It's possible to compare teams from different eras. No team has ever had 20 players that were all the same age. That's why the ridiculous question makes no sense. It's a cheap ploy to make the past their prime Red Wings HoFers in their prime. It still wouldn't make their team better. Why? Because there are only so many minutes for all these guys also. You need role players. World Champs beat all star teams, because they are a real team. A young Lidstrom can't stop Gretzky and Messier in their primes. I've never seen a hockey historian say the 02 Wings were better than the 84 Oilers. Get real, guys.
It's possible to compare teams from different eras. No team has ever had 20 players that were all the same age. That's why the ridiculous question makes no sense. It's a cheap ploy to make the past their prime Red Wings HoFers in their prime. It still wouldn't make their team better. Why? Because there are only so many minutes for all these guys also. You need role players. World Champs beat all star teams, because they are a real team. A young Lidstrom can't stop Gretzky and Messier in their primes. I've never seen a hockey historian say the 02 Wings were better than the 84 Oilers. Get real, guys.
It's possible to compare teams from different eras. No team has ever had 20 players that were all the same age. That's why the ridiculous question makes no sense. It's a cheap ploy to make the past their prime Red Wings HoFers in their prime. It still wouldn't make their team better. Why? Because there are only so many minutes for all these guys also. You need role players. World Champs beat all star teams, because they are a real team. A young Lidstrom can't stop Gretzky and Messier in their primes. I've never seen a hockey historian say the 02 Wings were better than the 84 Oilers. Get real, guys.
Comparing teams from different eras is a hypothetical situation just as much as this is. You wanna talk about role players? The '02 Wings had the grind line, possibly one of the best lines of role players to ever play. But I think by "role players" what you actually mean is "worse players" because that's exactly what the Oilers have after their first two lines. And you talk about the '02 Wings like they were some all-star team that choked. They won the freakin' Cup, why are you suggesting they aren't a "real team?"
The '02 Wings, in their prime, is absolutely better than the Oilers. As they were at the time they won their respective Cups is absolutely debateable.
The Red Wings would have too many great two-way centres to be bothered with only matching Yzerman against Gretzky. I think it would make more sense to match Yzerman (with two big wingers like Shanny and McCarty) against the Messier line and force Messier to worry about defending and getting his face punched in if he got dirty or tried to intimidate Yzerman. Detroit would have the ability to match both Fedorov and Datsyuk against Gretzky and then have either a sniper like Hull, which would pretty much cancel out Kurri, or a checker like Draper on the right side.
You are severely underrating Krupp, Olausson and Duchesne. All were capable of moving the puck very well and playing very solid D. A prime Krupp (think '96 playoffs) and prime Duchesne would be a terrific 3rd pairing. Detroit would also have Slegr and Dandenault sitting on the sidelines as reserves so they would be deep too.
I'll leave the Oilers lineup to someone else but, again, I don't see any decent coach configuring the lines like this, especially when facing Gretzky. You don't counter Gretzky's line with an all offense line when you have both Fedorov and Datsyuk at your disposal. If Bowman is coaching this lineup he would find a way to get the most out of it and I don't think it would look anything like that.
The defense pairings don't make much sense either because you've got two LHS and two RHS players together. The two top pairings that did work in '02 were Lidstrom/Olausson and Fischer/Chelios to I'd venture to say those guys all at their absolute best would be just fine and then you have Duchesne/Krupp to deal with the Oilers 3rd or 4th lines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toob
You mean Edmonton's first line CENTER kills Detroit's. And 215 point Gretzky when he got those 215 points played with other Oilers in their prime including his winger, 2nd line center, and defenseman. He isn't getting much of a boost because he is 1) still playing with the same guys 2) those same guys were already in their prime. Compare with 155 point Yzerman scoring 155 with Gallant and Maclean and 40 point Chaisson on D and the huge upgrade he is getting with your lineup sandwiching him between Robitaille and Hull two guys who could score a ton without needing to take away from their centers possesion much...
