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Old
09-21-2012, 07:23 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Morecupsthanyou View Post
It's not a matter of opinion. It's just fact. 24th at the end of the 2008 season as opposed to 26th at the end of the 2012. The leafs have not gotten any better.

And Brian Burke mortgaged the future when he made the kessel trade. Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton are/going to be star players.
He should have known where the leafs were going to finish having been in the bottom 5 the previous year and never should have let it happen. I'm sorry, but the man's ego is massive, and he just couldn't sit patiently on what would have turned out to be your number one center and defender. He's a man who's preached building a team from the backend, and after 4 years he's yet to complete that task.
Again with this.

I'm not gonna debate the Kessel deal again. If you think adding a 21 year old 30 goal scoring potential superstar is mortgaging the future, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I would also like to point out AGAIN that Burke's tenure did not end with that trade. Adding Gardiner, Colborne, Ashton, Bozak, Biggs, Percy, kinda goes against the whole mortgaging the future theory.

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09-21-2012, 07:25 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
No, but they shouldn't take 4 years to make the playoffs either. Not everyone can be as good as Paul Holmgren is in Philadelphia, inheriting one of the worst teams in the league, drafting JvR, and go back to being an instant playoff team the next year, despite not having that #2 overall pick do anything material for your franchise at any point.

But, when you've got resources at the table, there's absolutely no good reason it should be 4 years to make the playoffs. It should be 5 years to be a legitimate contender, which means you need to make the playoffs in year 2 or 3.
Thats an interesting theory. You know there's a difference between having a terrible season and rebuilding though right?

And inheriting one of the worst teams? Really?

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09-21-2012, 08:06 AM
  #128
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Marc started his job a few months back, however his draft doesn't represent him as much as it represents Timmins. The Head of their scouting has been a brilliant person and honestly is one of the best in the business. He has signed some interesting player to address the size and aggresiveness the habs had lacked to insulate players, but then again they are signings at this point and haven't shown if they can perform to the way they are expected. Burke has made some questionable moves but he has done more positive than negative to this franchise even though his record doesn't reflect that.

While Bergevin has some solid pieces to play around with from a starting goaltender which we lacked since beflour, to a young defensive core in subban, tinordi, beaulieu, and ofc the head honcho atm in the glass man markov(love the guy but he seriously needs to get healthy, even though he is a hab and i dislike him when we play against him). Maxipad who has returned very well from a horrendous hit, and more. Burke wasn't given the same luxury. So to compare the two at this time is very pre-mature and should be judged in say 10 years.

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09-21-2012, 08:13 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The writing is on the wall.
Your unbridled pessimism and persistent, consistent expressions of disdain are impressive, if nothing else.

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Old
09-21-2012, 08:33 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Thats an interesting theory. You know there's a difference between having a terrible season and rebuilding though right?

And inheriting one of the worst teams? Really?
It is a younger team today:
Year - Average Age
2008 - 27.793
2009 - 28.020
2010 - 27.113
2011 - 25.910
2012 - 26.122
2013 - 27.024

2006-2007 - 18th. - JFj last season in charge
2007-2008 - 24th. - JFj-Fletcher took over in late January
2008-2009 - 24th. - Fletcher - Burke takes over in December
2009-2010 - 29th. - Burke with his summer retool
2010-2011 - 22nd. - Burke fully in charge
2011-2012 - 26th. - Burke running with his plan

http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams?year=2012

TeamAverage Age
COL25.78
TOR26.122
NAS26.226
NYR26.536
BUF26.581
WPG26.627
LAK26.645
EDM26.687
CAR26.709
MIN26.788
CLB26.939
STL26.943
MTL27.034
OTT27.407
CHI27.453
PHI27.689
NYI27.7
SJS27.738
VAN27.907
BOS27.957
WAS27.958
DAL28.251
CGY28.287
PIT28.295
ANA28.308
FLA28.349
PHX28.512
TBL28.674
NJD28.842
DET29.429

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09-21-2012, 08:35 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Marc started his job a few months back, however his draft doesn't represent him as much as it represents Timmins.
Safe to say GM's don't do the scouting, so let's say the scouting staffs are responsible for the draft picks.

So can't rate either GM higher in this regard.

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09-21-2012, 10:56 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
It is a younger team today:
Year - Average Age
2008 - 27.793
2009 - 28.020
2010 - 27.113
2011 - 25.910
2012 - 26.122
2013 - 27.024

2006-2007 - 18th. - JFj last season in charge
2007-2008 - 24th. - JFj-Fletcher took over in late January
2008-2009 - 24th. - Fletcher - Burke takes over in December
Burke's current team is not younger than the inherited team, based on "young players" 24 or younger.

