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Old
09-19-2012, 10:03 PM
  #126
Andy
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Prust on the 2nd line? Oh lord.

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Old
09-19-2012, 10:28 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stasis View Post
Barring injury, and if ppl play to reasonable expectations, that's a line-up I can very much see not only making the playoffs... but actually having a decent shot at doing some damage there. Not sure why most of you are writing the team off this year already. And I know I'm not a Habs fan, but I live in Montreal and I'm very much aware of everything Habs related.
The 2 main problems: Plekanec and Bourque had zero chemistry last year (in fact, it was basically negative chemistry) and there's no guarantee adding Gionta, who barely played last year, to that line will suddenly transform it into the solid scoring unit it needs to be. Basically, I am thinking they need at least 70 goals (over 82 games) from those 3.

If that Plekanec line doesn't click, then it comes down to 1 line of offence since our coach seems hellbent on keeping that 1 line together. And any decent team has the capabilities to shut down one single line.

There's also no top 6 LW alternative to Bourque if he stinks the joint out like he did when he joined the team.

2nd problem: the defence is just too small and will have all kinds of trouble against any team with big forwards. Management clearly is waiting for Tinordi to emerge to rectify the problem in the future, but he's at least a year away.

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Old
09-19-2012, 10:35 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
The 2 main problems: Plekanec and Bourque had zero chemistry last year (in fact, it was basically negative chemistry) and there's no guarantee adding Gionta, who barely played last year, to that line will suddenly transform it into the solid scoring unit it needs to be. Basically, I am thinking they need at least 70 goals (over 82 games) from those 3.

If that Plekanec line doesn't click, then it comes down to 1 line of offence since our coach seems hellbent on keeping that 1 line together. And any decent team has the capabilities to shut down one single line.

There's also no top 6 LW alternative to Bourque if he stinks the joint out like he did when he joined the team.

2nd problem: the defence is just too small and will have all kinds of trouble against any team with big forwards. Management clearly is waiting for Tinordi to emerge to rectify the problem in the future, but he's at least a year away.
That's mostly because they were playing with White though who had no business playing on the 2nd line. Gionta is that constent shooter a player like Bourque needs to play that power game more effectively. I think the number of off nights will decrease by a fair margin for Bourque now that Terrien is in charge too.

Me personnally it's my 3rd line that I like a lot. Gomez-Eller-Armstrong could do some damage as a 2-way 3rd line.

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Old
09-19-2012, 10:39 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
That's great, absolutely no reason to break that up

Just need to find something that will work with Pleks. Gio for sure now it's up to Bourque to get going
What he said.

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Old
09-19-2012, 11:17 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stasis View Post
Barring injury, and if ppl play to reasonable expectations, that's a line-up I can very much see not only making the playoffs... but actually having a decent shot at doing some damage there. Not sure why most of you are writing the team off this year already. And I know I'm not a Habs fan, but I live in Montreal and I'm very much aware of everything Habs related.

Edit: And can we have Prust back? Please?
Nice post. I agree, it's actually a decent lineup. It's a weird mix of like damaged all stars like Gomez and Kaberle and Markov who are looking to redeem themselves, dependable veterans like Gorges, Plekanec, Cole, Gionta, etc lots of bottom-six toughness and some exciting corner stone young players. It's a really likeable team and I was looking forward to watching em work their ***** off this year under Therrien and make the playoffs and surprise everyone... if we ever get a season

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Old
09-20-2012, 09:42 AM
  #131
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Dominic Moore is still unsigned...
sign him just for that second rounder you're gonna get for him at the deadline

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Old
09-20-2012, 09:56 AM
  #132
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Just thought about the Four lines we'd put out, if there Is a season...
Pleks-Gionta-Bourque
Cole-Descharny-Pacioretty
Prust-White-Armstrong
Eller-?? ??
I really can't make four decent lines here, and i over Ten years of drafting under Timmons, wouldnt you think we'd have a much better roster than this?? Half our foward will probably be players we traded for or got via free agency. Incredible how TT gets such accolades from Montreal fans. I guess finishing last in your conference isnt Proof of how poorly this man has done as scouting director.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jee View Post
I like the Moen - Prust - Armstrong line.

