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Busting The Patrick Roy Myth

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Old
09-19-2012, 11:13 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by pigpen65 View Post
The worst thing to happen for the Roy supporters was for Hasek to get traded to Detroit and win a cup. They never thought it would happen so for the entire time he was in Buffalo they always got to say that Roy was clearly the better player since he had won a cup and Hasek hadn't. Then Hasek actually went to a good team the way Roy played for his entire career, won a cup barely trying, and all of a sudden that argument was gone. I'm sure they were crushed.
That's presupposing that "Roy supporters" aren't also fans of Hasek - a lot of us were very happy for Hasek (although I wasn't thrilled the way that they beat my Avs to do so).

It's not necessarily as "us vs. them" as you're trying to paint.

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09-19-2012, 11:17 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, I don't know what else to say except it astounds me that people can argue that a player isn't "as big of part" as someone else claims, and another person can read that as "wasn't a big part... period". If that's what you're interpreting here, then no wonder reading gives you headaches.
Where do you draw the line from "being a part of the team" and "carrying the team"? Conn Smythes? Save %ages? I mean seriously, this argument is moot.

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09-19-2012, 11:20 AM
  #78
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IIRC, Gainey retired after the 86 cup. He was one of, if not the best defensive forward he was still on the decline and not as good as he once was. Chelios and Carbonneau were just coming into their own.

He played a crucial role in the cups in Colorado, but those were skilled teams. People can't forget that Ozolinsh was easily in the same circle as Lidstrom in 96.

If you use HHoF as examples, then why not do that for 93 opponents in Gretzky and Kurri ?

With retrospect, the 86 Flames look like a tank. However, imo those great players weren't at their peak, but just learning/on their way up.

Playing lesser opponents did help in his wins with the habs, however, he was great. Even if you suck, you can still score in OT. 10 consecutive ot wins aren't all by luck... Timely scoring from everyone and great goaltending.

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09-19-2012, 11:28 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Funny, I think the common argument for Roy is more about how important he was to those Cup teams. And are you seriously trying to say that Roy played on teams as stacked as the 2002 Red Wings his entire career?
I'm saying Roy never played on teams as bad as Buffalo.

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09-19-2012, 11:32 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
That's presupposing that "Roy supporters" aren't also fans of Hasek - a lot of us were very happy for Hasek (although I wasn't thrilled the way that they beat my Avs to do so).

It's not necessarily as "us vs. them" as you're trying to paint.
Now. 10-15 years ago it was "us vs them." Particularly it was Canadian vs the rest. Gretzky was the best forward ever. Orr was the best defenseman ever. Roy, or some other Canadian goalie, was the best goalie ever. When a Czech started being mentioned in the conversation for best ever, and this started late 90's, Canadians got real uncomfortable. You're right it's not like that as much anymore, but i remember watching Cherry about that time and hearing the argument. Flat out, Roy was better and would always be better because he won a cup. Canadians are champions, and Hasek the foreigner was all flash, no substance. He couldn't go all the way. Like i said though, that was when everybody was pretty sure there was no chance of Buffalo ever letting him go to another team.

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09-19-2012, 11:36 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by pigpen65 View Post
Now. 10-15 years ago it was "us vs them."
Well, if you're going to do this in a binary fashion, then I guess you've cast me into the "neither" group. Because I've always been a fan of both Hasek and Roy.

I can't believe that you're using Don Cherry - the biggest xenophobe to get airtime in the history of Canada - siding with Canadian Roy against European Hasek - as an example of this.

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09-19-2012, 11:37 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigpen65 View Post
Now. 10-15 years ago it was "us vs them." Particularly it was Canadian vs the rest. Gretzky was the best forward ever. Orr was the best defenseman ever. Roy, or some other Canadian goalie, was the best goalie ever. When a Czech started being mentioned in the conversation for best ever, and this started late 90's, Canadians got real uncomfortable. You're right it's not like that as much anymore, but i remember watching Cherry about that time and hearing the argument. Flat out, Roy was better and would always be better because he won a cup. Canadians are champions, and Hasek the foreigner was all flash, no substance. He couldn't go all the way. Like i said though, that was when everybody was pretty sure there was no chance of Buffalo ever letting him go to another team.
I'm an American and I prefer Roy to Hasek. Where do I fit into your "us vs them" narrative?