Cliff Fletcher's team that began the 2008-09 season had 11 players (of the 23) on the roster 24 years old or younger.. Colaiacovo, Grabovski, Kulemin, Mitchell, Schenn, Stajan, Steen, Tlusty, Hollweg, White, Stralman.

Burke's "young" team that is scheduled to start the current upcoming season has potentially 6 players, Kessel, JVR, Frattin*, Kadri*, Gardiner, & Reimer .. That includes Kessel who turns 25 (Oct 2), and Frattin and Kadri who are both not guarantees to make the team.

Cliff Fletcher's 2008-09 team also finished higher than Burke's 2011-12 team in the standings, and resulted in the drafting of Kadri as net end result of finish.

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09-21-2012, 06:13 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by anderson3133 View Post
Holmgren inherited Giroux, Nodl, Carter, Richards, Gagne, Knuble and Forsberg. Life must have been real tough to turn that sinking ship around
Holmgren also developed those 3 guys from bottom-of-the-lineup players / prospects to valuable contributors.

It's easy to look back at players he successfully converted into great ones, but where's Jiri Tlusty? (side note, is he playing for Jagr's team in the Czech Republic??)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Thats an interesting theory. You know there's a difference between having a terrible season and rebuilding though right?

And inheriting one of the worst teams? Really?
Rebuilding is what teams who have a terrible season should (and most often) do. There's obviously different ways to do it, Holmgren executed almost perfectly, Burke's been a complete disaster. 4 years in and we're still hoping for a playoff spot. Holmgren hasn't missed the playoffs since he took over, and made a Stanley Cup Finals appearance. Obviously no cup so he doesn't get full marks, but that's a pretty solid track record.

Philadelphia was the worst or second worst team in hockey when Paul Holmgren took over, IIRC.

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09-21-2012, 07:16 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Holmgren also developed those 3 guys from bottom-of-the-lineup players / prospects to valuable contributors.

It's easy to look back at players he successfully converted into great ones, but where's Jiri Tlusty? (side note, is he playing for Jagr's team in the Czech Republic??)



Rebuilding is what teams who have a terrible season should (and most often) do. There's obviously different ways to do it, Holmgren executed almost perfectly, Burke's been a complete disaster. 4 years in and we're still hoping for a playoff spot. Holmgren hasn't missed the playoffs since he took over, and made a Stanley Cup Finals appearance. Obviously no cup so he doesn't get full marks, but that's a pretty solid track record.

Philadelphia was the worst or second worst team in hockey when Paul Holmgren took over, IIRC.
Holmgrem has done some excellent work for the Flyers but Philly was far from being a perennial bottom feeding team. They're just a team that had a lot of things all go wrong one year.

Holgrem didn't turn Richards and Carter into what they were/are! In the 06-07 season they both missed approximately 20 games due to injury. The following season in their 3rd season they both broke out.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Carter and Richards are what made Carter and Richards. Not a new GM taking over.

Tlusty already had bust written all over him before Burke came to town. Tlusty hasn't accomplished anything of note since leaving the Leafs either.

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09-21-2012, 07:36 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by HABitual Fan View Post
Geez you make it sound like he was given the three top picks in the draft as a welcoming present. He drafted 3rd overall because his new team was the 3rd worst team in the NHL last season. After that pick the rest was a crapshoot and probably more a function of choice rather then draft position.
I didn't make it sound like anything. My point was that Bergevin has done nothing of significance so far but maintain the status quo so far, and that is exactly what has happened.

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09-21-2012, 08:03 PM
  #136
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If Bergevin didn't speak French, he'd be unemployed as a GM. We all know this is true.

And Therrien would be unemployed too.

Bergevin has done nothing to be compared to Burke.

Bergevin was the best French speaking GM candidate for Montreal. There was what, 1 other possible candidate?

Oh he beat out Pierre Mcguire. What a star!


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09-21-2012, 08:46 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Again with this.

I'm not gonna debate the Kessel deal again. If you think adding a 21 year old 30 goal scoring potential superstar is mortgaging the future, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I would also like to point out AGAIN that Burke's tenure did not end with that trade. Adding Gardiner, Colborne, Ashton, Bozak, Biggs, Percy, kinda goes against the whole mortgaging the future theory.
Don't forget Burke also drafted Morgan Rielly and Matt Finn.

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09-21-2012, 08:48 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Burke's current team is not younger than the inherited team, based on "young players" 24 or younger.

