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09-20-2012, 11:17 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by pvr View Post
Is there any other business paradigm in the world outside of sports where the employees demand a fixed percentage of revenue in salary from the business owners?
Professional services firms (law, accounting recruiters, banking) typically pay between 50-70% of revenues out in the form of compensation and benefits. Not quite the same paradigm because often a lot of the employees are also owners (e.g., partners).

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09-21-2012, 04:21 AM
  #52
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Professional services firms (law, accounting recruiters, banking) typically pay between 50-70% of revenues out in the form of compensation and benefits. Not quite the same paradigm because often a lot of the employees are also owners (e.g., partners).
As you pointed out, it's not the same. The "partners" are the "owners", and still would make more than the clerks, secretaries, etc... Most business operate with an "overhead" that includes anything and everything to make it run. Can be low or high, but individual employees still make less than owners, even if the overhead exceeds 50% and the sum of monies going out is greater than an owner might be compensated.

The only instance I can think of perhaps might be if a junior law partner won a huge settlement and receive a bonus that put him above the pay of a full partner. I'm not a lawyer, and it seems that scenario could be possible as a rare exception, but my guess is that the firm still would distribute an even greater chunk to all full partners.

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09-21-2012, 10:46 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by pvr View Post
As you pointed out, it's not the same. The "partners" are the "owners", and still would make more than the clerks, secretaries, etc... Most business operate with an "overhead" that includes anything and everything to make it run. Can be low or high, but individual employees still make less than owners, even if the overhead exceeds 50% and the sum of monies going out is greater than an owner might be compensated.

The only instance I can think of perhaps might be if a junior law partner won a huge settlement and receive a bonus that put him above the pay of a full partner. I'm not a lawyer, and it seems that scenario could be possible as a rare exception, but my guess is that the firm still would distribute an even greater chunk to all full partners.
Well there are other exceptions e.g. publicly traded professional service firms/banks where the owners are outside investors. Those firms still have to pay a competitive wage.

And hockey teams have other personnel overhead besides players.

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09-22-2012, 12:33 PM
  #54
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Frolik has signed with the Chomutov of the Czech League - first Hawk to sign an overseas contract.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/blackhawks...st_blackh.html


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09-23-2012, 09:35 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by pvr View Post
As you pointed out, it's not the same. The "partners" are the "owners", and still would make more than the clerks, secretaries, etc... Most business operate with an "overhead" that includes anything and everything to make it run. Can be low or high, but individual employees still make less than owners, even if the overhead exceeds 50% and the sum of monies going out is greater than an owner might be compensated.

The only instance I can think of perhaps might be if a junior law partner won a huge settlement and receive a bonus that put him above the pay of a full partner. I'm not a lawyer, and it seems that scenario could be possible as a rare exception, but my guess is that the firm still would distribute an even greater chunk to all full partners.
So you're saying a secretary to a law firm is Jonathan Toews to the Hawks.

Nice.

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09-24-2012, 05:35 AM
  #56
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So you're saying a secretary to a law firm is Jonathan Toews to the Hawks.

Nice.
You've either missed my point entirely, or you're purposely being obtuse.

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09-25-2012, 03:20 PM
  #57
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I wish Toews would shut his mouth about the lockout already. I'm starting to worry that he buys into to too much of the crap coming out of the NHLPA.

I really want him to shut up. Let Montador or Frolik speak for the NHLPA on behalf of the Hawks instead.

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09-25-2012, 03:54 PM
  #58
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Frolik has signed with the Chomutov of the Czech League - first Hawk to sign an overseas contract.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/blackhawks...st_blackh.html
Maybe he can stay there.

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09-25-2012, 04:59 PM
  #59
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Rozsíval has apparently signed with HC Plzen of the Czech League.

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09-25-2012, 05:42 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by hockeydoug View Post
I wish Toews would shut his mouth about the lockout already. I'm starting to worry that he buys into to too much of the crap coming out of the NHLPA.

I really want him to shut up. Let Montador or Frolik speak for the NHLPA on behalf of the Hawks instead.
I agree. I want to see Toews sounding off about this team when it's warranted, not about the propaganda he is being fed by the latest player rep. It's called hard ball negotiating and we've seen it before from the owners ..... the players don't have a leg to stand on and the hole gets deeper with every passing week with no hockey.

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09-25-2012, 07:57 PM
  #61
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I'm beginning to miss hockey. This sucks, missing prospects during the preseason games.

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Old
09-25-2012, 09:04 PM
  #62
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I agree. I want to see Toews sounding off about this team when it's warranted, not about the propaganda he is being fed by the latest player rep. It's called hard ball negotiating and we've seen it before from the owners
I agree. It was such a shame hearing so many of my favorite players spit out meaningless garbage the last two stoppages. It seems the owners are very willing to concede the PR battle because they gain nothing by ripping the players and probably lose money as they become less marketable like last time. The owners have so many things they could say but have chosen not to, I hope the players aren't so blind that they are unable to see that and quickly learn to shut their yaps and twitter accounts when it comes to their opinions on this stuff.