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09-19-2012, 11:53 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm an American and I prefer Roy to Hasek. Where do I fit into your "us vs them" narrative?
Nobody fits into my "us vs them" narrative anymore. I was talking about pre-cup Hasek vs Roy argument.

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09-19-2012, 11:54 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by pigpen65 View Post
Nobody fits into my "us vs them" narrative anymore. I was talking about pre-cup Hasek vs Roy argument.
Ummm...okay. I was a fan of both prior to Hasek's Cup, and I'm an American (and I was an American then, too). Where do I fit?

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09-19-2012, 12:00 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I can't believe that you're using Don Cherry - the biggest xenophobe to get airtime in the history of Canada - siding with Canadian Roy against European Hasek - as an example of this.
The guy is a national treasure, with a long established extremely popular show on the nation's most hockey honored tradition, hockey night in Canada. I mean, i assume all that popularity comes from a certain amount of agreement with his opinions.

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09-19-2012, 12:03 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Ummm...okay. I was a fan of both prior to Hasek's Cup, and I'm an American (and I was an American then, too). Where do I fit?
If you were a fan of both you obviously wouldn't fit into the Canadian biased criticism of Hasek's lack of a championship as the major deciding factor in the debate. I think you lost track of the argument a bit.

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09-19-2012, 12:07 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by pigpen65 View Post
They never thought it would happen so for the entire time he was in Buffalo they always got to say that Roy was clearly the better player since he had won a cup and Hasek hadn't.
If that was the argument, you don't need Hasek to win a Cup to defeat it. You defeat it by explaining that hockey is a team game and individual players, no mater how good, can only do so much.

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IIRC, Gainey retired after the 86 cup.
This is not the sort of thing that needs to go on memory. Gainey played until the 1988/89 season.

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09-19-2012, 12:11 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by pigpen65 View Post
I mean, i assume all that popularity comes from a certain amount of agreement with his opinions.
Not necessarily. Many people love a freakshow, and rubbernecking is popular at train wrecks.

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09-19-2012, 12:36 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by pigpen65 View Post
If you were a fan of both you obviously wouldn't fit into the Canadian biased criticism of Hasek's lack of a championship as the major deciding factor in the debate. I think you lost track of the argument a bit.
I can't really recall a lot of Canadians going around trying to denigrate Hasek just to protect the Canadian goaltender, Roy. Many people in Canada disliked Roy immensely. Also, in 1998 Hasek got almost all of the credit (in Canada) for beating the Canadian Olympic team, for which Roy was the goaltender. I highly doubt that most of the people who said Hasek needed a cup to be near Roy were saying it for nationalistic reasons. It's a pretty common criticism of goaltenders, even those from Canada.

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09-19-2012, 01:43 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Why do Hockey fans still believe the myth that Roy won with undermanned teams?
This myth only exists in your mind. Seriously.

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09-19-2012, 01:55 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Not necessarily. Many people love a freakshow, and rubbernecking is popular at train wrecks.
Don Cherry hasn't been on the air for 30 years because he is a train wreck. It's because he has become one of the most popular and admired Canadians alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I can't believe that you're using Don Cherry - the biggest xenophobe to get airtime in the history of Canada - siding with Canadian Roy against European Hasek - as an example of this.
I assume you don't watch much Quebec TV.

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09-19-2012, 02:30 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by pigpen65 View Post
I'm saying Roy never played on teams as bad as Buffalo.
In 1995, Hasek's Sabres scored more goals, had a better powerplay, a better shot differential, and finished higher in the standings than Roy's Canadians.

In 1997, Hasek's Sabres won their division (Roy's Avalanche were better though).

