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Edmonton rejects Oiler [Arena] bid for more taxpayer dollars

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Old
09-19-2012, 06:06 PM
  #76
danaluvsthekings
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The Oilers have until 2014 when the lease on Rexall expires. At that point, they will likely enter a year-by-year lease with Northlands. If significant progress (As in, breaking ground) hasn't occurred by then the Oilers will be faced with the reality that they are just not sustainable in the current NHL market at Rexall. If the deal falls through, Katz cannot guarantee the Oilers in Edmonton long term.

The proposed idea needs to be approved before staged construction can begin. Once the financials are in order, then the arena can be built. The surrounding district will be built as it is developed from private investments.
Obviously, I understand why he wants everything approved now, but again, why does it have to be? Staples Center was approved and built and then they went back to get LA Live approved years later. Now they've been going back and trying to get approval for a football stadium. Unless I'm missing something Katz has the money to get the arena built using no public dollars. I'm guessing Oilers fans and people in Edmonton in general are a bit sick of years of hearing we need a new arena. Building the arena first with private dollars would probably go a long way in getting public support for the rest of what Katz wants to do.

Seeing as it's already almost October of 2012, I'd say there's no chance of a building ready by 2014. It took them 18 months to complete Staples Center with crews working 3 shifts a day, which would significantly drive up construction costs for any arena. Not picking on the city or anything, especially since I haven't lived in a cold climate, but how much outdoor construction can be done in Edmonton in winter at a reasonable cost? Don't you need a special concrete blend and to insulate it once it's poured and things like that? I'd imagine those things would drive up construction costs as well.

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09-19-2012, 06:10 PM
  #77
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Or that it`s true but the city and Katz don`t want it scrutinized by the media and public. Only time will tell, but my gut feeling is that he wants his cake for almost free, and wants to be able to eat it too.
I'd love to see the basis for this conspiracy theory of yours.

But if all you can come up with is name calling and accusations with no basis in reality then you fit right in. With the people who are opposed to this development, it's all about ignoring the facts and the real situation and instead cling to these erroneous accusations lambasting the arena deal. Things like "He wants to pay no tax", or "He wants to gouge more money from Edmonton", or "He wants to eat his cake too", or "He is holding a gun to our heads" are such primitive instinctual reactions from people who couldn't even be bothered to fully understand the arena agreement and come to a logical conclusion about it based on the facts. Instead it's just grabbing one piece of information, taking it completely out of context, and then foam at the mouth while you develop this absurd erroneous comprehension of the whole deal.

It's especially true to see the lengths that some of these people will go to just to see the arena plan fail. I look directly at those council members with vested interest in Northlands as the sole suspects for the latest leak that was twisted and painted Katz in a bad light. The sooner Edmonton gets rid of Northlands and their demands for a $250M renovation of Rexall the better.

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09-19-2012, 06:24 PM
  #78
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I'd love to see the basis for this conspiracy theory of yours.

But if all you can come up with is name calling and accusations with no basis in reality then you fit right in. With the people who are opposed to this development, it's all about ignoring the facts and the real situation and instead cling to these erroneous accusations lambasting the arena deal. Things like "He wants to pay no tax", or "He wants to gouge more money from Edmonton", or "He wants to eat his cake too", or "He is holding a gun to our heads" are such primitive instinctual reactions from people who couldn't even be bothered to fully understand the arena agreement and come to a logical conclusion about it based on the facts. Instead it's just grabbing one piece of information, taking it completely out of context, and then foam at the mouth while you develop this absurd erroneous comprehension of the whole deal.

It's especially true to see the lengths that some of these people will go to just to see the arena plan fail. I look directly at those council members with vested interest in Northlands as the sole suspects for the latest leak that was twisted and painted Katz in a bad light. The sooner Edmonton gets rid of Northlands and their demands for a $250M renovation of Rexall the better.
A conspiracy theory?

I"m basing my info off of an EDMONTON CITY COUNCILLOR, not people off of this board . Who knows who is lying and who is telling the truth. Sounds like you get real offended when people voice their opinions about this sham of a deal. And I don't know about you, but I have property in the city and ACTUALLY PAY TAXES, so that gives me a right to voice my opinion on what I think about this lop-sided funding model.

