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Can u see Philly doing a Draft Day trade like this?

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Old
05-03-2006, 06:26 PM
  #26
clay
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The only deal that Pittsburgh would think about is if they got a stud defenseman back in return, ala Jack Johnson, Bourdon, Staal, etc.

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05-03-2006, 09:02 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olias of Sunhillow
Do the Blues still have Jeremy Yablonski? Philly would require he be added to any deal like this.
How about DJ King?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olias of Sunhillow
Seriously, I think Handzus will be traded, since we just have too many centers and both Carter and Richards will need much more ice time next year. Umberger is a different story... he's a former #1 pick who really rounded into form late in the year, and then really got pounded by Brian "Hit Master" Campbell. Clarke would have traded him at the deadline if he was expendable.

Would you take Handzus, 1st, 2nd, and a top AHL prospect?
Depends on which top AHL prospect we're talking about here... I'm interested in (in order) Alexandre Picard, Ben Eager, and Ryan Potulny. Would the Flyers be willing to give up one of them?

P_B


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05-03-2006, 09:03 PM
  #28
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How about a draft day deal for Nabokov to replace Esche? I think a 2nd would be fair althought the draft seems weak.

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05-03-2006, 09:04 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
Hatcher doesnt deserve to be traded.


o rly?

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05-03-2006, 09:12 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue
How about DJ King?



Depends on which top AHL prospect we're talking about here... I'm interested in (in order) Alexandre Picard, Ben Eager, and Ryan Potulny. Would the Flyers be willing to give up one of them?

P_B

Why? From my perspective, no point in seeing the Blues make this trade. I would be really ticked actually. The 1st, 1st ever and highest pick in years... so lets trade it for a deal around Handzus? No way.

Getting another late 1st rounder wont do anything but add a depth player to a system with tons of depth players.

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05-03-2006, 09:15 PM
  #31
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Clarke is definately going to try to move up in this draft, but Umberger, Richards, and Carter aren't going anywhere....there is no way it happens....a 1st, handzus, and a second might be enough to move into the top 10....our first and fedotenko got us into the top 5 a few years ago to get pitkanen

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05-03-2006, 10:14 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanJS
Clarke is definately going to try to move up in this draft, but Umberger, Richards, and Carter aren't going anywhere....there is no way it happens....a 1st, handzus, and a second might be enough to move into the top 10....our first and fedotenko got us into the top 5 a few years ago to get pitkanen
The only saving grace on that deal at all was that TB happened to win the cup that year and Fedotenko was a part of that cup run. Other than that most would say that TB got taken to school on that deal big time. I would not use that deal as a reference point as to what to expect in return value this year, though who knows? As PT Barnum once said there is one born every minute.

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05-03-2006, 10:50 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanJS
Clarke is definately going to try to move up in this draft, but Umberger, Richards, and Carter aren't going anywhere....there is no way it happens....a 1st, handzus, and a second might be enough to move into the top 10....our first and fedotenko got us into the top 5 a few years ago to get pitkanen
It was actually Fedotenko and two 2nds, not one 1st, not to be niggling. Anyway, I would like to see us move up, but I doubt we trade any of our centers until we find out if Forsberg will miss the start of the season due to surgery. We do have a ton of natural centers, though. Forsberg, Carter, Richards, Nedved, Umberger, Primeau (maybe), Downie, Potulny. . . One or two could go in a draft day deal or for an top 4 defenseman at some point, though.

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05-04-2006, 04:44 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenzy1
Why? From my perspective, no point in seeing the Blues make this trade. I would be really ticked actually. The 1st, 1st ever and highest pick in years... so lets trade it for a deal around Handzus? No way.

Getting another late 1st rounder wont do anything but add a depth player to a system with tons of depth players.
QFA.
Come on PB. This draft may be weak after the top 6 or so, but those top 6 are as strong as any other draft in recent years(maybe no Crosby or Ovechkin but still a lot of good top end forwards to be had). At the VERY least we should be Demanding Richards, Philly's 1st and one of their 2nds. It will take a massive overpayment for this pick; Handzus isn't enough to even get the conversation started.

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05-04-2006, 09:09 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimzey59
QFA.
Come on PB. This draft may be weak after the top 6 or so, but those top 6 are as strong as any other draft in recent years(maybe no Crosby or Ovechkin but still a lot of good top end forwards to be had). At the VERY least we should be Demanding Richards, Philly's 1st and one of their 2nds. It will take a massive overpayment for this pick; Handzus isn't enough to even get the conversation started.
The deal isn't necessarily "around Handzus," as Frenzy said.

