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Tor/Flor - Tor/Van - Flor/Van

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Old
09-23-2012, 11:44 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter View Post
Well, it sure appears as though Florida fans love this trade proposal.

Listen, to say Luongo is a "step up" on Theodore is like saying Brodeur is a "step up" from Reimer. Come on. Luongo is light years ahead of Theo.

Van is going to wait until they get some value back from Theo - Kulikov obviously has value but not the same as Bjustad, Huberdeau etc - names Gillis originally asked for. Kulikov is despensible from Florida's stand point.

Why include TO in this deal? Because Theodore does NOT want to go to Vancouver -doesn't like their goalie coach. And Theo will not play back-up to Luongo. So a 3rd team is needed to land Theo - enter Toronto. He could play #1 minutes while Reimer hones his game as a 20+ game back up for one year.

Scrivens will be more than a capable back-up for Luongo in Florida and be trade bait next year when Markstrom comes in.

To say Florida loses this deal simply means you have less value for Luongo than most of the league has for him. Luongo is, hands down, the better goalie than anything Florida has at this moment!!
The problem is in 2 years Florida is where Vancouver is now having a top young goalie and a old goalie that is signed long term. It makes no sense for Florida to give up a piece of their defensive core for the next 10 years for a short term solution.

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09-23-2012, 11:48 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter View Post
Well, it sure appears as though Florida fans love this trade proposal.

Listen, to say Luongo is a "step up" on Theodore is like saying Brodeur is a "step up" from Reimer. Come on. Luongo is light years ahead of Theo.
Correction: Luongo *WAS* substantially better than Theodore (for the most part). Canucks fans seem to conveniently forget this when speaking of trading the guy, but Luongo's best years are behind him. He's in decline. If you'd like to look at last season, note that Luongo's stats were barely better than Theodore's despite the former playing on a much better team and seeing far fewer shots per game. We are not talking 2006 Luongo here. We are talking about a Luongo who is past his prime, who is getting older, who is on a bad contract, and who is being moved precisely because he is unreliable at important times.

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Kulikov is despensible from Florida's stand point.
For the purposes of your fantasy world in which this trade is a good idea for the Panthers, perhaps. In the real world, no.

Quote:
Luongo is, hands down, the better goalie than anything Florida has at this moment!!
Not by much. And, without the smallest smidgen of a doubt, he's not better by enough for Florida to consider trading away a prized prospect and a first-rounder for the guy.

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09-23-2012, 11:49 AM
  #28
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EDM is the latest team rumoured to have put down an offer for Lu. I think we've exhausted the proposals with TO and FLA anyway. Maybe EDM factors in somehow?


The givens here are that FLA doesn't need Lu, TO does but does not want to give up enough, and EDM is the latest rumoured. There's also that "mystery team" Botchford keeps referencing...? Might be best to discuss the latter two options rather than keep beating the dead horse (FLA/TOR).

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09-23-2012, 11:52 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Counter proposal-

To Florida: Luongo, Ashton, Raymond

To Toronto: Theodore

To Vancouver: Tor 2nd, Petrovic, Matthias, Fla 1st

Although I think we're better off not trading Luongo to Florida. They have the smallest need for him, we could probably do better elsewhere.
Actually not terrible... a definite improvement.

From Florida's perspective, Matthias and Raymond are likely close, as are Ashton & Petrovic. Whether they're prepared to do Theodore + their 1st for Luongo... I'll leave that for the Panther fans...

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09-23-2012, 11:56 AM
  #30
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Van does not play a defensive system like FLA does. This will skew numbers. Further, Lu has changed a significant amount of his style in the last year and a half due to Melonsen (sp?). He plays deeper in his net, and falls back on technique more now than he does athleticism.


These changes are difficult to make, but I've been impressed by how he has adapted to them. I feel that given more time under this same style Lu will only get better.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 09-23-2012 at 12:04 PM.
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Old
09-23-2012, 12:02 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Counter proposal-

To Florida: Luongo, Ashton, Raymond

To Toronto: Theodore

To Vancouver: Tor 2nd, Petrovic, Matthias, Fla 1st

Although I think we're better off not trading Luongo to Florida. They have the smallest need for him, we could probably do better elsewhere.