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09-19-2012, 06:32 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by danaluvsthekings View Post
Obviously, I understand why he wants everything approved now, but again, why does it have to be? Staples Center was approved and built and then they went back to get LA Live approved years later. Now they've been going back and trying to get approval for a football stadium. Unless I'm missing something Katz has the money to get the arena built using no public dollars. I'm guessing Oilers fans and people in Edmonton in general are a bit sick of years of hearing we need a new arena. Building the arena first with private dollars would probably go a long way in getting public support for the rest of what Katz wants to do.

Seeing as it's already almost October of 2012, I'd say there's no chance of a building ready by 2014. It took them 18 months to complete Staples Center with crews working 3 shifts a day, which would significantly drive up construction costs for any arena. Not picking on the city or anything, especially since I haven't lived in a cold climate, but how much outdoor construction can be done in Edmonton in winter at a reasonable cost? Don't you need a special concrete blend and to insulate it once it's poured and things like that? I'd imagine those things would drive up construction costs as well.
Right, so I'll go ahead and assume you understand the economic and population difference between Edmonton and a city like LA.

I'll point you to kinda of get caught up to speed with the history of Edmonton
History of Corporate Edmonton

When Katz bought this team he announced he was going to build a brand new arena and contribute $100M to that arena. There are the private funds.

During the initial research into feasibility they looked at many other cities who bought into the idea of an arena being built downtown to "revitalize" their cores. Or at least help spur development around the arena. What was discovered, however, was that almost all arenas built downtown failed to spur any development and arenas themselves never really provided much benefit to the surrounding areas.

With this in mind, a new plan was drawn up that saw the proposed arena site moved from Cracktown Avenue (east downtown) to a centralized location bordering the north end of downtown (Edmonton's downtown is elongated). It was concluded that in order for an arena to truly work as a catalyst in economic revitalization that it must be supported by much more than just an arena. The arena district was proposed to make the project support the revitalization as a whole with added development to ensure that this project doesn't leave the arena area a craphole like it has in so many cities.

This is why they added many community additions such as the community rink, the winter gardens, and real estate surrounding the arena owned by Katz to develop into commercial developments that compliment the arena and arena district.

This was all done in an effort to improve Edmonton. These accusations of being a rich ******** who just wants to screw Edmontonians over is incredibly false, seeing how he is an Edmontonian himself, was a life long Oiler fan and now owns the Oilers (He's such a big fan that Rexall's brand was designed with Oiler colors). If this was the case, he'd have propped up a subpar arena worth ~$150M with no care as to the long term benefits or detriments to the area.

Construction costs will continue to get higher. Edmonton recently built an overpass that was supposed to cost $130M, but ended up costing $260M. Nobody is up in arms about that gaff. But $7M? Burn Katz to a stake!

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Old
09-19-2012, 06:44 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
When Katz bought this team he announced he was going to build a brand new arena and contribute $100M to that arena. There are the private funds.
So he's asking for a $350M handout?

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09-19-2012, 07:11 PM
  #81
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Nope. The proposed $450M includes the arena district, as the $100M from Katz is earmarked in both the building itself and the arena district.

Sorry but you are very much wrong. There was a whole round of these talks where first he said he'd put money into the arena but he then said it was only for the district and into the real estate developments going around and he wouldnt pay anything into the arena. When he was called on the tricky wordplay he was using to try and seem like he was promising one thing but in reality only something less he agreed to put $100 million into each.

He's investing money in the real estate surrounding the building, good on him but that's a fully commercial venture where he should make money and if not then it was a bad risk and he shouldnt have gotten into it. He has also committed to paying $5.5 million for 35 years as his investment in the arena as his $100 million investment into the arena.

The idea for the arena district is very much like what was built in LA and no it wont be happening all at the same time. The arena will go up first followed by whatever developments come.

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09-19-2012, 07:36 PM
  #82
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Some people from Edmonton just like to make this a topic of conversation for some reason (to make them feel better about themselves or whatever).
Like to make what in particular a topic of conversation? I don't think the poster I was quoting is from Edmonton.