when i said edmonton's first line kills detroit's, i didn't mean that gretzky's line would literally always be out against yzerman's line. i meant that gretzky's line, against whichever lines the imaginary wings play against them, would outperform yzerman's line against whichever lines the imaginary oilers play against them.
i get that yzerman plus hull plus robitaille looks pretty incredible on paper. but is it more incredible than the greatest offensive force ever put together (gretzky + kurri)? particularly when we know that those guys will have ridiculous chemistry?
on top of that, of course gretzky and kurri get a boost. you're trading semenko or tikkanen or whatever random LW sather put with them with kent nilsson, who scored 131 points (3rd in the league, ahead of peak bossy) on a flames team with relative scrubs.
if you can't see that, then we will have to agree to disagree.
re: the red wings' defense, even if i am indeed underrating duke, olausson, and krupp, the wings have literally nothing beyond the sixth defenseman. depth is important; it wins playoff series and cups. but i think you're underrating all those guys on the oilers.
on top of that, of course gretzky and kurri get a boost. you're trading semenko or tikkanen or whatever random LW sather put with them with kent nilsson, who scored 131 points (3rd in the league, ahead of peak bossy) on a flames team with relative scrubs.
No doubt that they would make beautiful plays when they had the puck. Unfortunately, with Gretzky and Nilsson on the same line I can't imagine them keeping the puck once it went anywhere near the corners. There's a reason those muckers were placed with Gretzky and Kurri.
Seems like the Oilers were all in their primes in 1984. The Wings seem like the better pick since they have the benefit of having two generations worth of stars in their primes at the same time, which is a major boost to an already power house team.
Goaltending wins you Stanley Cups. In a seven game series I don't know how you pick against Hasek. He'd likely give up no more than 2 goals a game. Maybe 3 if you're lucky.
re: the red wings' defense, even if i am indeed underrating duke, olausson, and krupp, the wings have literally nothing beyond the sixth defenseman. depth is important; it wins playoff series and cups. but i think you're underrating all those guys on the oilers.
Prime Lidstrom and Chelios would be even better than the Pronger/MacInnins duo in St. Louis, where they practically had at least one of those guys on the ice the entire game. Then you have 4 other guys (Olausson, Krupp, Duchesne, & Fischer) who could all log 20-25 minutes a game as well so depth would never be an issue even if you lost one of those defenseman to injury. You'd dress 6 dmen but could probably get away with only 5.
Since when are Slegr ('99 version) and Dandenault "nothing"? Bowman had Dandenault playing a limited 3rd pairing role with Duchesne in the '02 cup run so he's certainly good enough as a 7th or 8th depth dman. Same with prime Slegr.
On top of that, if you're counting on defenseman getting hurt then can I count on Coffey getting hurt cause then suddenly the Oilers are lacking that true offensive threat from the blueline.
Detroit appears to have an edge in goal, defense and forward depth as well. If coaching staffs are involved too then Detroit has the edge there as well IMO. The only hope for the Oilers is that the Gretzky and Messier lines overcome all of that and considering the two way forwards and defensive presence Detroit would have I don't see that as a given. The Red Wings would have tons of firepower up front too with prime Yzerman, Hull, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Larionov, Shanahan, Robitaille, etc.
If coaching staffs are involved too then Detroit has the edge there as well IMO.
That's not just your opinion. Bowman is the best coach the game ha ever known, successful pretty much everywhere he went. Unlike Sather.
Bottom lines:
Center -- advantage Oilers (when Gretzky is on the ice, advantage Wings when he isn't).
Wings -- advantage Wings.
Defense -- advantage Wings.
Goal -- advantage Wings.
Coaching -- advantage Wings.
Special teams -- advantage Wings.
System -- left-wing lock vs. run and gun. Advantage Wings.
Intangibles -- OK, I can go with Oilers and their incredible chemistry, although, as the Canucks and Avalanche series demonstrated, Wings could overcome adversity.
That's not just your opinion. Bowman is the best coach the game ha ever known, successful pretty much everywhere he went. Unlike Sather.
