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Trade Idea (Tor/Van)

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:14 PM
  #51
GordieHoweHatTrick
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
I'd be content with a "Mike Richards" type package, I'd even up the ante to make it happen.

Kulemin + Kadri + ???

Thoughts
Kulemin's value is at an all-time low. You're not getting much in return for him. Same could be said for Kadri actually. Unless Kulemin puts up +20G while playing beastly D and unless Kadri sticks on an NHL club and produces you're getting laughed at

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09-21-2012, 01:15 PM
  #52
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Well there were rumours at the end of last season that there was some talk of him leaving and management not being happy with him. I can't recall at the moment what for.

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09-21-2012, 01:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Kulemin's value is at an all-time low. You're not getting much in return for him. Same could be said for Kadri actually. Unless Kulemin puts up +20G while playing beastly D and unless Kadri sticks on an NHL club and produces you're getting laughed at
Hence I added the +

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:18 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Well there were rumours at the end of last season that there was some talk of him leaving and management not being happy with him. I can't recall at the moment what for.
You have to look at it from VANs side. Why would they trade one of their best forwards and leaders, also their top penalty killer for a bunch of downgrades? Theyre contending for a Cup, im sorry, MacArthur Kulemin and Bozak dont make them a better team.

Talk about a Kessel/Kesler deal and theyd likely be interested, but other than that I just dont see it as a possibility.

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:19 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Except Vancouver doesnt WANT TO TRADE Kesler.

Trading Kesler for anything on the Leafs roster except maybe a combo of Kessel/Gardiner/Phaneuf wouldn't make a lick of sense for them.

Would you trade Kessel for Mason Raymond, Kassian and ???
Flyers fan also didn't want to see Richards gone, but it isn't our call if they trade him.

He could be moved if Vancouver feels like they won't win with him.

Kadri doesn't have the upside that B Schenn has, so you would need to add a little to him. Kulemin is a good piece because he is very similar to Simmonds(not as a player, but organizational stand point). Under achieving and not being utilized to his fullest. Just the next few pieces would have to really make it worth it. The 1st rounder from Toronto could hold a good amount of value since it could be a top 10.

One huge stepping stone in these trade talks is if Vancouver has someone who can fill that 2nd line center spot. Richards and Carter were made available to some degree because the Flyers felt Giroux could become what he has. I don't think Vancouver really has that 2nd line center in waiting right now.

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:22 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Flyers fan also didn't want to see Richards gone, but it isn't our call if they trade him.

He could be moved if Vancouver feels like they won't win with him.

Kadri doesn't have the upside that B Schenn has, so you would need to add a little to him. Kulemin is a good piece because he is very similar to Simmonds(not as a player, but organizational stand point). Under achieving and not being utilized to his fullest. Just the next few pieces would have to really make it worth it. The 1st rounder from Toronto could hold a good amount of value since it could be a top 10.
Who said anything about us? Does the Vancouver brass want to trade Kesler? If they do, then this might work, but if no one wants to trade Kesler/its going to make their team worse, in what world does trading Kesler make sense?

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:25 PM
  #57
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Kesler isn't going unless we get a massive overpayment. He's one of our franchaise guys, after the Sedins.

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09-21-2012, 01:28 PM
  #58
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Classic quantity for quality. You don't do those trades unless you have to trade the player for whatever reason. If Kesler ever asked for a trade, I wouldn't be insulted with this offer. But since he hasn't, I would decline.

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:30 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Kadri doesn't have the upside that B Schenn has, so you would need to add a little to him.
This is the sticking point IMO. Phillie gave up the best player, but got a player with very high upside in return. Kadri could turn out really well, but isn't likely to end up as close to Kesler's level as Schenn was to end up close to Richards' level.

Gardiner or Rielly are the two pieces Toronto has that are comparable value to Schenn when he was traded IMO.

Gardiner/Rielly + Kulemin + 1st (not protected) for Kesler

That's roughly what Phillie got for Richards.

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09-21-2012, 01:32 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Kessel > Kesler as far as value goes.
What, other than your own personal bias, do you have to back this up? I actually provided reasoning for my viewpoint :

- similar offensive numbers, considering Kesler has 2nd line minutes and Kessel 1st line minutes, means offensively Kesler is at least on par with Kessel
- the defensive, PK, and physical sides of the game are all VERY in favour of Kesler
- center > winger, especially since this trade would create a hole for Vanouver while filling Toronto's biggest hole
- they have no reason or desire to trade Kesler

I'm still waiting for a legitimate argument from you. And again, I say this all as not only not a Kesler or Canucks fan, but someone who greatly dislikes them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Lets say Kulemin, TOR 1st 2012 (not top ten protected) and pick one of the good prospects.
So... Reilley?

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:35 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by deckercky View Post
This is the sticking point IMO. Phillie gave up the best player, but got a player with very high upside in return. Kadri could turn out really well, but isn't likely to end up as close to Kesler's level as Schenn was to end up close to Richards' level.

Gardiner or Rielly are the two pieces Toronto has that are comparable value to Schenn when he was traded IMO.