Cliff Fletcher's team that began the 2008-09 season had 11 players (of the 23) on the roster 24 years old or younger.. Colaiacovo, Grabovski, Kulemin, Mitchell, Schenn, Stajan, Steen, Tlusty, Hollweg, White, Stralman.

Burke's "young" team that is scheduled to start the current upcoming season has potentially 6 players, Kessel, JVR, Frattin*, Kadri*, Gardiner, & Reimer .. That includes Kessel who turns 25 (Oct 2), and Frattin and Kadri who are both not guarantees to make the team.

Cliff Fletcher's 2008-09 team also finished higher than Burke's 2011-12 team in the standings, and resulted in the drafting of Kadri as net end result of finish.
Now your're suddenly throwing out that 24 stat to try to change the argument.

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09-21-2012, 08:53 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Morecupsthanyou View Post
It's not a matter of opinion. It's just fact. 24th at the end of the 2008 season as opposed to 26th at the end of the 2012. The leafs have not gotten any better.

And Brian Burke mortgaged the future when he made the kessel trade. Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton are/going to be star players.
He should have known where the leafs were going to finish having been in the bottom 5 the previous year and never should have let it happen. I'm sorry, but the man's ego is massive, and he just couldn't sit patiently on what would have turned out to be your number one center and defender. He's a man who's preached building a team from the backend, and after 4 years he's yet to complete that task.
Getting a 21 year-old who now finished 6th in league scoring is hardly "Mortgaging the future". Why try to make it sound like Kessel was a 33 year-old soon-to-be UFA? He's a superstar winger.

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09-21-2012, 09:29 PM
  #140
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He (Bergevin) gets an F for his coach hiring. That has "destined to fail" written all over it.

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09-21-2012, 10:36 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
He (Bergevin) gets an F for his coach hiring. That has "destined to fail" written all over it.
In fairness, he was stuck hiring the best French coach.

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09-21-2012, 10:56 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
In fairness, he was stuck hiring the best French coach.
That's when you tell the fans to cram it with walnuts. You hire the best guy available, with the stipulation he must learn french. I hope it blows up in his face for not having the spine to make the right call.

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09-21-2012, 11:00 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
That's when you tell the fans to cram it with walnuts. You hire the best guy available, with the stipulation he must learn french. I hope it blows up in his face for not having the spine to make the right call.
Geoff Molson pandered to the French media by throwing his coach under the buss. I hope it bombs in hisface.

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09-21-2012, 11:43 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
That's when you tell the fans to cram it with walnuts. You hire the best guy available, with the stipulation he must learn french. I hope it blows up in his face for not having the spine to make the right call.
that to me is the analysis of someone who desn't have a clue what he's talking about. The right call was to let the fanbase know the club's history and tradition will be kept and protected. After years of feeling ''disconnected'' with the club, the fans are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. the ''no need for tough guys or quebec born staff or players, heck lets just run the team like a coal mine '' period is over. Plus, the french factor becomes more and more important as the nordiques' return seems more probable. risking the french speaking fans at this point - especially that far from a cup - would be both stupid and clumsy.

can you please point out to me which candidate - who didn't speak french at all - was THAT much better than terrien that would justify going another 10 years ignoring the club's identity and legacy ? if there was a scotty bowman ... i'd give the owners a tip of the hat to hire him ... but there's none. Some say the owners crumbled under the pressure from ''the french medias'' which is quite an idiotic thing to say ... it just respected its most loyal fans and pioneers. Pressure from the fans is what made the club go that way ... the habs are a private corp. , they don't need to wait for the approval of our french don cherrys to decide anything.

look around the league and scroll down the list of current/former coaches in the past few years and add to that a few candidates ... therrien , julien, lemaire, vigneault, boucher, crawford, jacques martin, patrick roy, bob hartley, guy carbonneau ect ... truth is I wouldn't feel bad picking someone on that list at all. Yes its a question of pride, but not at the expanse of knowledge and quality like some here say.