It's around the two picks, Philly's first-rounder and the highest of their second-rounders. Handzus and a solid prospect, like one of the three I mentioned, are also key components.

As soon as you say the words "Mike Richards" to Bobby Clarke in the context of a trade proposal, the next sound you hear will be a "click" on the other end of the line, followed by a dial tone...

I like the idea of a Handzus-Shishkanov-Backes line for the Blues, to back up the Cajanek-Tkachuk-Orszagh line.

Eager or Potulny will provide some scoring punch at Peoria next year, and either could certainly contend for a third-line role in the NHL with the Blues as soon as this year. If the prospect is Picard instead, there's a defense prospect pretty much on a par with Erik Johnson, and a year or two ahead in his development already.

Meanwhile, the Blues end up drafting 22nd, 27th, 31st and 39th. They will get four NHL players out of those positions with Kekalainen in the drivers' seat, of that I have no doubt.

In the mock draft I'm running, the players chosen in those positions were Ivan Vishnevskiy, Trevor Lewis, Tomas Kana and Joe Ryan. If the Blues came out of the draft adding those four players to the organization, plus Alexandre Picard or Ben Eager or Ryan Potulny, plus Michal Handzus back to anchor a second line, a "new" Legion Of Doom line, in St. Louis, well... color me tickled freakin' pink.

P_B


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05-04-2006, 11:13 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olias of Sunhillow
Do the Blues still have Jeremy Yablonski? Philly would require he be added to any deal like this.

Seriously, I think Handzus will be traded, since we just have too many centers and both Carter and Richards will need much more ice time next year. Umberger is a different story... he's a former #1 pick who really rounded into form late in the year, and then really got pounded by Brian "Hit Master" Campbell. Clarke would have traded him at the deadline if he was expendable.

Would you take Handzus, 1st, 2nd, and a top AHL prospect?
Hate to break it to you, but the Flyers don't have any "top AHL prospect[s]".

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Old
05-04-2006, 11:15 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanJS
Clarke is definately going to try to move up in this draft, but Umberger, Richards, and Carter aren't going anywhere....there is no way it happens....a 1st, handzus, and a second might be enough to move into the top 10....our first and fedotenko got us into the top 5 a few years ago to get pitkanen
You're not getting into the top 5 this year unless you're willing to sacrifice a Carter or a Richards (in that case, add your first). If you're using the Tampa Bay trade as a barometer, you can just as easily use the Oates trade too. Both were anomolies and unlikely to happen again.

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Old
05-04-2006, 11:20 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue
The deal isn't necessarily "around Handzus," as Frenzy said.

It's around the two picks, Philly's first-rounder and the highest of their second-rounders. Handzus and a solid prospect, like one of the three I mentioned, are also key components.

As soon as you say the words "Mike Richards" to Bobby Clarke in the context of a trade proposal, the next sound you hear will be a "click" on the other end of the line, followed by a dial tone...

I like the idea of a Handzus-Shishkanov-Backes line for the Blues, to back up the Cajanek-Tkachuk-Orszagh line.

Eager or Potulny will provide some scoring punch at Peoria next year, and either could certainly contend for a third-line role in the NHL with the Blues as soon as this year. If the prospect is Picard instead, there's a defense prospect pretty much on a par with Erik Johnson, and a year or two ahead in his development already.

Meanwhile, the Blues end up drafting 22nd, 27th, 31st and 39th. They will get four NHL players out of those positions with Kekalainen in the drivers' seat, of that I have no doubt.

In the mock draft I'm running, the players chosen in those positions were Ivan Vishnevskiy, Trevor Lewis, Tomas Kana and Joe Ryan. If the Blues came out of the draft adding those four players to the organization, plus Alexandre Picard or Ben Eager or Ryan Potulny, plus Michal Handzus back to anchor a second line, a "new" Legion Of Doom line, in St. Louis, well... color me tickled freakin' pink.

P_B

So, let me get this straight. The Blues give up a blue chip prospect for a 29 year old third line center and a player and a pick who "might" develop into a third liner or a 5th d-man. Yeah, that's a great way to start the rebuilding process.

If you want value, you need to give up value. Jeff Carter alone, or even Mike Richards and a first won't get you close to the #1 overall pick in this draft.