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09-19-2012, 08:11 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
When Katz bought this team he announced he was going to build a brand new arena and contribute $100M to that arena. There are the private funds.
And if he had done as he initially promised, people would be happy. He pulled a classic bait-n-switch, from a simple arena to a major real-estate development.

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This was all done in an effort to improve Edmonton.
And wants it so badly, that he's threatening to move the Oilers if he can't "improve Edmonton".

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
These accusations of being a rich ******** who just wants to screw Edmontonians over is incredibly false, seeing how he is an Edmontonian himself, was a life long Oiler fan and now owns the Oilers (He's such a big fan that Rexall's brand was designed with Oiler colors). If this was the case, he'd have propped up a subpar arena worth ~$150M with no care as to the long term benefits or detriments to the area.
If he had done exactly that, we wouldn't be arguing here today. Given the bait-n-switch from his original proposal, is it any wonder Edmontonians don't trust him?

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09-19-2012, 10:50 PM
  #84
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And if he had done as he initially promised, people would be happy. He pulled a classic bait-n-switch, from a simple arena to a major real-estate development.

And wants it so badly, that he's threatening to move the Oilers if he can't "improve Edmonton".

If he had done exactly that, we wouldn't be arguing here today. Given the bait-n-switch from his original proposal, is it any wonder Edmontonians don't trust him?
And yet with all the facts I've presented within this thread, you've chosen to ignore them all and continue with your rabble.

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09-19-2012, 10:54 PM
  #85
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And yet with all the facts I've presented within this thread, you've chosen to ignore them all and continue with your rabble.
TBH, I have seen very few facts in your posts. The one post where it did appear you posted facts, you also appear to have deleted as soon as someone showed your facts were wrong.

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09-19-2012, 10:55 PM
  #86
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Makes ya wonder, lol



New rink in Quebec for 360 million for 18,000 seats? then they need to spend 40 million to decontaminate the land so 400 million for rink........a betting man would bet cost overruns i know ...


Never thought i see a day it was cheaper to build in Quebec..lol


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09-19-2012, 11:14 PM
  #87
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Lifelong Edmontonian here...
This whole mess could be easily solved if Mr. Katz would allow the use of PSL's, whereby private citizens would buy the rights to their seat for X years by way of a lump-sum payment up front. This method has been used countless time by NFL owners, & while I think it's repugnant, it does generate the necessary capital that would be needed to build, or partially build, an arena/stadium.
However, Mr. Katz has declined to entertain this option, because it would mean taking away future revenues from his pocket, & why use your own money when someone else's will do?

Oh, & you might want to think about this tidbit... Katz ain't as rich as he makes himself out to be. Back in 2009, CIT Financial declared bankruptcy - guess who they helped purchase a local hockey team with a $200M loan? You may have money, but you're always someone's *****.

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09-19-2012, 11:48 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by danaluvsthekings View Post
Obviously, I understand why he wants everything approved now, but again, why does it have to be? Staples Center was approved and built and then they went back to get LA Live approved years later. Now they've been going back and trying to get approval for a football stadium. Unless I'm missing something Katz has the money to get the arena built using no public dollars. I'm guessing Oilers fans and people in Edmonton in general are a bit sick of years of hearing we need a new arena. Building the arena first with private dollars would probably go a long way in getting public support for the rest of what Katz wants to do.
He could still build it with his money and get no public support for the additional projects. I've seen the responses in LA in that the public support for the AEG project has always been strong. In Edmonton, any project always draws out the whiners and complainers who can bring any project to a halt. The Council member who posted the claims has long been hostile to any new arena given that he is a shareholder in Northlands (along with the fact that Rexall Place is in his riding). Plus, Tony's a well know media ******** in the city. Stick a mike in his face and he'll give you what you want.

This can easily be seen in two other major development projects here in the city. The LRT has seen more progress during the recent administration than in the last 30 years. It took well over a decade to build the south extension from the University (a poor southern terminus). Now, the south line will have a new north line coming in and plans for service to Millwoods and to WEM. All of this should've happened long ago, but it has been blocked by the likes of Tony who think that such a plan is a waste.

