The difference between Edler's ice-time with the Sedins and Bieksa's is about 1 minute per game. As I've already pointed out, the advantage of being with Hamhuis 70% of your time is far more impactful than the ~5 minutes (or about 35% of his ES ice-time) Edler gets with the Sedins per game.
One of opendoor's more endearing qualities is his ability to manipulate stats to suit his argument
Kevin Bieksa has 90 ESP's over the last 5 years
Alex Edler has 91 ESP's over the last 5 years
This is where I remind everyone that Bieksa did this against the toughest competition each of those years.
Really? I'm aware Hamhuis and Bieksa play against the other teams top forwards, but isn't it the Sedins (who Edler plays with much of the time) who face the other team's top pairing?
Wouldn't that mean Edler faces the tougher defensive competition?
Really? I'm aware Hamhuis and Bieksa play against the other teams top forwards, but isn't it the Sedins (who Edler plays with much of the time) who face the other team's top pairing?
Wouldn't that mean Edler faces the tougher defensive competition?
Defensemen rarely directly "compete" with other defensemen. So that doesn't make sense.
Really? I'm aware Hamhuis and Bieksa play against the other teams top forwards, but isn't it the Sedins (who Edler plays with much of the time) who face the other team's top pairing?
Wouldn't that mean Edler faces the tougher defensive competition?
Top defensemen are usually matched up against top forwards, but that doesn't mean they'll also face the other teams' top defensemen. Matchups are D-F oriented rather than D-D or D-everyone else
Defensemen rarely directly "compete" with other defensemen. So that doesn't make sense.
For the most part yes your right. But Corsi doesn't take that into effect. When Bieksa is creating shots against offensive 2nd pairing at best defencemen and Edler is creating offense for his forwards against the Webers and Seakbrooks of the league, it apparently doesn't matter.
Top defensemen are usually matched up against top forwards, but that doesn't mean they'll also face the other teams' top defensemen. Matchups are D-F oriented rather than D-D or D-everyone else
Again, if Edler is on the ice with the Sedins, the Canucks' top forwards, does that not mean he's playing against the other teams top D?
Defensemen rarely directly "compete" with other defensemen. So that doesn't make sense.
Yes. This is technically true. But do they affect Corsi regardless? Corsi is shot differential when a player is on the ice. If Edler is facing a top D pairing more often than not, even if directly not opposing Edler, do they negatively affect the shots VAN attempts to direct at the opposing net?
Another aspect of this is shut-down units, not just shut-down dpairs. For instance, if Bolland + 2 defensive wingers seem to always come out with Keith+Seabrook to face the twins, is Edler not facing better defensive forwards as a result? If so, do we have to adjust for that?
what do you based this on? what part of edler's game suggest that he can no longer improve?
lidstrom didn't win his first norris until 30, and he continue to win them until late 30's. d-men can get better as they near 30.
And how do you think you become an effective defenseman? By minimizing your shots against and maximizing shots directed at the other teams net. That will also lead to more points. Or just being spoonfed top PP minutes.
goals > shots. directing shots at the other team is great, but you win games by out-SCORING the opposition, not out-SHOOTING them. lidstrom didn't win all those norris trophies by hitting goalies with a million shots, he won them because he average 60+ pts a season. since 2009/2010 edler have outscored bieksa 124 to 88. you can argue their roles all you want, but if bieksa is the better offensive player, he would've got the better offensive minutes/situations.
edler earned the #1 PP time on merit, he wasn't spoonfed.
When talking spoon-feed minutes among D-men on the team I remember this being discussed a while back, and it wasn't Edler.
Tough have a top four guy "sheltered" when there's really nobody playing close to 30 minutes a game & our 3rd pairing is often 'a work in progress' (I'm being kind) due to injuries. This isn't like the old Habs team of the "big three" or a more recent example of the Ducks "big three" (Beauchemin [sp?], Pronger & Neidermayer).
Again, if Edler is on the ice with the Sedins, the Canucks' top forwards, does that not mean he's playing against the other teams top D?