Take Matthias and Raymond out of your proposal and I do that deal. Van gets no help for the here and now, but some solid futures. Even if the 1st is late.


Thing is FLA fans will say no because they still lose a 1st and Petrovic for a player they don't want.

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09-23-2012, 12:13 PM
  #32
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This is brutal for Florida. OP, Luongo won't fetch anything close to a top young D like Kulikov+

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Old
09-23-2012, 12:13 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Van does not play a defensive system like FLA does. This will skew numbers. Further, Lu has changed a significant amount of his style in the last year and a half due to Melonsen (sp?). He plays deeper in his net, and falls back on technique more now than he does athleticism.


These changes are difficult to make, but I've been impressed by how he has adapted to them. I feel that given more time under this same style Lu will only get better.
Anecdotal stories are all well and good, but at the end of the day they can be painted either way. You say that Luongo's benefited from changing his style, I say it won't stop his performance from degrading. At the end of the day, you're only as right as I am.

So... we look at the numbers, and based solely on last year it's certainly close. If you average out the last few years than Luongo starts to distance himself, whether that distance justifies the incremental salary & commitment, and what the Panthers are prepared to part with... I'll leave up to their fans.

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09-23-2012, 12:43 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Anecdotal stories are all well and good, but at the end of the day they can be painted either way. You say that Luongo's benefited from changing his style, I say it won't stop his performance from degrading. At the end of the day, you're only as right as I am.

So... we look at the numbers, and based solely on last year it's certainly close. If you average out the last few years than Luongo starts to distance himself, whether that distance justifies the incremental salary & commitment, and what the Panthers are prepared to part with... I'll leave up to their fans.

Numbers are nothing without context. Nothing. What you are doing is taking a sample that benefits your argument. Where by your own admission, a larger sample would only increase the difference in Lu's favour. Now factor in that VAN plays a quick transition offensive style, and the disparity is greater than SV% alone conveys.



Style of play unequivocally affects this percentage. To say otherwise is folly. Actually, to say otherwise is to say defensive play is irrelevant, and that goaltending is the only true difference maker in the SV% and GAA stats. You're not saying that are you?

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Old
09-23-2012, 12:52 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by AwesomePanthers View Post
You dont give up the best player in the deal + 1st + a decent roster player for a player on a longterm contract that is declining. Florida gives up way too much, way way too much.
You're not though....

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09-23-2012, 12:57 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Correction: Luongo *WAS* substantially better than Theodore (for the most part). Canucks fans seem to conveniently forget this when speaking of trading the guy, but Luongo's best years are behind him. He's in decline. If you'd like to look at last season, note that Luongo's stats were barely better than Theodore's despite the former playing on a much better team and seeing far fewer shots per game. We are not talking 2006 Luongo here. We are talking about a Luongo who is past his prime, who is getting older, who is on a bad contract, and who is being moved precisely because he is unreliable at important times.
How has the gap between the 2 grown so small recently? Luongo has come off back 2 back Preisdents Trophies, SCF, Vezina Nom, William Jennings... Theodore has done what?

How is he in decline? How is he past his prime when this is the prime age for goalies? And I'm pretty sure he is being moved because with Scneider looking like he'll be a good starter Luongo has seen a chance to try & go back to Fla with his wife.... not because he is unreliable.


SOOOOOO much wrong in that post its hilarious.

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Old
09-23-2012, 01:02 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
So my question is... just what is the Panthers' willingness to pay for Luongo?

I'd assume the Canucks choice (possibly Theo's choice) of Clemmensen/Theodore would be on the starting point... but what's the best asset that the Panthers would include along with him?

Obviously Huberdeau isn't on the table.... but where is the breaking point? Is it Bjugstad? the first? Howden? Petrovic? Matheson? At what price would you be willing to let him go elsewhere?
Breaking point? Anything of real value for me. You are not getting any of those pieces you mentioned here. We are not gonna give up significant assets for a good goaltender with a terrible contract, when we got the best goalieprospect in the world waiting. We have no need for Lou, and most of us dont want him back. So its you the Nucks fans dreaming that keeps this subject alive.

