take on more bad contracts that will block either the kids down the road, or take up cap space for signings down the road I won't complain as sadly being mediocre for too long, keeps you a mediocre team with only mediocre draft positions. Both our fanbases are starving for the young superstar that is only available usually at the top of the draft.

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09-19-2012, 12:02 PM
  #49
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The difference between the two is Marc Bergevin didn't mortgage the future of the team to improve it today. He is preaching patience and seems to actually be commited to his strategy of rebuilding this team the right way, where burke told his fanbase, "we want a quick 1-2 year turnaround and has utterly destroyed your team because of it. Can he still recover..I think yes, drafting morgan reilly and aqcuiring JVR were steps in the right direction, but he has to stop with the quick fix crap and realize that nobody escapes the rules of the rebuild. It's long and it's painful, but the sooner burke realizes it the sooner the leafs become a relevant team again. The question is, how long is ownership willing to give him to produce some results, because the fact is, he's entering year 5, and the team is actually worse than when he arrived.

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09-19-2012, 12:10 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by HABitual Fan View Post
I think that when he was hired, Molson knew that no real change could take place for two seasons due to existing contracts so I would guess Bergevin knows that the team will really be his come the 2014-15 season as he will have the cap freedom to go his route only then. As to tanking, I don't believe anyone thought last year was a deliberate tank considering all involved wound up losing their jobs. I can't speak for all Habs fans but drafting Gally at #3 with the first high pick we've had in in a long time was not as painful as I thought it would be, and if it means letting the kids develop in the AHL where they belong and losing while watching some big contracts come off the books, I could personally live with another top pick. As long as we do not sacrifice good players to get there or take on more bad contracts that will block either the kids down the road, or take up cap space for signings down the road I won't complain as sadly being mediocre for too long, keeps you a mediocre team with only mediocre draft positions. Both our fanbases are starving for the young superstar that is only available usually at the top of the draft.
Totally agree. Future could be very bright for both teams, with a little patience.

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