Yeah. When Edler plays with the Sedins he's more often than not facing the other teams top D too. But the D he's up against doesn't matter as much as the forwards. So given he's with the Sedins he will likely see the other teams top two way or shutdown line.
Tough have a top four guy "sheltered" when there's really nobody playing close to 30 minutes a game & our 3rd pairing is often 'a work in progress' (I'm being kind) due to injuries. This isn't like the old Habs team of the "big three" or a more recent example of the Ducks "big three" (Beauchemin [sp?], Pronger & Neidermayer).
Yeah. When Edler plays with the Sedins he's more often than not facing the other teams top D too. But the D he's up against doesn't matter as much as the forwards. So given he's with the Sedins he will likely see the other teams top two way or shutdown line.
Then it still adversely affects his stats, as he's playing against tougher defensive competition, whether it be forwards or D.
It also means that, while Bieksa sees tougher offensive competition, he's out against players who are defensively inferior to those Edler plays against.
I think people are really overstating the difference in ice time and competition between the Canucks' defensemen. People are talking like Edler was stapled to the Sedins and then drawing conclusions from that. Here's how much time each defenseman actually played with H. Sedin on average per game:
So Edler got all of 44 seconds more per game with the Sedins than Bieksa did. In fact, the difference between Edler and Bieksa is smaller than the difference between Bieksa and his own partner Hamhuis.
It's also worth noting that Bieksa's advantage over Edler in terms of Corsi is solely in blocked shots F/A. Edler actually has a better Fenwick rating than Bieksa does over the past 5 seasons.
OK, so they are having very close to the same impact on a per game basis. Why should pay Edler 1m more per season?
OK, so they are having very close to the same impact on a per game basis. Why should pay Edler 1m more per season?
Because Edler is younger, is coming off a better season than Bieksa was when he signed, and in the time since Bieksa signed the market for offensive Defenseman has changed.
And none of those reasons take into account that Edler is better than Bieksa.
Plus, Bieksa would likely get over $5 million if he were a free agent now.
Last edited by 14s incisor: 09-21-2012 at 08:53 PM.
How can you be sure that this is Edler's desire and not Gillis'? Gillis is smart not to extend him until the CBA tells us exactly what the contract rules are. Maybe there will be more flexibility in the new cba?
How can you be sure that this is Edler's desire and not Gillis'? Gillis is smart not to extend him until the CBA tells us exactly what the contract rules are. Maybe there will be more flexibility in the new cba?
That's true. If the UFA age is raised, then it would be beneficial for Gillis to wait.
How can you be sure that this is Edler's desire and not Gillis'? Gillis is smart not to extend him until the CBA tells us exactly what the contract rules are. Maybe there will be more flexibility in the new cba?
I tend to agree this is a reflection of a 'wait and see' approach by Gillis. It does appear that if there is indeed any change to contract rules, it will be in favour of ownership and management, potentially making Edler easier to sign.
Additionally, should there be no full season lockout, it provides an opportunity to see whether the issues Edler had towards the end of last season are solved by a new partner in Garrison.
How can you be sure that this is Edler's desire and not Gillis'? Gillis is smart not to extend him until the CBA tells us exactly what the contract rules are. Maybe there will be more flexibility in the new cba?
This is my opinion as well. Edler wants to be here so there's no rush. Let's see what the cap is gonna be at before signing him to a lucrative long term deal. Unless he's taking a considerable discount under this CBA there's not much of a point.
Edler is 26 while Bieksa is 31. It's reasonable to expect Bieksa will start to fade in performance sooner than Edler.
Bieksa plays a defensive role vs tougher opposition, but there will always be that doubt as to whether he would do well in this capacity without Mitchell and Hamhuis as a partner.
Bieksa makes 4.6 mil, he is older and probably has a lower ceiling than Edler. For that reason I can see Edler being paid 5.5 . 6 would be harder to justify. And above 6 is impossible.