Bottom lines:
Center -- advantage Oilers (when Gretzky is on the ice, advantage Wings when he isn't).
Wings -- advantage Wings.
Defense -- advantage Wings.
Goal -- advantage Wings.
Coaching -- advantage Wings.
Special teams -- advantage Wings.
System -- left-wing lock vs. run and gun. Advantage Wings.
Intangibles -- OK, I can go with Oilers and their incredible chemistry, although, as the Canucks and Avalanche series demonstrated, Wings could overcome adversity.
Wings in 5
Playoff record: Oilers 15-4 (outscored opponents by 38 goals) Defeated 2 Canadian rivals (Flames/Jets), ended the Islanders dynasty forever and created the greatest NHL dynasty in history.
Wings 16-7 (outscored opponents by 25 goals), defeated rival Avs
The Oilers defeated stronger opponents more convincingly which says a lot. Advantage Oilers.
Messier/Semenko would take out 1/4 of the wings in the first two games. Advantage Oilers
Two greatest players ever to play hockey on same team (total points). Advantage Oilers
Success (measured by cups won). Advantage Oilers
Greatest team in NHL history - Advantage Oilers
An entire line of 50 goal scorers (one 87 goals) - Advantage Oilers
It's possible to compare teams from different eras. No team has ever had 20 players that were all the same age. That's why the ridiculous question makes no sense. It's a cheap ploy to make the past their prime Red Wings HoFers in their prime. It still wouldn't make their team better. Why? Because there are only so many minutes for all these guys also. You need role players. World Champs beat all star teams, because they are a real team. A young Lidstrom can't stop Gretzky and Messier in their primes. I've never seen a hockey historian say the 02 Wings were better than the 84 Oilers. Get real, guys.
Its a complete joke and its not even close to being up for debate.
That's not just your opinion. Bowman is the best coach the game ha ever known, successful pretty much everywhere he went. Unlike Sather.
Bottom lines:
Center -- advantage Oilers (when Gretzky is on the ice, advantage Wings when he isn't).
Wings -- advantage Wings.
Defense -- advantage Wings.
Goal -- advantage Wings.
Coaching -- advantage Wings.
Special teams -- advantage Wings.
System -- left-wing lock vs. run and gun. Advantage Wings.
Intangibles -- OK, I can go with Oilers and their incredible chemistry, although, as the Canucks and Avalanche series demonstrated, Wings could overcome adversity.
Wings in 5
I loathe Mark Messier so it pains me to say this, but at his prime he was a better hockey player than Yzerman (who's my favorite player), and better than Fedorov and Datsyuk too. There's a reason why Messier was selected for the '84 / '87 / '91 Canada Cups, while Yzerman wasn't.
So advantage Oilers if Bowman matches up Fedorov and/or Datsyuk against Gretz (they'd do well to just limit his damage, but no one could really stop him at his prime), and advantage Oilers if Messier plays against Stevie Y. Both Gretzky and Messier can and did log 25 minutes a night, so the Wings are left with an advantage at center (and wing) for whatever little part of the game remains, as obviously the Oilers weren't a very deep team
Can't argue with your other points. Coaching being the area in which I'd say Detroit has the greatest advantange. Wings in 6, maybe 5.
EDIT: Forgot that Yzerman was a spare part on the '84 CC team, after his rookie year; played in about half the games. Doesn't change my point.
Playoff record: Oilers 15-4 (outscored opponents by 38 goals) Defeated 2 Canadian rivals (Flames/Jets), ended the Islanders dynasty forever and created the greatest NHL dynasty in history.
Wings 16-7 (outscored opponents by 25 goals), defeated rival Avs
The Oilers defeated stronger opponents more convincingly which says a lot. Advantage Oilers.
Messier/Semenko would take out 1/4 of the wings in the first two games. Advantage Oilers
Two greatest players ever to play hockey on same team (total points). Advantage Oilers
Success (measured by cups won). Advantage Oilers
Greatest team in NHL history - Advantage Oilers
An entire line of 50 goal scorers (one 87 goals) - Advantage Oilers
The wings may have overcome the 2002 Canucks but the 1984 Oilers are not the 2002 Canucks.
