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So... No Extension for Edler..?

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Old
09-20-2012, 06:00 PM
  #251
Askel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
MG signed Garrison because of his corsi, not his points.



Because Kevin Bieksa finished 2nd and Dan Hamhuis was only 2pts behind and they both make 4.6m. Again, you shouldn't pay for points anyway, you should be paying for effectiveness.
Point is effectivness ffs, corsi is shot directed at the net, points are goals scored that you were involved in.

Garrison was signed because hes a top 4 2way d-man. Corsi is a way to prove Garrisons numberst is not a stastisal anormallty not the reason he was signed.

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09-20-2012, 06:02 PM
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
MG signed Garrison because of his corsi, not his points.



Because Kevin Bieksa finished 2nd and Dan Hamhuis was only 2pts behind and they both make 4.6m. Again, you shouldn't pay for points anyway, you should be paying for effectiveness.
Hamhuis and Bieksa didn't get their most recent contract off of this past season, so you can't use those as examples.

There are so many other more suitables comparables you could use, but you choose to ignore all of them, and choose two examples that don't compare to Edler's stats, skillset and situation at all.

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09-20-2012, 06:02 PM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Askel View Post
Point is effectivness ffs, corsi is shot directed at the net, points are goals scored that you were involved in.

Garrison was signed because hes a top 4 2way d-man. Corsi is a way to prove Garrisons numberst is not a stastisal anormallty not the reason he was signed.
And how do you think you become an effective defenseman? By minimizing your shots against and maximizing shots directed at the other teams net. That will also lead to more points. Or just being spoonfed top PP minutes.

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09-20-2012, 06:08 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
There are a lot of differing opinion, not all of them can be correct. Corsi is a good way to make an argument. If you don't think corsi is relevant, that's fine, but you're wrong



Garrison played well with Mike Weaver the season before, so yes, he did take it into account.
Corsi is one of many factors that would go into most people's judgment of players. Do you think Garrison gets 6 years and $4.6M without scoring 16 goals?

I can't wait to see how much money Justin Williams gets on his next deal with his corsi. I'm guessing $7M+.

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09-20-2012, 06:11 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
Hamhuis and Bieksa didn't get their most recent contract off of this past season, so you can't use those as examples.

There are so many other more suitables comparables you could use, but you choose to ignore all of them, and choose two examples that don't compare to Edler's stats, skillset and situation at all.
If we were signing guys based on points then yes, that would be a bad example. IMO we should be signing guys based on their overall contribution, so in that respect all of Hamhuis, Bieksa and Garrison were at least as effective players before getting that money.

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09-20-2012, 06:12 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
And how do you think you become an effective defenseman? By minimizing your shots against and maximizing shots directed at the other teams net. That will also lead to more points. Or just being spoonfed top PP minutes.

Edler is the D-man on the Canucks that works best with the Sedins, thats why he is on the PP. Bieksa doesnt work as well there.

Edler is worth 6 million on the open market, With a no trade and some hometown discount Gillis might get him for 5. But it will probably be 5,5 or he leaves as an UFA.

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Old
09-20-2012, 06:12 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Askel View Post
Edler was 10th in the league in Evenstrengh scoring, he scored as many even strengh points as Pietrangelo, how is that not 5+ million range?
And he scored at an identical pace last season too before getting injured so it's not a one off. In the last 3 years he's put up a 25 ES pts/82 game pace. The list of guys who've done appreciably better than that is quite short.

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09-20-2012, 06:16 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
Corsi is one of many factors that would go into most people's judgment of players. Do you think Garrison gets 6 years and $4.6M without scoring 16 goals?

I can't wait to see how much money Justin Williams gets on his next deal with his corsi. I'm guessing $7M+.
Yes, I do. Other teams may have been offering big money for those goals, I think our GM is smarter then that.

Who you play with and against needs to be taken into context when looking at corsi. Justin Williams is a good possession player that plays with very good to great possession players against average competition.

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09-20-2012, 06:17 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
And how do you think you become an effective defenseman? By minimizing your shots against and maximizing shots directed at the other teams net. That will also lead to more points.
That isn't HOW you become effective, that IS being effective. Come on kids, real world time. Let the CORSI games begin, first up, Fenwick v. Bud Lite +/-!!

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09-20-2012, 06:19 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Yes, I do. Other teams may have been offering big money for those goals, I think our GM is smarter then that.

Who you play with and against needs to be taken into context when looking at corsi. Justin Williams is a good possession player that plays with very good to great possession players against average competition.
I do not have to take anything into consideration. I now believe CORSI should replace GMs and coaches. Plus, they are such cute little dogs.