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05-05-2006, 02:25 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Jimmerson
So, let me get this straight. The Blues give up a blue chip prospect for a 29 year old third line center and a player and a pick who "might" develop into a third liner or a 5th d-man. Yeah, that's a great way to start the rebuilding process.
Clearly you have little understanding of Handzus' value if you consider him no more than a "third line center." On the Blues, in rebuilding mode, he's a second-liner who can score a little, wins most of his faceoffs, will serve as an example to the younger guys (North Americans as well as Euros) on how to play in the defensive end of the rink, and will serve (with Cajanek) as a role model for the young Europeans coming up in the system (Shishkanov, Soderberg, Shkotov, etc).

Clearly, you also have little ability to comprehend the deal in the larger sense. I explained it previously, so I'm not going through it again for you. Suffice it to say, if you consider Picard or Eager to be anything less than excellent prospects with legitmate NHL futures, then as far as I'm concerned you're not worth the trouble to disagree with...

I think it's safe to say that Picard or Eager + picks at 22, 27, 31 and 39 is better for the long-term rebuilding process than Johnson + picks at 27 and 31.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Jimmerson
If you want value, you need to give up value. Jeff Carter alone, or even Mike Richards and a first won't get you close to the #1 overall pick in this draft.
Fine, then... I'm more than happy to stay at #1 overall, draft the next Scott Stevens, and also get picks at #27 and #31... both of whom will be NHL players, I'm confident, because our chief scout is one of the best in the business.

The proposed deal provides the Blues with a few more pieces of the rebuilding puzzle, plus a player who can be very useful in the present day, and is still young enough to be a contirbutor in five years when the rebuild is (theoretically) complete.

P_B


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Old
05-05-2006, 02:57 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Jimmerson
Hate to break it to you, but the Flyers don't have any "top AHL prospect[s]".
Picard is a very good prospect, and Ruzicka has good upside, but our top AHL prospects were on the NHL club all season.

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05-06-2006, 06:31 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue
Clearly, you also have little ability to comprehend the deal in the larger sense. I explained it previously, so I'm not going through it again for you. Suffice it to say, if you consider Picard or Eager to be anything less than excellent prospects with legitmate NHL futures, then as far as I'm concerned you're not worth the trouble to disagree with...
I understand the deal completely and I think it is a poor deal. This is a quantity for quality trade and quite frankly the Blues do not have enough Quality to give it up.

Look at the Blues system - we have plenty of 3rd and 4th liners with a few 2nd liners at forward plus a few Dmen that look to be 2nd pairing. We also have a couple of boom or bust guys. WE DO NOT HAVE ANY ELITE TALLENT AT FORWARD OR ON D.

Adding late picks in the 1st round this year will not change that. You are looking at 2nd pairing Dmen or 2nd line/3rd line players.

This is a chance to get a difference making player. Trading that to bring back a tweener (between the 2nd and 3rd line) C in Handzus w/o out claiming one of their young great Centers (Carter/Richards/Umberger) is a mistake.

This would not help the rebuilding but further delay it. You have a chance to add someone along the lines of a Rob Blake/CP to the roster - you do not pass that up in a quality for quantity trade. (SEE BREWER et al.)

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05-06-2006, 06:42 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Jimmerson
So, let me get this straight. The Blues give up a blue chip prospect for a 29 year old third line center and a player and a pick who "might" develop into a third liner or a 5th d-man. Yeah, that's a great way to start the rebuilding process.

If you want value, you need to give up value. Jeff Carter alone, or even Mike Richards and a first won't get you close to the #1 overall pick in this draft.
I think Richards and a 1st round pick could it...but I doubt Philadelphia is going to do that.

And the Handzus deal wouldn't intice me if I were the Blues. Unless I got a great offer I'd rather just pick Erik Johnson.

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05-06-2006, 07:27 PM
  #43
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Try something like Nittymaki, Richards, 1st for Johnson, 2nd.

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05-06-2006, 08:25 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenzy1
I understand the deal completely and I think it is a poor deal. This is a quantity for quality trade and quite frankly the Blues do not have enough Quality to give it up.

Look at the Blues system - we have plenty of 3rd and 4th liners with a few 2nd liners at forward plus a few Dmen that look to be 2nd pairing. We also have a couple of boom or bust guys. WE DO NOT HAVE ANY ELITE TALLENT AT FORWARD OR ON D.

Adding late picks in the 1st round this year will not change that. You are looking at 2nd pairing Dmen or 2nd line/3rd line players.

This is a chance to get a difference making player. Trading that to bring back a tweener (between the 2nd and 3rd line) C in Handzus w/o out claiming one of their young great Centers (Carter/Richards/Umberger) is a mistake.