5 games?
We are talking about a scenario where all the players are in their prime and some of the stuff you are saying is subjective or not even relevant. Goalie assists are about as meaningless of a stat as you can have lol Hasek>>>>>Fuhr so it doesn't even matter Wings in 5 for sure
Messier/Semenko would take out 1/4 of the wings in the first two games. Advantage Oilers
I think dressing Semenko would actually help Detroit. I'm disappointed that you're depending on Messier cheapshotting players to help his team win and I think he would be careful doing that because Shanahan, McCarty and Fischer would put a target on his face if he did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemskysGoodShoulder
An entire line of 50 goal scorers (one 87 goals) - Advantage Oilers
Meanwhile, the Red Wings would have the following:
Hull (peak of 86 goals)
Yzerman (peak of 65 goals)
Robitaille (peak of 63 goals)
Fedorov (peak of 56 goals)
Shanahan (peak of 52 goals)
...and of course two amazing playmakers in Larionov and Datsyuk.
Prime Lidstrom and Chelios would be even better than the Pronger/MacInnins duo in St. Louis, where they practically had at least one of those guys on the ice the entire game. Then you have 4 other guys (Olausson, Krupp, Duchesne, & Fischer) who could all log 20-25 minutes a game as well so depth would never be an issue even if you lost one of those defenseman to injury. You'd dress 6 dmen but could probably get away with only 5.
Since when are Slegr ('99 version) and Dandenault "nothing"? Bowman had Dandenault playing a limited 3rd pairing role with Duchesne in the '02 cup run so he's certainly good enough as a 7th or 8th depth dman. Same with prime Slegr.
On top of that, if you're counting on defenseman getting hurt then can I count on Coffey getting hurt cause then suddenly the Oilers are lacking that true offensive threat from the blueline.
Detroit appears to have an edge in goal, defense and forward depth as well. If coaching staffs are involved too then Detroit has the edge there as well IMO. The only hope for the Oilers is that the Gretzky and Messier lines overcome all of that and considering the two way forwards and defensive presence Detroit would have I don't see that as a given. The Red Wings would have tons of firepower up front too with prime Yzerman, Hull, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Larionov, Shanahan, Robitaille, etc.
in the context of this discussion, slegr and dandenault are indeed nothing. like how lee fogolin, who was a dependable NHLer in his day, also counts for nothing in the context of matching him up against the '02 wings all in their prime.
but it seems we will have to agree to disagree, on this and everything else.
Playoff record: Oilers 15-4 (outscored opponents by 38 goals) Defeated 2 Canadian rivals (Flames/Jets), ended the Islanders dynasty forever and created the greatest NHL dynasty in history.
Wings 16-7 (outscored opponents by 25 goals), defeated rival Avs
The Oilers defeated stronger opponents more convincingly which says a lot. Advantage Oilers.
Messier/Semenko would take out 1/4 of the wings in the first two games. Advantage Oilers
Two greatest players ever to play hockey on same team (total points). Advantage Oilers
Success (measured by cups won). Advantage Oilers
Greatest team in NHL history - Advantage Oilers
An entire line of 50 goal scorers (one 87 goals) - Advantage Oilers
The wings may have overcome the 2002 Canucks but the 1984 Oilers are not the 2002 Canucks.
5 games?
I think you need to re-read the original topic, the "players in their prime" part. I wonder if the Canadiens fans agree with "the greatest dynasty in history" sentiment. Fuhr's assists definitely make him a superior goaltender.
I loathe Mark Messier so it pains me to say this, but at his prime he was a better hockey player than Yzerman (who's my favorite player), and better than Fedorov and Datsyuk too. There's a reason why Messier was selected for the '84 / '87 / '91 Canada Cups, while Yzerman wasn't.
