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NHLPA trying to stop lockout vote in Alberta, Ontario, Quebec

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Old
09-21-2012, 07:00 PM
  #276
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by rockinghorse View Post
A question about how this gets applied. The players in Quebec and Alberta who have their home team in those provinces? How about players that call Quebec and Alberta their home province?

Would it include players that would have played a game according to the schedule in those provinces? For example Carolina scheduled to play Montreal Oct 3rd. Would the Carolina players be entitled to payment?
Theoretically, it should be their location of employment.

One could argue that because they can be traded, they are transient employees in any location.
If the players are local-based employees, who are considered traveling employees for road games, then they should be subject to local labour laws. If the players are employed in the NHLPA's jurisdiction of certification (Ontario/New York), and considered traveling / temporary employees for all games, then they'd be subject to New York / Ontario labour laws.

One could argue that because they can be traded, they are transient employees in every location... hence subject to whatever the PA declares the "home base".

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09-22-2012, 01:39 AM
  #277
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http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...rly-next-week/

Alberta labour board not expected to make their ruling until "early next week"

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09-22-2012, 03:08 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Well **** me, Quebec is closer to France than I thought. That makes EU-burecrauts look fast.
They ruled out on banning the lockout the hearing is about the NHLPA asking for accreditation in Quebec.

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09-22-2012, 06:49 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
They ruled out on banning the lockout the hearing is about the NHLPA asking for accreditation in Quebec.
So the court already made a ruling about the lockout in Quebec?

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09-22-2012, 07:46 AM
  #280
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What an epic waste of time by the PA. Do they think they will get public support for this nonsense.

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09-22-2012, 08:15 AM
  #281
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What an epic waste of time by the PA. Do they think they will get public support for this nonsense.
They have mine. No different than the NHL offering 43%. Just another way to put pressure on the owners. I like the NHLPA negotiating style.

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09-22-2012, 08:56 AM
  #282
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What an epic waste of time by the PA. Do they think they will get public support for this nonsense.
They also have my support. Labour laws are in place for a reason. I don't care if you are a millionaire or earn minimum wage. I look forward to the ruling either way.

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http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...general-strike

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09-22-2012, 09:05 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
They have mine. No different than the NHL offering 43%. Just another way to put pressure on the owners. I like the NHLPA negotiating style.
Their negotiating style??? So far it has mostly consisted of doing didly squat.

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09-22-2012, 09:38 AM
  #284
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If they win, they wouldn't be eligible to collectively bargain as a whole union because once again the union's argument is that they are separate entities.

It seems Fehr is just waiting for a reason to disband the PA.

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09-22-2012, 09:43 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
Their negotiating style??? So far it has mostly consisted of doing didly squat.
Clock is ticking pressure is mounting, they've relinquished very little. You don't think that is negotiating?

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09-22-2012, 09:53 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Clock is ticking pressure is mounting, they've relinquished very little. You don't think that is negotiating?
Of course, and I'm sure the owners are going to cave anytime because of this unusal tactic the PA is using. If you don't remember they tried the "holdout" technique before and it's really the only card they hold....unfortunatly the owners will call their bluff and I'm sure the owners will win the "holdout" game if it comes to it. How many players are ready to throw away another season and prob end up with a worse offer then they could have had if they actually would have negotiated.

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09-22-2012, 10:02 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
Of course, and I'm sure the owners are going to cave anytime because of this unusal tactic the PA is using. If you don't remember they tried the "holdout" technique before and it's really the only card they hold....unfortunatly the owners will call their bluff and I'm sure the owners will win the "holdout" game if it comes to it. How many players are ready to throw away another season and prob end up with a worse offer then they could have had if they actually would have negotiated.
As someone said earlier the union is broken, the players will have a free market. Salaries will soar, because we know the owners can't contain themselves. The only guy that gets hurt is the minimum wage guy, in that case the league has to compete against europe for the bottom rung players. So they won't be playing for 200,00 a season.

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09-22-2012, 10:09 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
As someone said earlier the union is broken, the players will have a free market. Salaries will soar, because we know the owners can't contain themselves. The only guy that gets hurt is the minimum wage guy, in that case the league has to compete against europe for the bottom rung players. So they won't be playing for 200,00 a season.
I'm not sure where you got all this but the Union is not broken so all of what you said is meaningless. But having 700 players have to go through this and not splinter won't be easy, the money they lose during a lockout will never be made up no matter what percentage they get. The longer this goes on the harder it will be to keep the players inline.