Gardiner/Rielly + Kulemin + 1st (not protected) for Kesler

That's roughly what Phillie got for Richards.
That's not a bad offer, but I think you can change that 1st rounder to a 2nd rounder if you include Rielly/Gardiner.

Gardiner/Rielly+Kulemin+2nd rounder would be just about the same value Richards got back. That 1st rounder could be top 10, so they would be giving up a good amount more value than The Kings in the Richards deal. 2nd rounder could be 30-45 range if Toronto fails to see the playoffs again.

I actually think that would be a fair trade too. Sticking point for me would be Vancouver doesn't have a 2nd line center to replace Kesler.

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:35 PM
  #62
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Kulemin + Kadri/Colborne + Bozak

for

Kesler


Would you be adverse to dealing Kassian as well?

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09-21-2012, 01:37 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by deckercky View Post
This is the sticking point IMO. Phillie gave up the best player, but got a player with very high upside in return. Kadri could turn out really well, but isn't likely to end up as close to Kesler's level as Schenn was to end up close to Richards' level.

Gardiner or Rielly are the two pieces Toronto has that are comparable value to Schenn when he was traded IMO.

Gardiner/Rielly + Kulemin + 1st (not protected) for Kesler

That's roughly what Phillie got for Richards.
Incorrect

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:37 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Kulemin + Kadri/Colborne + Bozak

for

Kesler


Would you be adverse to dealing Kassian as well?
This really isn't close.

If the Canucks were to move Kesler it would be an impact player coming back. Kulemin, prospect, Bozak isn't anywhere close.

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:38 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Kulemin + Kadri/Colborne + Bozak

for

Kesler


Would you be adverse to dealing Kassian as well?
To get Kesler you would have to include one of Gardiner/Rielly I believe. They are top end prospects/young talent that usually moves in these types of deals.

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:39 PM
  #66
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I'll make this as clear as possible. We aren't trading Kesler, even hypothetically, unless Grabovski+++ is coming back.

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:44 PM
  #67
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You can't just overcome quality with quantity FFS. For Van not to hang up the phone in laughter it starts with


Lupul + Gardiner + 1st


And I'm not even joking

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:45 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'll make this as clear as possible. We aren't trading Kesler, even hypothetically, unless Grabovski+++ is coming back.
Ok. Let's see.

To Van:
Grabovski
MacArthur
Colborne
Franson

To Tor:
Kesler
Kassian

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:45 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It's a bit too future-centred, I think. If we were trading Kesler it would have to be for a clear improvement to our roster now.
I don't really know Vancouver's needs, but from Leafs perspectives it doesn't improve us much (if at all) trading Kessel for Kesler. Gardiner/Rielly + 1st is similar value to Kessel, and those are assets any team could use IMHO. The Leafs currently suck too much to trade their best player for an older player is my point, maybe if they were already a playoff team. We're just discussing values anyways, Kesler would have to be smoking too much bc chronic to waive his no trade clause for Toronto.

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:48 PM
  #70
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Grabo
Gardiner/Rielly
2nd

for

Kesler

That would be my deal. This is from a unbiased fan too, it seems right value wise and fair for both teams.

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:50 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
I don't really know Vancouver's needs, but from Leafs perspectives it doesn't improve us much (if at all) trading Kessel for Kesler. Gardiner/Rielly + 1st is similar value to Kessel, and those are assets any team could use IMHO. The Leafs currently suck too much to trade their best player for an older player is my point, maybe if they were already a playoff team. We're just discussing values anyways, Kesler would have to be smoking too much bc chronic to waive his no trade clause for Toronto.
Well, Kesler + Luongo for Grabovski + Kessel would probably benefit both teams, but that's about the most I would do.

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:51 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Grabo
Gardiner/Rielly
2nd

for

Kesler

That would be my deal. This is from a unbiased fan too, it seems right value wise and fair for both teams.
So you think a top 5 pick a 2nd and a 2nd line center get you another 2nd line center.

Way off IMO.

Grabo + 2nd + ?? (definetely not our best prospect)

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09-21-2012, 01:52 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jammyrft View Post
You can't just overcome quality with quantity FFS. For Van not to hang up the phone in laughter it starts with


Lupul + Gardiner + 1st


And I'm not even joking
I MIGHT consider Lupul for Kesler.....

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:52 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Grabo
Gardiner/Rielly
2nd

for

Kesler

That would be my deal. This is from a unbiased fan too, it seems right value wise and fair for both teams.
It may be fair, but it doesn't really help us. I wouldn't do it.

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Old
09-21-2012, 01:53 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
So you think a top 5 pick a 2nd and a 2nd line center get you another 2nd line center.

Way off IMO.

Grabo + 2nd + ?? (definetely not our best prospect)
Kelser would be a first line center on the Leafs. He is only a second line center in Vancouver because of H. Sedin.

Grabo would replace Kesler on the 2nd line, top prospect because Kesler is/will always be better than Grabo(both offensively and defensively) and a pick. It's pretty fair value. Maybe a little more than Toronto feels comfortable giving up, but not horrible value.

Most of your deals just involve quantity. You need to include some top young high end potential to make these deals, not just throwing players you don't need to make a deal.

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