Same goes with the old downtown airport that is being shut down. That should've happened years ago if not for the same whinny folk that now oppose the new arena. The idea of having urban development is what's badly needed in that part of the city. Tony never wanted that, but was more than eager to have 737's come roaring in over homes because his business buddies needed it.

We can build the arena now, but any change in city council (especially with Tony at the helm) would certainly try to get in the way of it. This is Edmonton, and the ideas of Ottawa or Winnipeg don't work here since we now know the problems that they face now and in the future are not what people want to face.

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Seeing as it's already almost October of 2012, I'd say there's no chance of a building ready by 2014. It took them 18 months to complete Staples Center with crews working 3 shifts a day, which would significantly drive up construction costs for any arena. Not picking on the city or anything, especially since I haven't lived in a cold climate, but how much outdoor construction can be done in Edmonton in winter at a reasonable cost? Don't you need a special concrete blend and to insulate it once it's poured and things like that? I'd imagine those things would drive up construction costs as well.
Not much. Having a climate like LAs can help construction move along smoothly and quickly. Nothing gets built in Edmonton during the winter unless you had the one we just had. Even then, getting work done would still be minimal. One would also have to compete with the existing construction situation in Alberta and a scarcity of skilled workers.

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09-19-2012, 11:51 PM
  #89
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Makes ya wonder, lol



New rink in Quebec for 360 million for 18,000 seats? then they need to spend 40 million to decontaminate the land so 400 million for rink........a betting man would bet cost overruns i know ...


Never thought i see a day it was cheaper to build in Quebec..lol
Yet we know how Quebec works, and expect the costs for their new Arena to go up as well.

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09-20-2012, 12:01 AM
  #90
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Smackdaddy are you on Katz payroll or something? You deserve a raise bud, you've been spewing Katz propaganda all day!

As a born and raised Edmontonian, and also as someone who loves the Oilers, it's really time for Katz to put up or shut up. The trail of broken promises has absolutely ruined his reputation in the city (suffice to say he's lucky to have any reputation at all after how terrible his hockey team has been). I appreciate Katz for coming in and buying the team and all the hype that went along with it but since he actually purchased the team, he sure hasn't done a hell of a lot other than threaten Oilers fans every chance he gets. It's like Pocklington v2.0 and that is the last thing Oilers fans need.

In all I feel like this negotiation process is as ridiculous as the labour dispute going on with the NHL and the NHLPA right now (I know they are both completely seperate things, but regardless, both disputes could be resolved rather easily). Katz has to put in more money or the deal won't get done, AND he has to stop asking for more from us. If anybody should be asking for more it should be the taxpayers of the city of Edmonton. You didn't hear us whine and complain about the deal at all until Katz went overboard with his demands. Now he just looks like a bully, and above all, a total cheapass.

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09-20-2012, 12:01 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Lummer Hummer View Post
Lifelong Edmontonian here...
This whole mess could be easily solved if Mr. Katz would allow the use of PSL's, whereby private citizens would buy the rights to their seat for X years by way of a lump-sum payment up front. This method has been used countless time by NFL owners, & while I think it's repugnant, it does generate the necessary capital that would be needed to build, or partially build, an arena/stadium.
However, Mr. Katz has declined to entertain this option, because it would mean taking away future revenues from his pocket, & why use your own money when someone else's will do?
PSL would still be the same thing based on your logic. Given that its not really followed outside of the NFL, that tells enough about how useless PSLs are.

Oh, & you might want to think about this tidbit... Katz ain't as rich as he makes himself out to be. Back in 2009, CIT Financial declared bankruptcy - guess who they helped purchase a local hockey team with a $200M loan? You may have money, but you're always someone's *****.[/QUOTE]

He recently sold one of his business for $920 Million, you would be wrong.

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09-20-2012, 12:07 AM
  #92
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Too tired to read this thread. But this thing is going to get done. Everybody knows it. Do you think the city of Edmonton will play around with the possiblilty of letting the Oil leave? Never. Both the owner and the city want this to work out so unless something very unfortunate for both sides happens... I mean the Lions of the CFL got a half billion dollar roof and big screen from a government and owner much less affluent than this situation. Posturing.

