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Old
09-17-2012, 09:42 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobloblawLeaf View Post
The fact that you didn't pick somebody doesn't mean you don't want them. I'm sure Edmonton would love to trade for Ryan Murray even though they drafted Yakupov instead of him.
Yakupov was gift wrapped and didn't cost a thing. murray would cost them considerable assets I'm not sure they want to give up.

Also, while we're on the subject, Anaheim's biggest organizational weakness is at center. Not defense. If anything, we were set on D when we drafted Lindholm. If Grigorenko was worth it enough to trade for Getzlaf, yes, we would've just drafted Grigorenko.

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09-17-2012, 09:43 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Grigorenko is a top prospect in every sense of the word.
Perhaps. That remains to be seen. This is a player who dropped a fair bit during the draft. At this point, I think he needs to reinforce that he is a top prospect with his play on the ice. Either way, he's a prospect that Anaheim had an opportunity to pick up during the draft, and they passed. Let's say Grigorenko's upside could be Getzlaf. Why are the Ducks trading a sure thing for a possibility? The best player in this trade is heading to Buffalo, and it leaves Anaheim in a tough spot. Whatever Grigorenko might be, he certainly is not a #1 center right now.

The bottom line is that even going for a full blown rebuild, the Ducks have no reason to move either one of Perry or Getzlaf. Not until they've made real attempts to re-sign them, with no success. Both of them are young enough to be considered long-term options in a rebuild.

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09-17-2012, 09:44 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
Why is Anaheim rebuilding exactly? Last season was an abberation, we've made the playoffs 5 out of the last 7 years, our core players are in their early to mid 20s and we have plenty of quality forward prospects who are on the verge of being NHL ready.
Because it's already September and you haven't resigned your upcoming UFA's obviously.

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09-17-2012, 09:48 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BobloblawLeaf View Post
The fact that you didn't pick somebody doesn't mean you don't want them. I'm sure Edmonton would love to trade for Ryan Murray even though they drafted Yakupov instead of him.
You're talking about a team that picked the consensus #1 pick at #1. Grigorenko is a player who dropped, and when you consider that Anaheim was a team that could have picked him up higher than he went, it does say something about how they rate him. Furthermore, the Ducks aren't getting Grigorenko for free in this deal. They are giving up the best player in the trade, and for what? The hope that Grigorenko can be as good some day? Anaheim is taking all the risk in this deal. If Grigorenko pans out, Buffalo still ends up with Ryan Getzlaf. However, what if Grigorenko doesn't pan out? Buffalo still has Ryan Getzlaf, and Anaheim is in real trouble. Anaheim would be wagering, at the very least, the next five years on Grigorenko. Pass.

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09-17-2012, 09:52 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Not going to kill the deal, don't see Anaheim doing this. Grigorenko is an awesome prospect, Adam's stock took a bit of hit last year, still think he is a good player. At the very least this trade needs Stafford or Pominville involved. You don't trade a player of Getzlaf's quality and an established NHL D-man without at least one proven top 6 player of less value than Getzlaf coming back.

Of course at the point you do that nobody in Buffalo will want to include Grigorenko anymore, if they ever really did in the first place. They should considering how good Getzlaf is, I think most Gm's would assuming the extension/right to talk to him was approved.
We take two UFA's off their hands for three long term solid prospects. Brennan will probably surpass Lydman when he gets his chance, he just hasn't gotten his shot here because of logjam, same with Adam I believe. Don't think you're gonna be able to upgrade to stafford, let alone our Captain and most consistent play overall.

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09-17-2012, 09:58 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by cramdizzl View Post
We take two UFA's off their hands for three long term solid prospects. Brennan will probably surpass Lydman when he gets his chance, he just hasn't gotten his shot here because of logjam, same with Adam I believe. Don't think you're gonna be able to upgrade to stafford, let alone our Captain and most consistent play overall.
How nice of Buffalo to take Getzlaf off our hands.