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09-22-2012, 10:15 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
I'm not sure where you got all this but the Union is not broken so all of what you said is meaningless. But having 700 players have to go through this and not splinter won't be easy, the money they lose during a lockout will never be made up no matter what percentage they get. The longer this goes on the harder it will be to keep the players inline.
Sometimes workers fight for the next generation, to create a better environment for the future. It happens all the time. People always have said, during a work stoppage you'll never get the money back. Maybe so but we leave the job a better paying place for the next guy. and so on and so on. By broken I mean the union will be better off decertifying and eventually that may happen.

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09-22-2012, 11:13 AM
  #290
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Our history is filled with unions and employees who have made personal sacrifices that didnt benefit them, but helped the future. Although it's hard to see how the nhlpa benefits will translate to anyone else. Other than perhaps giving some of those hard line union bashing billionaires a dose of humility.

But the argument that the owners can always win, so players should just always give up and they will be better off, while technically true, does not seem a sound business strategy. And the NHLPA is a business.

I would imagine that there wont be any rulings until there is actually a game missed and so something non hypothetical to rule on. If it was ruled the owners had to attempt some sort of mediation effort, with a modicum of sincerity, before they were allowed to lock out the players, that might mean moving the arguments out of the arena of political propaganda into one of legal briefs. Which would surely make this board a lively place.

If just a few teams in Canada were entitled to the entire 57% of the money the owners are making during the lockout, that could be just enough to break Bettmans alleged very narrow hold on the 8 teams he needs to carry on with the lockout too. But it really seems hard to believe that the owners would be undone by such a ruling. It does sort of seem a distraction.

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09-22-2012, 11:43 AM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
They ruled out on banning the lockout the hearing is about the NHLPA asking for accreditation in Quebec.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
So the court already made a ruling about the lockout in Quebec?
The only province things are a "done deal" is Ontario.

Alberta - had hearing, waiting to hear ruling.

Quebec - preliminary hearing last week, did not impose "emergency" injunction against league to prevent lockout; full hearing scheduled for 10/15. Nothing has been decided if the NHL "illegally" locked out the players. Nor has the NHLPA been declared an union or a non-union. And it's not a court (of law) but a labour board.

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09-22-2012, 07:50 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
If just a few teams in Canada were entitled to the entire 57% of the money the owners are making during the lockout...
The 57% figure is from the expired CBA. THERE IS CURRENTLY NO CBA. It's simple contract law. The old CBA allowed either party to end it with appropriate notice. The NHL filed the required filing. The old CBA is dead.

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09-23-2012, 12:44 PM
  #293
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Regardless of how the board rules I find it very sad that the NHL feels it is above the law.
For Daly to say that because the league operates in 30 cities....23 of which are in the US the NHL operates under US federal laws and is not subject to any local laws.

Imagine.....so I have a business....open operations in 30 cities...23 in Canada & 7 in the US.
I then tell all states I am not subject to their laws because 23 of my operations are in Canada?
Huge corporations....from around the globe set up operations in various states, provinces, countries etc and they are all subject to the laws yet the NHL feels it is above this?
Peter Gall (NHL lawyer) stated that the Alberta Labour Board has no authority to issue a binding ruling on any matter pertaining to the NHL and or the NHLPA. Never have, never will...
To the shock of Gall, Daly and their team, Mark Asbell (Labour chair) advised them that was not the case as years ago he himself was on the board when they ruled on such a case. (The Grant Fuhr case re endorsements)
The shock on the faces of Daly, Gall etc was incredible.

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09-23-2012, 02:40 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by leoleo3535 View Post
Regardless of how the board rules I find it very sad that the NHL feels it is above the law.
For Daly to say that because the league operates in 30 cities....23 of which are in the US the NHL operates under US federal laws and is not subject to any local laws.

Imagine.....so I have a business....open operations in 30 cities...23 in Canada & 7 in the US.
I then tell all states I am not subject to their laws because 23 of my operations are in Canada?
Huge corporations....from around the globe set up operations in various states, provinces, countries etc and they are all subject to the laws yet the NHL feels it is above this?
Peter Gall (NHL lawyer) stated that the Alberta Labour Board has no authority to issue a binding ruling on any matter pertaining to the NHL and or the NHLPA. Never have, never will...
To the shock of Gall, Daly and their team, Mark Asbell (Labour chair) advised them that was not the case as years ago he himself was on the board when they ruled on such a case. (The Grant Fuhr case re endorsements)
The shock on the faces of Daly, Gall etc was incredible.
I can imagine especially if they really think that the Alberta Labour Board is without authority but find that this is not the case. I'm taking it that you saw their faces or is there Youtube?

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09-23-2012, 02:45 PM
  #295
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by leoleo3535 View Post
Regardless of how the board rules I find it very sad that the NHL feels it is above the law.
For Daly to say that because the league operates in 30 cities....23 of which are in the US the NHL operates under US federal laws and is not subject to any local laws.