I realize I'm nitpicking the word "never," but, well, there's an awful lot of hyperbole by Hasek fans in this thread

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09-19-2012, 03:08 PM
  #93
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It's hyperbole. All I am saying is the vast majority of the time the Habs and Avs beat teams that they were better than outside and inside of net. Here's a stat for you. The Habs and Avs won 34 playoff series with Roy and a whooping 4 of them came against division winners.
Kinda hard to beat a division winner pre-94 if you win your own division... unless you win rounds 1 and 2 and the other division winner in your conference does the same. similar story post-94. If you win your division you are definitely not facing a division champion in round 1, and almost certainly not in round 2 either (it would be a 2/3 matchup and those are rare because 1, 2, 3 all have to win, and that never happens)

This stat is really silly without context. So he beat 4 division winners. How many beat him? And at least 3 division winners lose every year, so who are the goalies always beating them? Is there any real correllation between being a great goalie and being the goalie on a team that upsets a division winner?

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Old
09-19-2012, 04:03 PM
  #94
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Roy was incredible in the 96 playoffs. Red Wings broke the regular season record, Russian Five was tearing the league apart, and he stopped them. Give the devil his due.

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09-19-2012, 05:08 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Roy was incredible in the 96 playoffs. Red Wings broke the regular season record, Russian Five was tearing the league apart, and he stopped them. Give the devil his due.
Gotta agree. I couldn't stand Roy and his arrogance but you learned to have a begrudging respect for him when you saw what he could do in the playoffs against your favourite team.

He made that Avs team into an instant contender when he was traded there. Maybe the Avs would have struggled to get over the hump like the Red Wings did if they only had an average goalie instead of that cocky brick wall in net. I hated Roy after '96 and thought he was doing it again after game 1 in '97.

I always thought he inflated the reputations of a lot of his teammates. Often times goaltending seems to be everything in the playoffs and it can make a forward or d teammate appear to be clutch while the opposition appears to be a choker when in fact it's just the goalie standing on his head.

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09-19-2012, 05:09 PM
  #96
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Roy was incredible in the 96 playoffs. Red Wings broke the regular season record, Russian Five was tearing the league apart, and he stopped them. Give the devil his due.
2001 Devils scored 295 goals, 3.60 gpg, the highest total of any team from 1996-97 to 2003-04. They scored 58 goals in 18 games, 3.22 gpg through three rounds of the playoffs. Roy helped hold them to 11 goals in 7 games, 1.57 gpg, in the finals, and allowed only 1 goal in games 6 and 7 combined. Colorado's defense played very well, but Roy was the most important part

As a Devils' fan, it was shocking how much trouble that offensive juggernaut had at getting the puck past Roy. The injury to Randy McKay badly hurt the second PP unit, but that was the only major injury to the team.

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09-19-2012, 06:14 PM
  #97
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It also helped that Colorado limited a New Jersey team that averaged 31.6 shots/game in the regular season to 25.4 shots/game.

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09-19-2012, 06:23 PM
  #98
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It also helped that Colorado limited a New Jersey team that averaged 31.6 shots/game in the regular season to 25.4 shots/game.
Of course, it helped. Colorado's defense was excellent, but Roy was the most important part. By game 6, Alex Mogilny had basically given up...

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09-19-2012, 07:27 PM
  #99
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Don Cherry hasn't been on the air for 30 years because he is a train wreck. It's because he has become one of the most popular and admired Canadians alive.
As I said, not necessarily.

He's the Marmite of Canadian TV: reviled by as many who love him.

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09-19-2012, 08:02 PM
  #100
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89 Flames worse??

Gilmour
Fleury
Macinnis--conn smythe
Vernon
suter
Otto
Nieuwendyk
Joe Mullen

they were stacked my friend.
Gary Roberts too, all in their prime or very young still.
Also all star Rob Ramage, Jamie Macoun (the Calgary version of Kevin Lowe), recent former 50-goal scorer Hakan Loob, standout defensive defenseman Brad McCrimmon and of course the inspirational HOFer and 500 goal scorer Lanny MacDonald.

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