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09-17-2012, 10:00 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
You're talking about a team that picked the consensus #1 pick at #1. Grigorenko is a player who dropped, and when you consider that Anaheim was a team that could have picked him up higher than he went, it does say something about how they rate him. Furthermore, the Ducks aren't getting Grigorenko for free in this deal. They are giving up the best player in the trade, and for what? The hope that Grigorenko can be as good some day? Anaheim is taking all the risk in this deal. If Grigorenko pans out, Buffalo still ends up with Ryan Getzlaf. However, what if Grigorenko doesn't pan out? Buffalo still has Ryan Getzlaf, and Anaheim is in real trouble. Anaheim would be wagering, at the very least, the next five years on Grigorenko. Pass.
How do you feel about Ennis OR Hodgson, and tweak the other two.

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09-17-2012, 10:01 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Perhaps. That remains to be seen. This is a player who dropped a fair bit during the draft. At this point, I think he needs to reinforce that he is a top prospect with his play on the ice. Either way, he's a prospect that Anaheim had an opportunity to pick up during the draft, and they passed. Let's say Grigorenko's upside could be Getzlaf. Why are the Ducks trading a sure thing for a possibility? The best player in this trade is heading to Buffalo, and it leaves Anaheim in a tough spot. Whatever Grigorenko might be, he certainly is not a #1 center right now.

The bottom line is that even going for a full blown rebuild, the Ducks have no reason to move either one of Perry or Getzlaf. Not until they've made real attempts to re-sign them, with no success. Both of them are young enough to be considered long-term options in a rebuild.
This is sound logic. Obviously Couturier fell for a reason too. And hey, Tyler Myers was ranked 4th before his draft and fell to us at 12, so he obviously had limited upside.
And Grigorenko's upside is absolutely not Getzlaf -- the players are nothing alike whatsoever. Grigs compares his game to Malkin, but I think Thornton or Spezza is probably a better comparable. If this kid hits (or is close to) his ceiling, there's no reason he shouldn't be one of the better centers in the NHL.

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Old
09-17-2012, 10:07 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by cramdizzl View Post
How do you feel about Ennis OR Hodgson, and tweak the other two.
As a replacement for Grigorenko? You're going to need to be more specific.

If that's the case, I still don't think Anaheim does it. Holland and Bonino are probably both going to get consideration in the #2 spot. Bonino seems to be the more NHL-ready of the two, but Holland is undeniably the more talented prospect. Either way, the Ducks do have hopes to fill their issues down the middle in-house, which will give them pause before trying something that drastic.

I just don't think the Ducks will ever consider trading Getzlaf, unless he just refuses to re-sign with them after repeated attempts. He had a bad season, but at this point it's just an anomaly. He had four straight PPG(or higher) seasons before this last one, and when you combine that offense with the size and strength he brings, I just don't know that any GM would consider it. Would you trade him? I sure wouldn't.

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09-17-2012, 10:14 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
This is sound logic. Obviously Couturier fell for a reason too. And hey, Tyler Myers was ranked 4th before his draft and fell to us at 12, so he obviously had limited upside.
And Grigorenko's upside is absolutely not Getzlaf -- the players are nothing alike whatsoever. Grigs compares his game to Malkin, but I think Thornton or Spezza is probably a better comparable. If this kid hits (or is close to) his ceiling, there's no reason he shouldn't be one of the better centers in the NHL.
First off, other players have fallen too, and hindsight has shown there was just cause. Cherry picking a few players who fell, but still exceled does not dispute what I said.

Furthermore, I wasn't saying he was a mirror image of Getzlaf. Let's say, like Getzlaf, he can be a top center in the league. Anaheim still has no motivation to move Getzlaf. They already have a fantastic center. Being pedantic isn't an argument. Anaheim is still taking all the risk. There is absolutely no guarantee that Grigorenko becomes even half as good as any of those players you named. Don't get your shackles up because I don't think my team should take a risk on a prospect you like, a prospect the Ducks already had an opportunity to acquire. If he proves the naysayers wrong, great. I'm happy for your team. But Anaheim would be insane to move Getzlaf in hopes that one day Grigorenko might be able to replace him.

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:03 AM
  #36
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I feel like this would be Toronto offering Rielly (or 5th overall pick prior to draft) + Frattin + Mikus/Holzer. Ducks would say no to this, have been down this road before haha. It isn't a perfect comparison to the OP by any means but I think close enough to see it isn't going to change Anaheim's mind.