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09-21-2012, 11:50 PM
  #145
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that to me is the analysis of someone who desn't have a clue what he's talking about. The right call was to let the fanbase know the club's history and tradition will be kept and protected. After years of feeling ''disconnected'' with the club, the fans are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. the ''no need for tough guys or quebec born staff or players, heck lets just run the team like a coal mine '' period is over. Plus, the french factor becomes more and more important as the nordiques' return seems more probable. risking the french speaking fans at this point - especially that far from a cup - would be both stupid and clumsy.

can you please point out to me which candidate - who didn't speak french at all - was THAT much better than terrien that would justify going another 10 years ignoring the club's identity and legacy ? if there was a scotty bowman ... i'd give the owners a tip of the hat to hire him ... but there's none. Some say the owners crumbled under the pressure from ''the french medias'' which is quite an idiotic thing to say ... it just respected its most loyal fans and pioneers. Pressure from the fans is what made the club go that way ... the habs are a private corp. , they don't need to wait for the approval of our french don cherrys to decide anything.

look around the league and scroll down the list of current/former coaches in the past few years and add to that a few candidates ... therrien , julien, lemaire, vigneault, boucher, crawford, jacques martin, patrick roy, bob hartley, guy carbonneau ect ... truth is I wouldn't feel bad picking someone on that list at all.
This is nonsense. The Habs are the most storied franchise and yet they have far less coaching/GM candidates to choose from than Columbus. All it does is hurt the franchise.

And the fans didn't chose squat-The Xenophobic French media did. Randy Cunneyworth was shamelessly thrown under a bus.

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09-21-2012, 11:52 PM
  #146
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It's a ****ing hockey team. The goal should be to win, not pander to the fans/media. If you think Therrien was the best, or even close to the best candidate available, you're out of your mind. And yes, Crawford, or Vigneault would be considerably better choices.

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09-21-2012, 11:53 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
that to me is the analysis of someone who desn't have a clue what he's talking about. The right call was to let the fanbase know the club's history and tradition will be kept and protected. After years of feeling ''disconnected'' with the club, the fans are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. the ''no need for tough guys or quebec born staff or players, heck lets just run the team like a coal mine '' period is over. Plus, the french factor becomes more and more important as the nordiques' return seems more probable. risking the french speaking fans at this point - especially that far from a cup - would be both stupid and clumsy.

can you please point out to me which candidate - who didn't speak french at all - was THAT much better than terrien that would justify going another 10 years ignoring the club's identity and legacy ? if there was a scotty bowman ... i'd give the owners a tip of the hat to hire him ... but there's none. Some say the owners crumbled under the pressure from ''the french medias'' which is quite an idiotic thing to say ... it just respected its most loyal fans and pioneers. Pressure from the fans is what made the club go that way ... the habs are a private corp. , they don't need to wait for the approval of our french don cherrys to decide anything.

look around the league and scroll down the list of current/former coaches in the past few years and add to that a few candidates ... therrien , julien, lemaire, vigneault, boucher, crawford, jacques martin, patrick roy, bob hartley, guy carbonneau ect ... truth is I wouldn't feel bad picking someone on that list at all. Yes its a question of pride, but not at the expanse of knowledge and quality like some here say.
great post. The Therrien hiring wasn't very popular in Montreal. If Vigneault had been available Bergevin would've jumped. If McGill alumni Babcok would've been available I have 0 doubt Bergevin would've jumped too - and the franco fan base and media would've been very fine with it. Keep in mind Quenneville was Bergevin's 1st choice and i have little doubt we will revisit this rumor within a year or two again

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09-21-2012, 11:57 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
It's a ****ing hockey team. The goal should be to win, not pander to the fans/media. If you think Therrien was the best, or even close to the best candidate available, you're out of your mind. And yes, Crawford, or Vigneault would be considerably better choices.
Therrien's a moron/recycled coach who cost Montreal in 02' a chance at the finals with a moronic penalty. He'd never get another shot in Montreal if he wasn't the only candidate who could speak French.

Montreal is becoming very, very sad.

The Habs. much like the city of Montreal are being forgotten fast.

Crawford's French is horrific. He'd never be accepted in Montreal BTW.

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09-22-2012, 12:19 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Getting a 21 year-old who now finished 6th in league scoring is hardly "Mortgaging the future". Why try to make it sound like Kessel was a 33 year-old soon-to-be UFA? He's a superstar winger.
If this lockout lasts the whole season, then we could see just ONE more season with Kessel. I wouldn't blame him if he signs elsewhere... the leafs are still a disaster.

And Seguin will be going into year three, and the guy touted last year as the highest rated defensive prospect in the world would be going into his rookie year.

I would 100% call that mortgaging our future.

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09-22-2012, 12:22 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post

I would also like to point out AGAIN that Burke's tenure did not end with that trade. Adding Gardiner, Colborne, Ashton, Bozak, Biggs, Percy, kinda goes against the whole mortgaging the future theory.
With the possible exception of Gardiner... every single solitary team in the nhl is loaded with players exactly like those guys. Every single team.
And their GM's aren't the highest paid in all of world history.

Only leafs fans would be proud of a bunch of 3rd line/4th pairing projected prospects.

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