This would not help the rebuilding but further delay it. You have a chance to add someone along the lines of a Rob Blake/CP to the roster - you do not pass that up in a quality for quantity trade. (SEE BREWER et al.)
1. Frenzy, I hope you don't think the "you have little understanding of Handzus' value" response was meant for you... I was meant for Jimmerson, who just pooh-poohed the whole deal, and Philly's prospect stable, without offering any basis for his opinion. People who do that just irritate me...

2. I disagree that the Blues have no "elite" talent in the organization. The Blues have several players that, in any other system, would be considered blue-chippers -- Oshie, Backes and Soderberg, to name but three.

If you, or anyone else, thinks that any of those guys wouldn't be The Next Big Thing if they were in Jersey's system, or Ottawa's, or (God forbid) Detroit's, well...

I agree that the Blues probably don't have a legitimate top-pairing d-prospect in the system, although I think Scott Jackson could get there... that's why I'm emphasizing that Alexandre Picard (6-02, 214, 20 years old) be the prospect that comes along with Handzus and the picks. More on that below.

3. I understand your desire to get Johnson into the system. I share it. But, as I said above, Alexandre Picard + picks at 22, 27, 31 and 39 is better for the rebuild than Erik Johnson + picks at 27 and 31.

I am fully confident in Jarmo Kekalainen's ability to turn those four picks (22, 27, 31 and 39) into legitimate top-six forwards and/or first-pairing defensemen.

Picard is legit, the real deal. I'd sacrifice Johnson for Picard plus the extra picks. Just as an example, the Blues could probably draft Timo Seppanen with the #22 pick. Read up on him, and tell me if you think he doesn't have a legitimate shot at being a top-pairing defenseman. Or Yuri Alexandrov. Or Mark Mitera. Or David Fischer. Or Carl Sneep.

Are any of these guys Johnson? No. But any of them, plus Picard, gives the Blues two potential first-pairing d-men, instead of one.

Ty Wishart could easily fall to #22... he's ranked 21st overall in North America right now, and there will be at least two or three Euros, and a goalie, chosen before the #22 spot... not to mention to inevitable reach or two by a team drafting in the second ten.

4. Handzus may be what you call a "tweener," but he fills a need on this team... a veteran leader who is responsible defensively and can score a little. He's only 29, which means he can still be a contributing factor in five years when the rebuild is done or in the final stages; he doesn't command an outrageous salary; and he is a well-regarded ex-Blue.

Don't discount the importance of the last factor in the Blues' plans to get fans back to the Kiel Center; it's a major reason why Brendan Shanahan may well be heavily pursued as a UFA this summer by the Blues.

5. As I said above, as soon as you mention the names "Richards," "Carter," or "Umberger" to Bobby Clarke in the context of a trade proposal, the next sound you hear will be a "click" on the other end of the line, followed by a dial tone. Why kill a deal that could bring great benefits to the franchise by insisting on a player in return that you know the Flyers consider a deal-breaker?

P_B



Last edited by Prussian_Blue: 05-06-2006 at 08:32 PM.
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Old
05-06-2006, 08:38 PM
  #45
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why would they want esche when they got fleury... makes no sense what so ever

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05-06-2006, 10:36 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue
2. I disagree that the Blues have no "elite" talent in the organization. The Blues have several players that, in any other system, would be considered blue-chippers -- Oshie, Backes and Soderberg, to name but three.
I'd sacrifice Johnson for Picard plus the extra picks. Just as an example, the Blues could probably draft Timo Seppanen with the #22 pick. Read up on him, and tell me if you think he doesn't have a legitimate shot at being a top-pairing defenseman. Or Yuri Alexandrov. Or Mark Mitera. Or David Fischer. Or Carl Sneep.
P_B
PB, I disagree with you a little here. I think Oshie, Backes and Soderberg have top 6 potential. Back and Sod are both close to getting a shot in the Show. However, I don't know that either will be an allstar - Brad Richards/Naslund.. types. And it does help to have those on the team (especially considering the draft will be very important in managing the salary cap).

I can say I don't know much about Picard, but I don't feel that players like Mintera (who I have seen w/ US national and at Michigan - live) will be a top pairing Dman. Remember, this draft really does drop off on the high end after the top 12 or so. Mintera would be a great 2nd pairing guy, but we have plenty of these. I really am not too interested in quasi players.

If we want to add Handzus then trade a mid rounder or a prospect.

If Phili wants Johnson bad enough, then they can offer up one of their centers. The objective should be to get the best deal available and just because a team would loath to give up a young tallent, doesn't mean that we should accept a different offer.

Again, I feel our system has a lot of depth, but nothing elite.

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