The most value coming from Buffalo at this point is probably the biggest question mark still in the fact that the player is the most recently drafted. The other two players aren't enough to make up the difference in my opinion.

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09-18-2012, 01:15 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cramdizzl View Post
We take two UFA's off their hands for three long term solid prospects. Brennan will probably surpass Lydman when he gets his chance, he just hasn't gotten his shot here because of logjam, same with Adam I believe. Don't think you're gonna be able to upgrade to stafford, let alone our Captain and most consistent play overall.
So you have such a logjam they are throwing in Lydman because??? By the way I don't think the package gets it done for Getzlaf alone, you're also having them throw in a pretty good NHL d-man because people are scared of UFA players? Getzlaf is Anaheim captain, does that not factor in?

The whole lot of probably players even while I like all three is not enough to get the legitimate established guys being asked for one of which is a superstar.

I am not upgrading to anything, I don't even like the Ducks as Detroit fan they are very far from my favorite team as no Ducks fan would have a problem pointing out in the other direction. I am just talking about what I think it would take for them to even get seriously involved in discussions. If he has to be dealt that is a different scenario. But as far as potential UFA players go Getzlaf staying with the Ducks is about as certain as any player staying with a team. If the season goes in the tanks and they decide to rebuild I could see it. But even then his wife from the area and he has stated over and over he would like to stay. See no reason a bunch of maybes would even start to get Anaheim interested. It would have to be a substantial hockey trade to move him right now, this is more of a deadline deal, even then they can probably do better in that scenario.

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09-18-2012, 01:36 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
First off, other players have fallen too, and hindsight has shown there was just cause. Cherry picking a few players who fell, but still exceled does not dispute what I said.

Furthermore, I wasn't saying he was a mirror image of Getzlaf. Let's say, like Getzlaf, he can be a top center in the league. Anaheim still has no motivation to move Getzlaf. They already have a fantastic center. Being pedantic isn't an argument. Anaheim is still taking all the risk. There is absolutely no guarantee that Grigorenko becomes even half as good as any of those players you named. Don't get your shackles up because I don't think my team should take a risk on a prospect you like, a prospect the Ducks already had an opportunity to acquire. If he proves the naysayers wrong, great. I'm happy for your team. But Anaheim would be insane to move Getzlaf in hopes that one day Grigorenko might be able to replace him.
I figured it was pretty obvious that the premise of this trade was Getzlaf won't re-up in Anaheim but will work out a deal with Buffalo. In that case, yes, it absolutely makes sense for the Ducks to get assets for him (including a blue chip center prospect that could replace him) rather than letting him walk for nothing. I don't follow the Ducks closely so I don't know what those odds are -- y'all seem to believe the likelihood is very high that Getzlaf will re-sign, and if that happens, then this trade obviously doesn't. Which is fine, because I'm very excited about Grigorenko and can't wait to watch him develop and become a Sabre and would honestly rather keep investing in the youth movement than in a core of players who haven't done anything since Drury and Briere left.


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09-19-2012, 12:37 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by cramdizzl View Post
How do you feel about Ennis OR Hodgson, and tweak the other two.
There's no chance they put Ennis in there. I say let the Ducks keep Getz. Like I've said before, he's a good center on an awesome line. If we had Perry and Ryan, Gausted could of centered them and had similar numbers for the last 3 years. He's a good center, but not worth giving up our future stars for.

Besides, you could offer Jesus himself, and Ducks fans would say there getting a raw deal so there's no point in even mentioning a trade.

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09-19-2012, 01:23 PM
  #40
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Can we stop trying to convince Anaheim to take Grigorenko for Getzlaf? It's ridiculous...

The only way this deal would ever happen is if Getzlaf specifically told them that he was not going to re-sign in Anaheim, and even if he did, I would be hesitant because we may not be able to re-sign him.

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There's no chance they put Ennis in there. I say let the Ducks keep Getz. Like I've said before, he's a good center on an awesome line. If we had Perry and Ryan, Gausted could of centered them and had similar numbers for the last 3 years. He's a good center, but not worth giving up our future stars for.