Shy

btw my appologize if I'm ignrorant of the inner working of the situation and am found to be way off. But this situation seems too obvious. Like I said too tired to read, barely enough energy to typ...*zzzzzz*

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09-20-2012, 12:10 AM
  #93
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Smackdaddy are you on Katz payroll or something? You deserve a raise bud, you've been spewing Katz propaganda all day!
No. He just has a better grasp of the facts than most on this board.

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As a born and raised Edmontonian, and also as someone who loves the Oilers, it's really time for Katz to put up or shut up. The trail of broken promises has absolutely ruined his reputation in the city (suffice to say he's lucky to have any reputation at all after how terrible his hockey team has been). I appreciate Katz for coming in and buying the team and all the hype that went along with it but since he actually purchased the team, he sure hasn't done a hell of a lot other than threaten Oilers fans every chance he gets. It's like Pocklington v2.0 and that is the last thing Oilers fans need.
Or is it because you are paranoid of billionaires who doesn't do what you tell him to do.

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In all I feel like this negotiation process is as ridiculous as the labour dispute going on with the NHL and the NHLPA right now (I know they are both completely seperate things, but regardless, both disputes could be resolved rather easily). Katz has to put in more money or the deal won't get done, AND he has to stop asking for more from us. If anybody should be asking for more it should be the taxpayers of the city of Edmonton. You didn't hear us whine and complain about the deal at all until Katz went overboard with his demands. Now he just looks like a bully, and above all, a total cheapass.
Yet he gave you a great proposal for the city and you still have to *****. Its because of people like you he doesn't have to answer.

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09-20-2012, 12:14 AM
  #94
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Too tired to read this thread. But this thing is going to get done. Everybody knows it. Do you think the city of Edmonton will play around with the possiblilty of letting the Oil leave? Never. Both the owner and the city want this to work out so unless something very unfortunate for both sides happens... I mean the Lions of the CFL got a half billion dollar roof and big screen from a government and owner much less affluent than this situation. Posturing.

Shy

btw my appologize if I'm ignrorant of the inner working of the situation and am found to be way off. But this situation seems too obvious. Like I said too tired to read, barely enough energy to typ...*zzzzzz*
The funny things is that Lions (and Vancouver) could've gotten an outdoor stadium fully funded by Greg Kerfoot that would be expanded to meet the Lions needs.

Too bad the NIMBY's have basically killed it.

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09-20-2012, 12:26 AM
  #95
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No. He just has a better grasp of the facts than most on this board.



Or is it because you are paranoid of billionaires who doesn't do what you tell him to do.



Yet he gave you a great proposal for the city and you still have to *****. Its because of people like you he doesn't have to answer.

You and smackdaddy seem to be in the minority here bud, so either everyone else is missing something, or you guys are the ones who are out to lunch. I'm guessing it's the latter.

Paranoid of a Katz, the guy that doesn't want aspects of the deal made public, no never! The same guy who promised $100 million to the UofA and has totally renagged on that promise? I wouldn't call it being paranoid, I would just call it learning from experience.

Great proposal for the city? If it was soooooo great you'd think Edmontonians would be jumping at the chance to bring some life to our downtown. I WANT this to happen, I want the Oilers to stay in Edmonton, I want to love the offer Katz has put before us. The truth is the deal as it stands right now sucks for the taxpayers of Edmonton and if Katz has his way, will only get worse. If he recently sold a company for $920 million, what is the point of nickle and diming people who could potentially worship you?!? All he is doing is turning this worship into hatred, and it will only get worse if he keeps up with his behind the scenes bargaining and ridiculous demands.

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09-20-2012, 12:32 AM
  #96
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I too want to see a new arena built in Edmonton; the fans and the city deserve it. However, I don't want to see it built at any cost. Why does this thing have to be a billionaire legacy kind of arena project? To play "keeping up with the Jones's"? To prove that this city is competitive? You can do that with an arena of moderate grandure and with a funding plan that doesn't **** over the taxpayers like this one is. I for one am not one of the people willing to bend over and take it at any cost just to kiss a greedy billionair's ass. I'm sick of this guy taking Edmonton and it's citizens for a bunch of brain-dead morons.