At this stage, he's just trying things anyway... don't worry.
We continue to juggle our Third and Fourth lines over the years, too bad our weakess is the top two lines, especially the second, I score more than this roster on a Saturday night.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 09-20-2012 at 12:22 PM. Reason: merge
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Old
09-20-2012, 10:09 AM
  #133
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I think there is a lot of thinking that went into Therien's lineup. 1st line clicked so keep rolling with what works. 2nd line works, anybody who has watched the Habs will say that Eller hasn't looked out of place playing with Plekanec, Bourque looked downright awful last year. That's not because of White, that's because he stunk. Eller is going to be a beast on the forecheck, he has the wheels and the size to be effective in a role that was lost in Martin's system. There is no one else in the system who can add that element. That is why I am thoroughly perplexed that anyone would suggest that Desharnais would make a better winger than Eller. How? I love seeing Gallagher in the 12 man line-up. A full season in the NHL, with some 2nd PP duty should groom him to replace Gionta in a season or two. This gives the Habs the ability to match the Bruins, Sabres, or Flyers with a potential 3rd scoring line, with either Gomez or Bourque as wingers. Geoffrion-Leblanc, with either Bournival (a much needed faceoff guy) or Dumont adds solid depth. Our checking line is tough enough to match the Rags, Bruins, or Senators grinders and scrappers. It's been a long time coming. The Habs are going to be a formidable opponent. The Gainey ideal of speed being the main criteria for success has been replaced to reflect the reality of a balance of skill and size which is necessary to win in today's NHL.

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Old
09-20-2012, 10:34 AM
  #134
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Pacioretty-Plekanec-Desharnais
Bourque-Eller-Cole
Moen-Gomez-Gionta
Prust-White-Armstrong

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Old
09-20-2012, 11:34 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
Pacioretty-Plekanec-Desharnais
Bourque-Eller-Cole
Moen-Gomez-Gionta
Prust-White-Armstrong
I guess you missed M Therrien yesterday saying " The Desharnais trio will NOT be split up ".... ? And aslo you missed where he said his captain Gionta will be a BIG part of the second line ?

You should retry those lines with what he stated.

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09-20-2012, 11:48 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
How about these reasons:

- Rene Bourque may benefit from playing with Desharnais and Cole/Pacioretty and return to 25+ goal form
- Lars Eller may play well on wing under the mentoring of Pacioretty/Cole on the other side.
-You're not relying anymore on one single line to produce.
-You have a better use of the players in the lineup, to give you a more balanced team.

I cant understand how you can keep the Pacioretty-Desharnais-Cole line intact while you're left with only Gionta (and there is some question marks about his form) to play with Plekanec.
Even in shape, Bourque is not a good fit on that line in such a scenario, since they will have to face the best players of the opposition, and he's simply not good enough to do so.

Still, Therrien can play around with the D, having Subban and Markov on different lines will be a luxury, but in the current situation league-wise, how the matchups are done, and how we are weak on wingers, its just not a good idea.

You split them up, you end up with a relatively balanced team, with at least 2 more than adequate players in each of the first 3 lines.

You use Plekanec and Pacioretty, Desharnais and Cole, Eller and Bourque together. You can play with Gionta, Moen, Leblanc and Armstrong accordingly to their style to complete the Top-9, and you can have lines that clearly have a purpose and the means to do so without having any liability in the lineup.

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Old
09-20-2012, 01:03 PM
  #137
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So some of you seriously want Gomez in the top 9 now? Why?

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Old
09-20-2012, 01:16 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
I think there is a lot of thinking that went into Therien's lineup. 1st line clicked so keep rolling with what works. 2nd line works, anybody who has watched the Habs will say that Eller hasn't looked out of place playing with Plekanec, Bourque looked downright awful last year. That's not because of White, that's because he stunk. Eller is going to be a beast on the forecheck, he has the wheels and the size to be effective in a role that was lost in Martin's system. There is no one else in the system who can add that element. That is why I am thoroughly perplexed that anyone would suggest that Desharnais would make a better winger than Eller. How? I love seeing Gallagher in the 12 man line-up. A full season in the NHL, with some 2nd PP duty should groom him to replace Gionta in a season or two. This gives the Habs the ability to match the Bruins, Sabres, or Flyers with a potential 3rd scoring line, with either Gomez or Bourque as wingers. Geoffrion-Leblanc, with either Bournival (a much needed faceoff guy) or Dumont adds solid depth. Our checking line is tough enough to match the Rags, Bruins, or Senators grinders and scrappers. It's been a long time coming. The Habs are going to be a formidable opponent. The Gainey ideal of speed being the main criteria for success has been replaced to reflect the reality of a balance of skill and size which is necessary to win in today's NHL.
Finally someone who got it !