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09-20-2012, 06:20 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
That isn't HOW you become effective, that IS being effective.
So measuring should give an indication of how effective then?


Last edited by Scurr: 09-20-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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09-20-2012, 06:21 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
I do not have to take anything into consideration. I now believe CORSI should replace GMs and coaches. Plus, they are such cute little dogs.
Some teams would do well to replace their current GM with behindthenet.

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09-20-2012, 06:22 PM
  #263
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I like how Bieksa finishes in the top 50 of ES scoring among defensemen once in the last 5 seasons and all of the sudden he's the gold standard. Meanwhile Edler finishes top 25 in 2 of the last 3 years and he's considered mediocre.

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09-20-2012, 06:36 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
I like how Bieksa finishes in the top 50 of ES scoring among defensemen once in the last 5 seasons and all of the sudden he's the gold standard. Meanwhile Edler finishes top 25 in 2 of the last 3 years and he's considered mediocre.
If that's what you got from this discussion then you missed a lot.

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09-20-2012, 07:06 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I value Bieksa's even strength offense more than Edler's ability to dish the puck to the Sedin's on the PP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
I like how Bieksa finishes in the top 50 of ES scoring among defensemen once in the last 5 seasons and all of the sudden he's the gold standard. Meanwhile Edler finishes top 25 in 2 of the last 3 years and he's considered mediocre.
Y2K, you're up.

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09-20-2012, 07:18 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Y2K, you're up.
One of opendoor's more endearing qualities is his ability to manipulate stats to suit his argument

Kevin Bieksa has 90 ESP's over the last 5 years

Alex Edler has 91 ESP's over the last 5 years

This is where I remind everyone that Bieksa did this against the toughest competition each of those years.

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09-20-2012, 07:22 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
One of opendoor's more endearing qualities is his ability to manipulate stats to suit his argument

Kevin Bieksa has 90 ESP's over the last 5 years

Alex Edler has 91 ESP's over the last 5 years

This is where I remind everyone that Bieksa did this against the toughest competition each of those years.
And without playing with the Sedins most of the time.

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09-20-2012, 07:31 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
And without playing with the Sedins most of the time.
33 of Bieksa's 91 ES pts came with the Sedins; only 31 of Edler's 90 came with the Sedins.

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09-20-2012, 07:46 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
If that's what you got from this discussion then you missed a lot.
That's not the whole picture, but people seem to be diminishing Edler's ES output while extolling Bieksa's; it's really a false dichotomy. Their ES production in terms of total output as well as points per game are very close. Bieksa averages about 1-2 more ES points per game over an 82 game season (which is something he hasn't been able to put up with any kind of regularity).

So the thrust of the argument is that Edler's production is a bit a of a mirage because his Corsi doesn't back that up. But when you're getting into 4-5 season samples that don't illustrate that, the refrain starts to ring hollow. Especially when the total difference over the last 5 seasons has been Bieksa having roughly an extra positive Corsi event every 2 games compared to Edler.

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09-20-2012, 09:02 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
Does it account for the way Edler (sometimes) rushes the puck up the ice? Or his first pass? Its very difficult to replace 50 points from the backend, as we already found out from Ehrhoff. Losing two 50 point players off the blueline in 3 seasons would be pretty catastrophic.
Yes it does account for that.

It's very difficult to replace a high corsi player as well.

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09-20-2012, 09:18 PM
  #271
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I imagine Gillis will approach Edler with a Bieksa cap on a longer term deal, 6-7 years.

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09-20-2012, 09:51 PM
  #272
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It's also worth noting that Bieksa's advantage over Edler in terms of Corsi is solely in blocked shots F/A. Edler actually has a better Fenwick rating than Bieksa does over the past 5 seasons.

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09-20-2012, 10:13 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
It's also worth noting that Bieksa's advantage over Edler in terms of Corsi is solely in blocked shots F/A. Edler actually has a better Fenwick rating than Bieksa does over the past 5 seasons.
Ah I wondered about this. Now I don't have to look it up... If we attribute blocked shots as a skill affect on Corsi, then purely looking at shots directed might shed some light on this argument.


I was on here before extolling Edler's actual impact, but it wasn't well received at that time. Perhaps we'll get to a consensus this time...

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09-20-2012, 10:15 PM
  #274
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Yeah at 26 years of age.
Yes. At 26 years of age.

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09-20-2012, 10:39 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
And without playing with the Sedins most of the time.
The difference between Edler's ice-time with the Sedins and Bieksa's is about 1 minute per game. As I've already pointed out, the advantage of being with Hamhuis 70% of your time is far more impactful than the ~5 minutes (or about 35% of his ES ice-time) Edler gets with the Sedins per game.

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