Imagine.....so I have a business....open operations in 30 cities...23 in Canada & 7 in the US.
I then tell all states I am not subject to their laws because 23 of my operations are in Canada?
Huge corporations....from around the globe set up operations in various states, provinces, countries etc and they are all subject to the laws yet the NHL feels it is above this?
Peter Gall (NHL lawyer) stated that the Alberta Labour Board has no authority to issue a binding ruling on any matter pertaining to the NHL and or the NHLPA. Never have, never will...
To the shock of Gall, Daly and their team, Mark Asbell (Labour chair) advised them that was not the case as years ago he himself was on the board when they ruled on such a case. (The Grant Fuhr case re endorsements)
The shock on the faces of Daly, Gall etc was incredible.
Here's a question... how do NHL players pay income tax?

Let's say you play for Vancouver, meaning you play 41 games in BC, 6 in Alberta, 1 in Manitoba, 2 in Ontario, 1 in Quebec, and 37 in the United States. Is 100% of your income taxed in BC? or is 100% of your income taxed in New York / Ontario because that's where the union is based / certified? Or are you taxed proportional to where you play your games?

The answer to this would help determine what employment laws apply to what employees. If everything is taxed in BC, then BC's labour laws would certainly apply. If everything is taxed in Ontario/NY, then those labour laws would apply. However, if players are taxed proportionate to where they do their work, then the province of Alberta could certainly declare it illegal to lock out any players who would've played in Alberta this year.

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09-23-2012, 03:11 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Here's a question... how do NHL players pay income tax?

Let's say you play for Vancouver, meaning you play 41 games in BC, 6 in Alberta, 1 in Manitoba, 2 in Ontario, 1 in Quebec, and 37 in the United States. Is 100% of your income taxed in BC? or is 100% of your income taxed in New York / Ontario because that's where the union is based / certified? Or are you taxed proportional to where you play your games?

The answer to this would help determine what employment laws apply to what employees. If everything is taxed in BC, then BC's labour laws would certainly apply. If everything is taxed in Ontario/NY, then those labour laws would apply. However, if players are taxed proportionate to where they do their work, then the province of Alberta could certainly declare it illegal to lock out any players who would've played in Alberta this year.
Players pay Federal, State/Provincial, and local income takes (if any) on their entire earnings based on the city they play in.

In addition, they have to pay non-resident income taxes ("Jock taxes") on income earned during away games - based on a patchwork of state and provincial tax laws - however, in general, they get to take tax deductions on their federal taxes for state/local taxes paid and tax credits on state taxes for state/local taxes paid to other jurisdictions.

Time do drag this out again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Would I be correct in guessing that NHL players are treated the same as other major professional atheletes (and entertainers)--being taxed by most of the road jurisdictions that they play in and filing a dozen+ different tax returns?
Yup.

The CA Franchise Tax Board taxes visiting players (at a top rate of 9.3%) based on 1/82 of their NHL salary for every game played in San Jose, LA, or Anaheim.

Most other states (with state income taxes) do the same.

I would be very surprised if Provincial tax authorities didn't do the same.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...an-cometh.html

Quote:
Of course, players are subject to withholding tax like the rest of us but an NHL player's paystub does not include just one line for tax withheld. In fact, players are responsible for paying tax in every state (and some cities) in which they play and earn above a certain income threshold. It is not uncommon for a player to file a dozen or more tax returns a year.

One player whose file I was working on recently and is currently with the St. Louis Blues had to file all the following returns in 2006: United States and Canadian Federal, States of Arizona, North Carolina, Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio, California, Colorado, New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, Pennsylvania and the City of St. Louis.

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09-23-2012, 05:00 PM
  #297
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Players pay Federal, State/Provincial, and local income takes (if any) on their entire earnings based on the city they play in.

In addition, they have to pay non-resident income taxes ("Jock taxes") on income earned during away games - based on a patchwork of state and provincial tax laws - however, in general, they get to take tax deductions on their federal taxes for state/local taxes paid and tax credits on state taxes for state/local taxes paid to other jurisdictions.

Time do drag this out again:
Interesting... that would certainly suggest that these provinces do have the ability to declare the lockout illegal for all players who would play games in their jurisdiction.

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09-23-2012, 05:16 PM
  #298
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This isn't the first organization to do business across borders. Isn't there something in the old CBA which set of labor laws apply?

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09-23-2012, 06:48 PM
  #299
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I can imagine especially if they really think that the Alberta Labour Board is without authority but find that this is not the case. I'm taking it that you saw their faces or is there Youtube?
I attended 9 plus hours of the meeting.

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10-02-2012, 10:44 AM
  #300
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SportsnetSpec 7:17am via Web Still no ruling by Alta Labour Relations re: NHLPA grievance. Expected early this week.

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