Besides, you could offer Jesus himself, and Ducks fans would say there getting a raw deal so there's no point in even mentioning a trade.
I understand what you're saying but please don't be ridiculous. IMO, Getzlaf is the most skilled of that trio.

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09-19-2012, 02:09 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by sabrescupbound View Post
There's no chance they put Ennis in there. I say let the Ducks keep Getz. Like I've said before, he's a good center on an awesome line. If we had Perry and Ryan, Gausted could of centered them and had similar numbers for the last 3 years. He's a good center, but not worth giving up our future stars for.

Besides, you could offer Jesus himself, and Ducks fans would say there getting a raw deal so there's no point in even mentioning a trade.
Getzlaf brings more to the table than Gausted ever could. I highly doubt Gausted would ever reach the numbers has made the past three season. Just to add of why we will keep Getzlaf is the reason that he is improving his numbers every single season till last season. Once we got rid of the Carlye system his numbers have improved. I expect him to get back to where he was two season ago and hopefully improve once more. There is no reason Buff and Ana would be trading partners as we both need the same thing.

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09-19-2012, 03:41 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by sabrescupbound View Post
There's no chance they put Ennis in there. I say let the Ducks keep Getz. Like I've said before, he's a good center on an awesome line. If we had Perry and Ryan, Gausted could of centered them and had similar numbers for the last 3 years. He's a good center, but not worth giving up our future stars for.

Besides, you could offer Jesus himself, and Ducks fans would say there getting a raw deal so there's no point in even mentioning a trade.
LOL...I've seen Getzlaf being undervalued/underrated around here quite a bit over the past few months due to his off-season that he had...but this one probably takes the cake for being the most ridiculous. There is no way that you could possibly believe that statement, even having never watched Getzlaf play before.

Do you know that over the course of the past 5 seasons, combined, there are only 15 players who have averaged a point per game? Do you also know that one of those players is Ryan Getzlaf, despite having such a down year this past season? If it were so easy for players to do what Getzlaf did, there would be a hell of a lot more than just 15 players doing it. Look for yourself: The proof is in the pudding. And if you omit his terrible off-season that he just had and only include the 4 years prior to it, then he looks even more impressive in that only 5 players had a higher PPG percentage than he did. Those players being Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, and both Sedins.

Not only would Paul friggin Gaustad not put up similar points to Ryan Getzlaf over the past several seasons, but neither would most players in the NHL. Getzlaf ranks up there with the Elite during the past 5 seasons, so I don't see how you can argue it any other way.

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09-19-2012, 04:40 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by sabrescupbound View Post
There's no chance they put Ennis in there. I say let the Ducks keep Getz. Like I've said before, he's a good center on an awesome line. If we had Perry and Ryan, Gausted could of centered them and had similar numbers for the last 3 years. He's a good center, but not worth giving up our future stars for.

Besides, you could offer Jesus himself, and Ducks fans would say there getting a raw deal so there's no point in even mentioning a trade.
Have you ever actually watched Getzlaf play?

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09-20-2012, 12:57 AM
  #44
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First rule of discussing the RPG-line: whichever player you want in your proposal, that player is a product of the other two guys, and therefore not worth much.

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09-20-2012, 03:02 AM
  #45
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If the Ducks were rebuilding, they'd trade Koivu, Beauchemin, Lydman and wouldn't have signed Allen or Souray. You don't rebuild by trading a star player at 27 years of age, unless you're 15 and you think 27 is old...

The value isn't bad when you take into consideration that Getzlaf only has a year left on his contract, but all things are pointing towards him re-signing. And there's so much more things that weights into this... The Ducks would be without at a #1 center and if they trade Getzlaf they will pretty surely not be able to re-sign Perry either, which has been said on this board plenty of times before.

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Have you ever actually watched Getzlaf play?
Have you seen Gaustad?

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09-20-2012, 03:41 PM
  #46
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LOL...I've seen Getzlaf being undervalued/underrated around here quite a bit over the past few months due to his off-season that he had...but this one probably takes the cake for being the most ridiculous. There is no way that you could possibly believe that statement, even having never watched Getzlaf play before.