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Old
09-20-2012, 01:20 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryannshabs View Post
Just thought about the Four lines we'd put out, if there Is a season...
Pleks-Gionta-Bourque
Cole-Descharny-Pacioretty
Prust-White-Armstrong
Eller-?? ??
I really can't make four decent lines here, and i over Ten years of drafting under Timmons, wouldnt you think we'd have a much better roster than this?? Half our foward will probably be players we traded for or got via free agency. Incredible how TT gets such accolades from Montreal fans. I guess finishing last in your conference isnt Proof of how poorly this man has done as scouting director.



We continue to juggle our Third and Fourth lines over the years, too bad our weakess is the top two lines, especially the second, I score more than this roster on a Saturday night.

Wow you bring up Timmins in at least half your posts. It's been proven that he is one of the best scouts. So you are either trolling or plain ignorant.
Another poster to the ignore list. jeez. This board has really dropped in quality over the years.

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Old
09-20-2012, 01:25 PM
  #140
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Finally someone who got it !
Yes, but i'd prefer a big two way center capable of puttin down points.

Cole, Patches, Bourque, Prust, Armstrong, White, Moen, and even Gionta all have that kind of presence on the forecheck.

Now who's the big dynamic 2 way center with incredible talent we have ? Errrr that's what I tought.

Desharnais look's like a kid in a candy store when he's in the D-zone, he doesnt know where to put his head. Take off responsabilities from him. +He's already developped and confident, he'll pick up any challenge and just blow it away.

We have what we needed since Damphousse in Eller and we want to put him on the wing.

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Old
09-20-2012, 01:33 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
So some of you seriously want Gomez in the top 9 now? Why?
Career year under Therrien

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Old
09-20-2012, 02:18 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Yes, but i'd prefer a big two way center capable of puttin down points.

Cole, Patches, Bourque, Prust, Armstrong, White, Moen, and even Gionta all have that kind of presence on the forecheck.

Now who's the big dynamic 2 way center with incredible talent we have ? Errrr that's what I tought.

Desharnais look's like a kid in a candy store when he's in the D-zone, he doesnt know where to put his head. Take off responsabilities from him. +He's already developped and confident, he'll pick up any challenge and just blow it away.

We have what we needed since Damphousse in Eller and we want to put him on the wing.
I like Eller at centre, I like Eller on the wing. I think it's important he becomes effective in any role he's given. The Desharnais argument is weak, he is a terrific passer, his vision makes him an offensive threat, you can't be as effective in distributing the puck off the wing, plain and simple, due to space and angles. Defensively he has some weakness, but given the roster the Habs are putting forward, he is being asked to provide offense with the team's best offensive wingers.
In putting Eller on the wing of a second line, he is getting increased responsibility, not decreased. This is the line that will draw the other team's best. He can learn from playing with Plekanec. In the meantime he can use his skills to help the team. Putting Prust, Moen, Armstrong in this role does not have the same effect, Eller is the only guy on the roster outside of the 1st line, who has the speed to burn, as he used effectively against the Bruins in his first playoff appearance, which complements Plekanec. This move should get him to the 40-50 point plateau sooner rather than later.
Prust and White as 3rd and 4th line centers gives size and strength to the lineup, and both are sound defensively, and as capable if not better than Eller in the circle. I can see situations where Eller can be useful as a 3rd line centre, for instance a line of him, Moen, Gallagher would be a solid 3rd line, capable of good things in both ends of the rink. If you remember how Therien used Staal, he wasn't strictly a checking line centre, he played some top 6 wing, and it doesn't seem to have effected his development. Unless a top 6 winger is obtained, who can be a solid defensive presence as well (please don't say Bourque), I can see Eller being asked to display his versatility. That's not a bad thing.

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Old
09-20-2012, 02:46 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Yes, but i'd prefer a big two way center capable of puttin down points.

Cole, Patches, Bourque, Prust, Armstrong, White, Moen, and even Gionta all have that kind of presence on the forecheck.

Now who's the big dynamic 2 way center with incredible talent we have ? Errrr that's what I tought.

Desharnais look's like a kid in a candy store when he's in the D-zone, he doesnt know where to put his head. Take off responsabilities from him. +He's already developped and confident, he'll pick up any challenge and just blow it away.