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Old
09-23-2012, 01:03 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Numbers are nothing without context. Nothing. What you are doing is taking a sample that benefits your argument. Where by your own admission, a larger sample would only increase the difference in Lu's favour. Now factor in that VAN plays a quick transition offensive style, and the disparity is greater than SV% alone conveys.



Style of play unequivocally affects this percentage. To say otherwise is folly. Actually, to say otherwise is to say defensive play is irrelevant, and that goaltending is the only true difference maker in the SV% and GAA stats. You're not saying that are you?
Context is nothing without numbers. At the end of the day, the success of a change in approach is determined by numbers. Sure, Vancouver doesn't play a defensive style, but they're also a much better team than Florida.

In terms of sample selection, recency is of great importance, and on the most recent sample we have, they're very close. I'm not saying Theodore is as good as Luongo, but he's got a substantial contract working against him in the comparison.

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Old
09-23-2012, 01:04 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Peter View Post
Well, it sure appears as though Florida fans love this trade proposal.

Listen, to say Luongo is a "step up" on Theodore is like saying Brodeur is a "step up" from Reimer. Come on. Luongo is light years ahead of Theo.

Van is going to wait until they get some value back from Theo - Kulikov obviously has value but not the same as Bjustad, Huberdeau etc - names Gillis originally asked for. Kulikov is despensible from Florida's stand point.

Why include TO in this deal? Because Theodore does NOT want to go to Vancouver -doesn't like their goalie coach. And Theo will not play back-up to Luongo. So a 3rd team is needed to land Theo - enter Toronto. He could play #1 minutes while Reimer hones his game as a 20+ game back up for one year.

Scrivens will be more than a capable back-up for Luongo in Florida and be trade bait next year when Markstrom comes in.

To say Florida loses this deal simply means you have less value for Luongo than most of the league has for him. Luongo is, hands down, the better goalie than anything Florida has at this moment!!
You dont know what you are talking about. Kulikov is a beast, outstanding young defenseman, one of the best in the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeX4cavalier View Post
Luongo>>>Kulikov, but I agree Florida gets fleeced
Ye.. NO!

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Old
09-23-2012, 01:06 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Van does not play a defensive system like FLA does. This will skew numbers.
First, Florida does not play a defensive system. Second, the Canucks iced a substantially better team last season than the Panthers did.

Quote:
These changes are difficult to make, but I've been impressed by how he has adapted to them. I feel that given more time under this same style Lu will only get better.
Then you should be advocating that the Canucks keep him and trade Schneider instead.


Last edited by spiny norman: 09-23-2012 at 01:08 PM. Reason: added [QUOTE] to 2nd quoted part
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Old
09-23-2012, 01:07 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Take Matthias and Raymond out of your proposal and I do that deal. Van gets no help for the here and now, but some solid futures. Even if the 1st is late.


Thing is FLA fans will say no because they still lose a 1st and Petrovic for a player they don't want.
Petrovic and the 1st is absolute no goes. And if there is no season, who knows where that pick will be in a good draft. I value Petrovic as much as I value Bjugstad, he isnt going anywhere.

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09-23-2012, 01:08 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
You're not though....
We are.. and he doesnt come with ****** contract and declining career..

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09-23-2012, 01:11 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by AwesomePanthers View Post
Petrovic and the 1st is absolute no goes. And if there is no season, who knows where that pick will be in a good draft. I value Petrovic as much as I value Bjugstad, he isnt going anywhere.
I think you meant "over value" there

With the way I've seen Panther fans talk about their prospects why dont you guys just list all your prospects as "untouchables".


Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomePanthers View Post
We are.. and he doesnt come with ****** contract and declining career..
Sure you are

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09-23-2012, 01:17 PM
  #44
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Maybe the solution is simple as this...

To Vancouver: Carter Ashton, Toronto 2nd, Florida 2nd
To Florida: Luongo
To Toronto: Theodore

Vancouver gets the cap space they need, a prospect who can play right away, and some bargaining pieces to get immidiate help*. Florida gets Luongo back at minimal cost. Toronto gets a stop-gap goaltender to tandem with James Reimer.