Toews (and the others) are not going to accomplish a damn thing by addressing the media on this issue. He's only going to risk his popularity with the fans, few want to hear him complain (outside of trainwreck appeal).

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09-25-2012, 09:31 PM
  #63
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Really, complaining about Toews and other stars trying to help the union? The whole point is that it is a UNION, they are on the same side (more than I can say for the owners) and they are the most influential members of that union. Are people really going to care or is the public at large even going to know if Adam Burish or someone like that is the poster boy of the union? No, it's called doing what's best for the people on your side, he's not saying what he is to get more money for himself and the other stars, he's doing it so that the vast majority of non-stars in the league get a better shake.

Whether or not you agree with the players or owners, it's silly to say that Toews is doing a bad thing by sticking up for his union and fellow players.

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09-26-2012, 05:06 AM
  #64
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next meeting will be friday??


Don't miss hockey that much - now that the season in Germany has started and things look good for my team

Will see Christian Ehrhoff play on friday.

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09-26-2012, 10:01 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
Really, complaining about Toews and other stars trying to help the union? The whole point is that it is a UNION, they are on the same side (more than I can say for the owners) and they are the most influential members of that union. Are people really going to care or is the public at large even going to know if Adam Burish or someone like that is the poster boy of the union? No, it's called doing what's best for the people on your side, he's not saying what he is to get more money for himself and the other stars, he's doing it so that the vast majority of non-stars in the league get a better shake.

Whether or not you agree with the players or owners, it's silly to say that Toews is doing a bad thing by sticking up for his union and fellow players.
He's doing right by his group, but he's not helping his perception on the whole. He should take care of his own behind closed doors. He's not helping the union and he risks hurting his image (which many players have done the last few stoppages). They elect leadership to handle the media on these issues.

I'll continue to cringe every time a player speaks up with their biased perspective. The owners conceded the PR battle in my opinion, the players should shut up and walk away with it before they do any damage to themselves in terms of fan perception and marketability.

Here's one of Toews' quotes:
Quote:
“It’s frustrating that it got to this point to begin with. This should’ve been resolved a long time ago,” Jonathan Toews said. “Everyone’s frustrated. It’s an unnecessary position to be in. As players we’re doing what we have to do. We’ve done our part. We’re waiting for (the NHL) to do theirs.”
There are many parts of that quote that are either really tough to argue (meaning wrong to most people) or parts that are poorly worded (assuming he meant something different than what I took from it). Toews has some other quotes that he probably should have kept to himself. Whining isn't very marketable, and he's made a few useless whiny/argumentative public comments now.

There was no reason to say that stuff, frustrated or not, because many people will have a tough time buying all of his comments. No gain for Toews and no gain for the PA.

On the other hand, here's a more carefully worded Kaner quote:
Quote:
"You always want to be positive and hope for the best. Hopefully they can figure it out," Kane said. "It's tough saying the same things over and over. We all want to play hockey. Waiting's not fun, but it's really the only option we have right now."
Boring, vanilla, whatever. He responded and kept it a little more professional. I consider that the more likable and professional approach even if he's wiping with Bettman toilet paper and has a Daly fathead for a doormat...as long as we don't see those things.

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09-26-2012, 10:40 PM
  #66
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I'm sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about. Sports are such a public business that having public support on your side means a TON. Just look at the NFL refs situation. Sure people weren't pleased at the start but with a big incident and lots of attention the tables turned. The PA is hoping to do just that. Why should Toews just talk privately with his union members when it does nothing to advance their cause? Whether or not he's helping the public perception is a different debate but to say he shouldn't stick up for his union and do what they want of him (if you think he's doing this to better himself you're totally out of touch) is just plain wrong.

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09-26-2012, 10:43 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
I'm sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about. Sports are such a public business that having public support on your side means a TON. Just look at the NFL refs situation. Sure people weren't pleased at the start but with a big incident and lots of attention the tables turned. The PA is hoping to do just that. Why should Toews just talk privately with his union members when it does nothing to advance their cause? Whether or not he's helping the public perception is a different debate but to say he shouldn't stick up for his union and do what they want of him (if you think he's doing this to better himself you're totally out of touch) is just plain wrong.
No one was pleased except owners

And unlike NFL the NHL is not printing money. NHL wont cave in

Every offer will be worse ,, Fehr has has the idiots in NHLPA thinking they can win this fight when the reality is they wont

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09-26-2012, 11:02 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by hockeydoug View Post
I wish Toews would shut his mouth about the lockout already. I'm starting to worry that he buys into to too much of the crap coming out of the NHLPA.

I really want him to shut up. Let Montador or Frolik speak for the NHLPA on behalf of the Hawks instead.
I can't believe this statement. Our great leader, you all say, should just shut up and play.

Look man, there's real money out there in the balance. Why shouldn't Toews fight for every dollar for his side like he fights for every puck on the boards?

Leadership, as it impacts performance of the team, is not being a company stooge saying all the right things, it's having the guys with the skates believing in you. This is exactly the time when Toews should step up.

Remember the owners are locking out the players - the players are not striking. The lockout is over a deal the owners dictated, and since have seen a 50% increase in revenues.