As the deal currently stands, just say no to Katz. Re-tool it to make most of the liability on his shoulders, and I'll jump for joy.


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09-20-2012, 01:04 AM
  #97
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There is no good or justifiable reason whatsoever for someone like Katz to NOT want deal details made public. If that's the case, it's a huge red flag.

This sounds more and more like the situation in Arizona.

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09-20-2012, 01:07 AM
  #98
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Paranoid of a Katz, the guy that doesn't want aspects of the deal made public, no never! The same guy who promised $100 million to the UofA and has totally renagged on that promise? I wouldn't call it being paranoid, I would just call it learning from experience.
Example of the 100m Donation to the U of A? If what you said was true, we would have known about it already.

As for the arena deal. The facts are already out there, you would be just as blind not to pay attention.

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Originally Posted by Eriktion View Post
Great proposal for the city? If it was soooooo great you'd think Edmontonians would be jumping at the chance to bring some life to our downtown. I WANT this to happen, I want the Oilers to stay in Edmonton, I want to love the offer Katz has put before us. The truth is the deal as it stands right now sucks for the taxpayers of Edmonton and if Katz has his way, will only get worse. If he recently sold a company for $920 million, what is the point of nickle and diming people who could potentially worship you?!? All he is doing is turning this worship into hatred, and it will only get worse if he keeps up with his behind the scenes bargaining and ridiculous demands.
He sold a business, yet you have no proof that he personally pocketed his money. You ignore that he still actually has business outside of the Oilers.

No one worships an owner. You must be really dumb to buy into that ****.

As for the hatred, the only one that exists is from people like who tend to think with a matter that's located south of the border. Your aren't that much different from the Harper haters in politics: Hate, but without logic.

If you can't provide any common sense, then don't reply back.


Last edited by Killion: 09-20-2012 at 06:15 PM. Reason: natd...
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09-20-2012, 01:10 AM
  #99
DoyleG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
There is no good or justifiable reason whatsoever for someone like Katz to NOT want deal details made public. If that's the case, it's a huge red flag.

This sounds more and more like the situation in Arizona.
You really think that it would all end with the details being made public? People would ***** about it even if Katz paid all of the money himself. That would make far more people angry.

This is Edmonton, not Arizona.

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09-20-2012, 01:37 AM
  #100
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I'm not sure where I stand all this because we're not privy to enough information about all the specific financial details of the deal.

Northlands is a dump, and absolutely needs to be replaced with a newer arena. Edmonton downtown as it stands right now is also nowhere near as attractive a place as it should be at this stage given the strong economy, and no I don't mean aesthetically. In terms of corporate investment, shopping, restaurants, bars, infrastructure, it's not even close to what it could be. The idea of the downtown arena and district are good ones; they'll bring the biggest unifying cultural element of edmonton to a new area in the heart of the city and revitalize an area that right now is one of the worst in the city.

That said; I don't get why Katz needs the city to fund the building. He's essentially proposing a large real estate venture - yes it benefits the city but it firsts benefits him as a business. Isn't this the way the capital market works? If the city is going to fund the vast majority of the project, then perhaps the Oilers should rent the building as a tenant, and Katz should be included as a minority shareholder to whatever % he pays? I don't know **** all about economics so maybe I'm out to lunch but something like that would mean he'd still make profits off whatever part of the business he owns, right?

The oilers are the heart of the city and under no circumstances should they be allowed to move. But IDK if I see the merit in building a beautiful new arena with taxpayer money and then having 100% of the profit go to Katz, in a situation where he wouldn't even be paying property taxes?

Smackdaddy is absolutely right about Edmonton though; the hesitation to improve has really hurt this city. The LRT, the municipal airport, and now the arena district are definitely things the public itself was hugely resistant of changing, but ultimately its the public that suffers from the cultural stagnation of the city.

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