Yeah, and the reason was "Keenan was a jackass who liked role players" (Rochefort, Sutter, Patrick, etc.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Habs
So advantage Oilers if Bowman matches up Fedorov and/or Datsyuk against Gretz (they'd do well to just limit his damage, but no one could really stop him at his prime), and advantage Oilers if Messier plays against Stevie Y. Both Gretzky and Messier can and did log 25 minutes a night, so the Wings are left with an advantage at center (and wing) for whatever little part of the game remains, as obviously the Oilers weren't a very deep team
I don't think Messier was better than Yzerman. Yzerman was much better two-way forward. But, hey, for the sake of the argument, let's say you are right, and Messier was better. Are you still saying that Hunter-Messier-Anderson were better than Hull/Robitaille-Yzerman-Shanahan/McCarty? Don't make me laugh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Habs
Can't argue with your other points. Coaching being the area in which I'd say Detroit has the greatest advantange. Wings in 6, maybe 5.
Now we're talking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Habs
EDIT: Forgot that Yzerman was a spare part on the '84 CC team, after his rookie year; played in about half the games. Doesn't change my point.
I think dressing Semenko would actually help Detroit. I'm disappointed that you're depending on Messier cheapshotting players to help his team win and I think he would be careful doing that because Shanahan, McCarty and Fischer would put a target on his face if he did.
Meanwhile, the Red Wings would have the following:
Hull (peak of 86 goals)
Yzerman (peak of 65 goals)
Robitaille (peak of 63 goals)
Fedorov (peak of 56 goals)
Shanahan (peak of 52 goals)
...and of course two amazing playmakers in Larionov and Datsyuk.
I loathe Mark Messier so it pains me to say this, but at his prime he was a better hockey player than Yzerman (who's my favorite player), and better than Fedorov and Datsyuk too. There's a reason why Messier was selected for the '84 / '87 / '91 Canada Cups, while Yzerman wasn't.
So advantage Oilers if Bowman matches up Fedorov and/or Datsyuk against Gretz (they'd do well to just limit his damage, but no one could really stop him at his prime), and advantage Oilers if Messier plays against Stevie Y. Both Gretzky and Messier can and did log 25 minutes a night, so the Wings are left with an advantage at center (and wing) for whatever little part of the game remains, as obviously the Oilers weren't a very deep team
Can't argue with your other points. Coaching being the area in which I'd say Detroit has the greatest advantange. Wings in 6, maybe 5.
EDIT: Forgot that Yzerman was a spare part on the '84 CC team, after his rookie year; played in about half the games. Doesn't change my point.
Sentinel already mentioned the Keenan thing so basically Yzerman didnt play on a Keenan team but played/was invited to every other Team Canada from his rookie to his last year. Not to hard to find a good explanation.
Meanwhile, what is the reason that Messier wasnt selected for the 98 Olympics? Or 02? Or the 04 Wolrld Cup? If you are going to bring up age and all, Yzerman was selected for all those being almost as old and more worn down in 02 and 04. Plus he was even guaranteed a spot in 06 by Messier's good buddy Gretzky who didnt choose him for 02. On top of that, in the 89 WC why didnt Messier make the all star team unlike Yzerman?
Gretzky is Gretzky and nobody on the Wings be it forwards, D, goalie can match him but man i feel extremely good about having Yzerman or even prime Fedorov matched up 20/25/whatever minutes against Messier. Especially when you look at the wingers on top of it. This isnt simplistic like 215 vs 155 like somebody said because 215 was gotten with almost the same context that Gretzy is still getting in this poll whereas 155 was gotten with Gallant and Maclean and Steve Chaisson on D. And Messier is not getting as good wingers as Gretzky and probably plays less with Coffey so...
It's possible to compare teams from different eras. No team has ever had 20 players that were all the same age. That's why the ridiculous question makes no sense. It's a cheap ploy to make the past their prime Red Wings HoFers in their prime. It still wouldn't make their team better. Why? Because there are only so many minutes for all these guys also. You need role players. World Champs beat all star teams, because they are a real team. A young Lidstrom can't stop Gretzky and Messier in their primes. I've never seen a hockey historian say the 02 Wings were better than the 84 Oilers. Get real, guys.
Wings in 5 for sure