Do you know that over the course of the past 5 seasons, combined, there are only 15 players who have averaged a point per game? Do you also know that one of those players is Ryan Getzlaf, despite having such a down year this past season? If it were so easy for players to do what Getzlaf did, there would be a hell of a lot more than just 15 players doing it. Look for yourself: The proof is in the pudding. And if you omit his terrible off-season that he just had and only include the 4 years prior to it, then he looks even more impressive in that only 5 players had a higher PPG percentage than he did. Those players being Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, and both Sedins.

Not only would Paul friggin Gaustad not put up similar points to Ryan Getzlaf over the past several seasons, but neither would most players in the NHL. Getzlaf ranks up there with the Elite during the past 5 seasons, so I don't see how you can argue it any other way.
I wouldn't take 3 Getzlafs for 1 Malkin, Crosby, or Ovechkin. And yes, if you put Paul freakin Gausted between Perry and Ryan, he would look like a totally different player. Much as if you put Getzlaf between Leino and Gerbe, he would look like a totally different player to. Getz would score his 10-20 goals but his assists would drop to nothing. You could put the other guys mentioned with anyone and they'd still get 60-70 points.

Get'z is a good center, don't get me wrong. But I just don't think he's an end all be all center that a lot of people make him out to be. Would I like him on the Sabres, yeah. Would he be as produtive? Maybe, between Vanek and Pommers, I could see him racking up some assists. But I wouldn't give a guy who I think is going to be a 60-70 point player with mediocre line mates.

The point is Get'z plays with great winger's, who have good chemistry. He comes to Buffalo, I see him scoring 15 goals and getting around 30-40 assists. If a trade was to ever happen, I would just be very careful who I gave away. Fan's would be pi**ed seeing Ennis between Ryan and Perry getting 80 or 90 points and Getz getting 50 in Buffalo

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09-20-2012, 04:07 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by sabrescupbound View Post
I wouldn't take 3 Getzlafs for 1 Malkin, Crosby, or Ovechkin. And yes, if you put Paul freakin Gausted between Perry and Ryan, he would look like a totally different player. Much as if you put Getzlaf between Leino and Gerbe, he would look like a totally different player to. Getz would score his 10-20 goals but his assists would drop to nothing. You could put the other guys mentioned with anyone and they'd still get 60-70 points.

Get'z is a good center, don't get me wrong. But I just don't think he's an end all be all center that a lot of people make him out to be. Would I like him on the Sabres, yeah. Would he be as produtive? Maybe, between Vanek and Pommers, I could see him racking up some assists. But I wouldn't give a guy who I think is going to be a 60-70 point player with mediocre line mates.

The point is Get'z plays with great winger's, who have good chemistry. He comes to Buffalo, I see him scoring 15 goals and getting around 30-40 assists. If a trade was to ever happen, I would just be very careful who I gave away. Fan's would be pi**ed seeing Ennis between Ryan and Perry getting 80 or 90 points and Getz getting 50 in Buffalo
Seriously, you think Getzlaf would only put up 15 goals and 30-40 assists with Pominville or Vanek on his side? Not only are you underrating Getzlaf, but also Buffalo's two best forwards.

Anyways, this is Ryan Getzlaf in a bad year:



Don't tell me you think Gaustad is capable of those plays on a game-to-game basis... It doesn't work the way you think. Artyukhin, Calder, Beleskey, Hagman... Those are just bottom six forwards on top of my head that has been tried with Getzlaf and Perry in recent years, it didn't help them suddenly become PPG players.

Also, how do you explain this:

Ducks first line in 07/08:
Chris Kunitz: 82 games, 50 points (21+29).
Corey Perry: 70 games, 54 points (29+25).
Ryan Getzlaf: 77 games, 82 points (24+58).

Ducks first line in 10/11:
Bobby Ryan: 82 games, 71 points (34+37).
Corey Perry: 82 games, 98 points (50+48).
Ryan Getzlaf: 67 games, 76 points (19+57).

You'd think that Getzlaf PPG rating would benefit even more from playing with a career year Bobby Ryan and a hart throphy winner Corey Perry, compared to a 50 point winger (Kunitz) and a pre-breakthrough Corey Perry. Linemates doesn't factor in on production nearly as much as you think it does.