The way I view it... Florida fans can, and should appreciate that Roberto Luongo is better than Jose Theodore (even with contracts considered), and give up a 2nd to reflect that. Markstrom is still a great unknown, and a few years away from challenging for a #1 role.

Toronto would likely prefer Theodore because they have James Reimer who's ready to play, so really only want a stop-gap solution. Vancouver's primary need is likely going to be cap space, and this deal allows them to get that plus some valuable bargaining chips.

*based on affordability and where the cap ends up

edit: Certainly a possibility to go further into what every team should want. Toronto sends Scrivens to Florida and the Panthers send Clemmensen to Vancouver. Panthers get a relatively young goalie who can backup right away and put some pressure on Markstrom, Vancouver gets a backup so they're not trying to win a cup with less than 100 NHL games between their goaltenders.


Last edited by seanlinden: 09-23-2012 at 01:38 PM.
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Old
09-23-2012, 01:20 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
I think you meant "over value" there

With the way I've seen Panther fans talk about their prospects why dont you guys just list all your prospects as "untouchables".

Sure you are
Yeah, basically. We have worked hard for those assets, and then toss them away on players that barely helps us short-term. If you think thats wise, then you would make a terrible GM.

We are fine with what we got, and dont need or want Lou. So please go bother the other teams that are "rumored" to have "interest" in Lou. Good luck with that.

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09-23-2012, 01:28 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
How has the gap between the 2 grown so small recently? Luongo has come off back 2 back Preisdents Trophies, SCF, Vezina Nom, William Jennings... Theodore has done what?

How is he in decline? How is he past his prime when this is the prime age for goalies? And I'm pretty sure he is being moved because with Scneider looking like he'll be a good starter Luongo has seen a chance to try & go back to Fla with his wife.... not because he is unreliable.


SOOOOOO much wrong in that post its hilarious.
Theodore has a Vezina and a Hart.

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09-23-2012, 01:29 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by AwesomePanthers View Post
Yeah, basically. We have worked hard for those assets, and then toss them away on players that barely helps us short-term. If you think thats wise, then you would make a terrible GM.

We are fine with what we got, and dont need or want Lou. So please go bother the other teams that are "rumored" to have "interest" in Lou. Good luck with that.
Oh have you now? Like how Edmonton has "worked hard" to acquire their 3 1st overalls? The only thing that was worked hard in sucking to get high draft picks is an already small fan base's loyalty.

Depends... are you talking down one player to make your point? Isn't a GM's job to make a competitive team? A Team that wins more games then it loses? Does Luongo on the Panthers make them more or less competitive? Does he give them better or worse chances to win games?


I understand that you may not want Luongo but if you don't want to read all this & are feeling bothered why not just leave the thread? You don't have to be here, especially now that you know what the topic will revolve around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intense Rage View Post
Theodore has a Vezina and a Hart.
How many years ago was that? How many teams ago was that? Is Theodore still anywhere near that level?

The Luongo now is a lot closer the the Luongo of 2006 then the Theodore of now is to the Hart/Vezina Winning Theodore of a DECADE ago. And if you noticed my list of accomplishments are all within the past 2 years.

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09-23-2012, 01:33 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
How many years ago was that? How many teams ago was that? Is Theodore still anywhere near that level?

The Luongo now is a lot closer the the Luongo of 2006 then the Theodore of now is to the Hart/Vezina Winning Theodore of a DECADE ago.
Who cares? You asked what Theo has done and I told you, he has some shiny hardware that Luongo will never get his hands on.

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09-23-2012, 01:36 PM
  #49
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Is should be clear by now: Florida need Luongo as much as you need a new vacuum cleaner from an Electrolux door to door salesman.

Good luck making the sales!

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09-23-2012, 01:38 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
EDM is the latest team rumoured to have put down an offer for Lu. I think we've exhausted the proposals with TO and FLA anyway. Maybe EDM factors in somehow?
Source or is it another Canuck fan from twitter?

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