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09-27-2012, 03:14 AM
  #69
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I agree. I want to see Toews sounding off about this team when it's warranted, not about the propaganda he is being fed by the latest player rep. It's called hard ball negotiating and we've seen it before from the owners ..... the players don't have a leg to stand on and the hole gets deeper with every passing week with no hockey.
Get bent.

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09-27-2012, 04:21 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by LarmerSavardSecord View Post
I can't believe this statement. Our great leader, you all say, should just shut up and play.

Look man, there's real money out there in the balance. Why shouldn't Toews fight for every dollar for his side like he fights for every puck on the boards?

Leadership, as it impacts performance of the team, is not being a company stooge saying all the right things, it's having the guys with the skates believing in you. This is exactly the time when Toews should step up.

Remember the owners are locking out the players - the players are not striking. The lockout is over a deal the owners dictated, and since have seen a 50% increase in revenues.
Agree completely. Props to young guys like Crosby, Toews and Backes stepping up for their side this lockout.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
No one was pleased except owners

And unlike NFL the NHL is not printing money. NHL wont cave in

Every offer will be worse ,, Fehr has has the idiots in NHLPA thinking they can win this fight when the reality is they wont
I agree that the cards are stacked against the players. But what do you suggest they do? Not fight and take whatever is offered to them by the owners?

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09-27-2012, 05:28 AM
  #71
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I would say they should start negotiating...

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09-27-2012, 09:59 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by LarmerSavardSecord View Post
I can't believe this statement. Our great leader, you all say, should just shut up and play.

Look man, there's real money out there in the balance. Why shouldn't Toews fight for every dollar for his side like he fights for every puck on the boards?

Leadership, as it impacts performance of the team, is not being a company stooge saying all the right things, it's having the guys with the skates believing in you. This is exactly the time when Toews should step up.

Remember the owners are locking out the players - the players are not striking. The lockout is over a deal the owners dictated, and since have seen a 50% increase in revenues.
On your last point, of course the players aren't striking. They've voted repeatedly for the escalators (driving costs/pay up) and extended the CBA when the owners said they weren't going to keep it. I can't blame one side more than the other, both made this mess over the course of more than 4 decades of mistakes.

As to the previous points, I'm not disagreeing with what he should do as a leader, I'm strongly disagreeing with HOW he went about doing it. Keep it behind closed doors because there is nothing to gain on the owners with a public statement, and there probably never was. The fight is in a board room, not in public for labor dispute. PR might have mattered a bit in 94', they learned that it didn't matter then. This fight doesn't project to other labor disputes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
I'm sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about. Sports are such a public business that having public support on your side means a TON. Just look at the NFL refs situation. Sure people weren't pleased at the start but with a big incident and lots of attention the tables turned. The PA is hoping to do just that. Why should Toews just talk privately with his union members when it does nothing to advance their cause? Whether or not he's helping the public perception is a different debate but to say he shouldn't stick up for his union and do what they want of him (if you think he's doing this to better himself you're totally out of touch) is just plain wrong.
I don't see how PR impacts any part of this negotiation since the owners already entrenched (probably 2 or more years ago) on the assumption that they wouldn't engage in a PR battle against the players. It's a very tough argument to project this dispute to a different sport and it's nothing close to NFL dispute with the refs, this is unique. The fans don't need "awareness", they're used to this already unlike most labor disputes in other sports.

What tangible benefit does Toews gain for the PA by making an argumentive and erroneous (or at best a terribly worded) rant against owners? Even if there is a gain, it's far less of a gain compared to the loss it could cause. This isn't 94' and all the fans already picked sides, or no side, in this one. The players can keep this in-house. Most of the media has favored the players side anyway, and Bettman hasn't been bashing the players.

I compare these frustrated rants to players complaining about the refs or ice in the 2nd period in the middle of a shift. What good does it do given the circumstances? Plenty of time to do that the previous 2 years or after the negotiation is complete, and you don't risk screwing stuff up for your side or yourself.

The owners have been ready and waiting for this for a long time and the PA sat on their hands for years. They should appreciate the calculated position of the owners and Fehr should do a better job advising his side to think before they speak in public since all it can do at this point is undermine their position and possibly create infighting.

My last point about Toews and why he shouldn't mouth off inflammatory comments is that he's in a unique circumstance himself.
He's young and on a big contract and that's an enviable position for the majority of the PA too. The players are not all in the same boat. More and more players will be thinking a little harder about that the next couple weeks. He has far less to lose than most of his union, and he can land a nice contract elsewhere where most don't have that as an option. I'm not so sure it's leadership rather than a personal rant. If the veteran non-star players are happy Toews is running his mouth a bit, then I really fear the players buy in to all this stuff too much and that we won't see hockey for a couple more months.

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09-27-2012, 10:14 AM
  #73
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I just frankly don't think you understand how the real world works.

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09-27-2012, 10:18 AM
  #74
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I'm beginning to miss hockey. This sucks, missing prospects during the preseason games.
I'm well beyond beginning to miss it.

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09-27-2012, 10:31 AM
  #75
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I'm well beyond beginning to miss it.
Same here. At least there's football. Maybe I'll watch the MLB playoffs

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