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09-20-2012, 04:38 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by sabrescupbound View Post
I wouldn't take 3 Getzlafs for 1 Malkin, Crosby, or Ovechkin. And yes, if you put Paul freakin Gausted between Perry and Ryan, he would look like a totally different player. Much as if you put Getzlaf between Leino and Gerbe, he would look like a totally different player to. Getz would score his 10-20 goals but his assists would drop to nothing. You could put the other guys mentioned with anyone and they'd still get 60-70 points.

Get'z is a good center, don't get me wrong. But I just don't think he's an end all be all center that a lot of people make him out to be. Would I like him on the Sabres, yeah. Would he be as produtive? Maybe, between Vanek and Pommers, I could see him racking up some assists. But I wouldn't give a guy who I think is going to be a 60-70 point player with mediocre line mates.

The point is Get'z plays with great winger's, who have good chemistry. He comes to Buffalo, I see him scoring 15 goals and getting around 30-40 assists. If a trade was to ever happen, I would just be very careful who I gave away. Fan's would be pi**ed seeing Ennis between Ryan and Perry getting 80 or 90 points and Getz getting 50 in Buffalo
Firstly, it's obvious from your post that you've never seen Getzlaf play. Because if you had you would realize than until Perry's MVP season, it was Getzlaf that carried that line and they went as he did.

Secondly, you can't just throw anyone between Ryan and Perry (or other equivalent wingers) and expect their production to magically jump to first line levels. You're overrating the effects playing with different linemates has on a players numbers. A grinder like Gaustad is not going to put up huge numbers no matter where he is playing. And if you switch Getzlaf and Ennis, their respective numbers would not switch, the NHL is not a video game.

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09-20-2012, 04:48 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrescupbound View Post
I wouldn't take 3 Getzlafs for 1 Malkin, Crosby, or Ovechkin. And yes, if you put Paul freakin Gausted between Perry and Ryan, he would look like a totally different player. Much as if you put Getzlaf between Leino and Gerbe, he would look like a totally different player to. Getz would score his 10-20 goals but his assists would drop to nothing. You could put the other guys mentioned with anyone and they'd still get 60-70 points.

Get'z is a good center, don't get me wrong. But I just don't think he's an end all be all center that a lot of people make him out to be. Would I like him on the Sabres, yeah. Would he be as produtive? Maybe, between Vanek and Pommers, I could see him racking up some assists. But I wouldn't give a guy who I think is going to be a 60-70 point player with mediocre line mates.

The point is Get'z plays with great winger's, who have good chemistry. He comes to Buffalo, I see him scoring 15 goals and getting around 30-40 assists. If a trade was to ever happen, I would just be very careful who I gave away. Fan's would be pi**ed seeing Ennis between Ryan and Perry getting 80 or 90 points and Getz getting 50 in Buffalo
You can use your opinion as an argument all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that Ryan Getzlaf is 1 of only 15 players in the entire league who has averaged over a PPG for the past 5 seasons combined. (That even includes his disappointing season) You don't just get thrown between 2 great players and become a PPG player on a consistent basis the way Getzlaf has done without being an elite talent. It doesn't work that way. If it did, you would see many more players doing it. Based on the statistics, your argument holds no weight, because even many of the best players in the league don't even post a PPG on a regular basis despite playing with top line talent each and every season. Using your argument, since Malkin is better than 3 Getzlaf's, there is no way his line mates shouldn't do what Getzlaf does each year, right? I mean, they are playing with someone that's so good that he is worth more than 3 Getzlaf's so it should be a no brainer that those line mates should be posting a PPG. Right? Care to point out which of his line mates have done that? Then, care to point our which ones have done that on a consistent basis, year in and year out? How about Crosby's line mates? Care to point out the ones that did that with him?

Sorry...it just doesn't work the way you think it does...

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09-21-2012, 11:34 AM
  #50
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Not trading Grigorenko for a 27 year old impending UFA.And the whole well Anaheim could have taken him but didn't act is funny, because Anaheim SHOULD have taken Grigorenko, instead of reach on a prospect not nearly as good.

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