We have what we needed since Damphousse in Eller and we want to put him on the wing.

IF there is a season , why not play Eller on tyhe 2nd line LW WHILE Bourque is recuperating from his injury ? Voyageur explained very well why Eller is a better option on a wing than DD. I won'ty add more to that.

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09-20-2012, 11:05 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
I like Eller at centre, I like Eller on the wing. I think it's important he becomes effective in any role he's given. The Desharnais argument is weak, he is a terrific passer, his vision makes him an offensive threat, you can't be as effective in distributing the puck off the wing, plain and simple, due to space and angles. Defensively he has some weakness, but given the roster the Habs are putting forward, he is being asked to provide offense with the team's best offensive wingers.
In putting Eller on the wing of a second line, he is getting increased responsibility, not decreased. This is the line that will draw the other team's best. He can learn from playing with Plekanec. In the meantime he can use his skills to help the team. Putting Prust, Moen, Armstrong in this role does not have the same effect, Eller is the only guy on the roster outside of the 1st line, who has the speed to burn, as he used effectively against the Bruins in his first playoff appearance, which complements Plekanec. This move should get him to the 40-50 point plateau sooner rather than later.
Prust and White as 3rd and 4th line centers gives size and strength to the lineup, and both are sound defensively, and as capable if not better than Eller in the circle. I can see situations where Eller can be useful as a 3rd line centre, for instance a line of him, Moen, Gallagher would be a solid 3rd line, capable of good things in both ends of the rink. If you remember how Therien used Staal, he wasn't strictly a checking line centre, he played some top 6 wing, and it doesn't seem to have effected his development. Unless a top 6 winger is obtained, who can be a solid defensive presence as well (please don't say Bourque), I can see Eller being asked to display his versatility. That's not a bad thing.
You go tell that to St-Louis, will you?
He finished top 10 in passing since what 2003?
He's a winger.

They really have similar skillset. St-Louis has a heavier shot tough.

It's really not a knock on DD I just think he'd do just as good on the wing.. (Didnt he play wing in his first season ? I don't remember.)

With Eller, Galchenyuk, Plekanec and Leblanc all able to play in 1 year I think it would be a great fit to have DD on the wing.

I don't want to trade any of those, they're perfectly fitted for this. All hard workers, High IQ, 2way(except for dd.) centers with some size (except DD.)

Anyway we'd have DD in case of injury or if Eller doesnt produce. But anyway, I know DD will produce on the wing, maybe even more than down the middle.

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Old
09-21-2012, 05:34 AM
  #145
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3 head coaches, same 1st line. What's the point of a new coach? Lol

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09-21-2012, 10:08 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
IF there is a season , why not play Eller on tyhe 2nd line LW WHILE Bourque is recuperating from his injury ? Voyageur explained very well why Eller is a better option on a wing than DD. I won'ty add more to that.
You won't add more to that because there's no real intelligent argument for it. You're throwing your hat in with the guy who just said it's impossible to be a playmaker from the wing.

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09-21-2012, 10:20 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
You go tell that to St-Louis, will you?
He finished top 10 in passing since what 2003?
He's a winger.

They really have similar skillset. St-Louis has a heavier shot tough.

It's really not a knock on DD I just think he'd do just as good on the wing.. (Didnt he play wing in his first season ? I don't remember.)

With Eller, Galchenyuk, Plekanec and Leblanc all able to play in 1 year I think it would be a great fit to have DD on the wing.

I don't want to trade any of those, they're perfectly fitted for this. All hard workers, High IQ, 2way(except for dd.) centers with some size (except DD.)

Anyway we'd have DD in case of injury or if Eller doesnt produce. But anyway, I know DD will produce on the wing, maybe even more than down the middle.
We have enough small wingers, with Gionta, Gallagher, Kristo, Hudon, and these are wingers, shoot first. When Desharnais becomes a perennial 30 goal scorer, like St. Louis, we'll talk. You realize St. Louis gets a good portion of his assists playing on good power plays. Desharnais is not like St. Louis. A comparative skillset to Desharnais's is Ribeiro, except Desharnais has a better off-ice disposition.

Desharnais can not add the element of forechecking that Eller can and has successfully displayed. Gionta is not a forechecker because he can't separate the puck from the man, he is a battler, who wins his fair share of battles, he also scores most of his goals off transition, which doesn't imply him expending his energy on the forecheck.

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09-21-2012, 02:34 PM
  #148
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With Gomez, Gionta and Kaberle, I'm pleasantly hoping for a shortened season to a) bomb once again with a below average lineup 2) shave a year off their contracts and c) pick up another HUGE piece at the draft. One more solid forward prospect and we're good to go in 2-3 years with

Pacioretty
Galchenyuk
Desharnais
Eller
Collberg
Leblanc
Gallagher
Borderline (Bournival, Holland)

Subban
Tinordi
Beaulieu
Ellis

Price

If we could get another power forward, either center or wing, to play on the top 2 lines, that's what you call building through the draft!

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09-21-2012, 09:47 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
We have enough small wingers, with Gionta, Gallagher, Kristo, Hudon, and these are wingers, shoot first. When Desharnais becomes a perennial 30 goal scorer, like St. Louis, we'll talk. You realize St. Louis gets a good portion of his assists playing on good power plays. Desharnais is not like St. Louis. A comparative skillset to Desharnais's is Ribeiro, except Desharnais has a better off-ice disposition.

Desharnais can not add the element of forechecking that Eller can and has successfully displayed. Gionta is not a forechecker because he can't separate the puck from the man, he is a battler, who wins his fair share of battles, he also scores most of his goals off transition, which doesn't imply him expending his energy on the forecheck.
Gionta is not a forechecker ? Whut ?

Might want to read this.

Quote:
Ryan White had the highest forechecking success-rate. White was successful with 76% of his attempts to acquire or remove puck-possession from the opposition in the offensive-zone.

Seven other Canadiens forwards had success-rates at, or above 70% when forechecking in the offensive-zone. Those players include; Brian Gionta (72%), Andrei Kostitsyn (71%), Mathieu Darche (72%), Max Pacioretty (75%), Louis Leblanc (72%), Erik Cole (73%), and Lars Eller (71%).
Also I don't think you know what forecheck is.

http://www.boucherscouting.com/2012/...echeckers.html

Oh and I could go the same way you do: Deshanrais cannot add the element of two-way play down the middle like Eller. He also can't add the size we we're/are/will need down the middle. He's best suited for a winger.

Oh, also, Ribs has a wicked shot, wicked hands and he's on a whole other level when we're talking of skating and reach.

Also why can't DD get his fair share of point on the PP too ? Last year was an incredible bad year for our PP.. It's normal he had low PP points.

Oh and also, you do know that 26.2% of Marty's points come from the pp... While DD had 33%.......

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09-22-2012, 05:12 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Gionta is not a forechecker ? Whut ?

Might want to read this.



Also I don't think you know what forecheck is.

http://www.boucherscouting.com/2012/...echeckers.html

Oh and I could go the same way you do: Deshanrais cannot add the element of two-way play down the middle like Eller. He also can't add the size we we're/are/will need down the middle. He's best suited for a winger.

Oh, also, Ribs has a wicked shot, wicked hands and he's on a whole other level when we're talking of skating and reach.

Also why can't DD get his fair share of point on the PP too ? Last year was an incredible bad year for our PP.. It's normal he had low PP points.

Oh and also, you do know that 26.2% of Marty's points come from the pp... While DD had 33%.......

Those are interesting stats. I don't dispute that Desharnsis could be effective as winger, perhaps more so if he was on Vincent Lecavalier's wing! I think wingers make good passers on teams that employ some form of wing lock like Carbonneau used under Gainey, Kovalev, Kostitsyn, and Tanguay all examples. However on this team I think Desharnais is the only centre who can put up Koivu and Ribeiro numbers as a pivot. I expect wingers under Therien will be given permission to win puck battles, I think if Eller can learn some of Plekanec's techniques he could well become an ideal replacement, as Galchenyuk develops. It's not reasonable to believe Eller is ready to be a 50 point centre yet, but with experience he could. Until he is efficient in the circle he can't accrue responsibility like he can as a wing. I think he could be better than Jannik Hansen on the forecheck, which is saying something. If he succeeds in this role, I would love to see him be a utility solution. I think he is a better option than Gomez in the top 6. My ideal winger to complement Plekanec-Gionta is Elias, but the Habs would have to be competitive to sacrifice the future for him.


Last edited by voyageur: 09-22-2012 at 05:25 AM.
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