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Old
09-23-2012, 02:01 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I'm surprised this is still being discussed. I'm glad some leafs fans posted and mentioned how ridiculous this proposal is for toronto.
Its ridiculous because you know nothing about Schneider. In 2 years time, you'll understand how good he is.

If Vancouver is dumb enough to trade him, they should wait until he has proven himself. Then you'll understand why trading a top goalie in his prime for an overpaid defencemen is a bad idea.

Luongo is the best goalie Vancouver has ever seen, and right away he completely changed the team. I still remember his first season how invincible he seemed, since we were used to such **** goaltending. Schneider has now proven that he is a better goaltender, not just in the eyes of some fans, but in managements mind as well. Considering Luongo has a lifetime contract given out by THE SAME MANAGEMENT, it tells you how high they are on this kid.

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09-23-2012, 02:03 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I'm surprised this is still being discussed. I'm glad some leafs fans posted and mentioned how ridiculous this proposal is for toronto.
I agree with this, Phaneuf gets a lot of hatred around the league but he is still a #1 defenseman. Schneider is not worth Phaneuf.

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09-23-2012, 02:43 PM
  #128
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Its ridiculous because you know nothing about Schneider. In 2 years time, you'll understand how good he is.

If Vancouver is dumb enough to trade him, they should wait until he has proven himself. Then you'll understand why trading a top goalie in his prime for an overpaid defencemen is a bad idea.

Luongo is the best goalie Vancouver has ever seen, and right away he completely changed the team. I still remember his first season how invincible he seemed, since we were used to such **** goaltending. Schneider has now proven that he is a better goaltender, not just in the eyes of some fans, but in managements mind as well. Considering Luongo has a lifetime contract given out by THE SAME MANAGEMENT, it tells you how high they are on this kid.
Make the offer in 2 years time because in the present it's crap for toronto. Simple really?

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09-23-2012, 02:50 PM
  #129
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Make the offer in 2 years time because in the present it's crap for toronto. Simple really?
There have been quite a few Leafs fans saying yes.

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09-23-2012, 02:55 PM
  #130
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There have been quite a few Leafs fans saying yes.
And quite a few saying no.

If burke did this he'd be forced to resign. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

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09-23-2012, 02:58 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
And quite a few saying no.

If burke did this he'd be forced to resign. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
If Burke doesn't get a goalie, he may have to resign anyways.

And all the players involved are unlikely to be moved anyways.

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09-23-2012, 02:59 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
There have been quite a few Leafs fans saying yes.
And there are quite a few saying no.

There are also people like me and Lyrical Lyricist who are not fans of the team but realize that giving up your #1 defenseman and having no one even remotely close to replacing his production is probably not such a good idea.

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09-23-2012, 03:00 PM
  #133
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no @ Phaneuf

not happening

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09-23-2012, 03:09 PM
  #134
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If Burke doesn't get a goalie, he may have to resign anyways.

And all the players involved are unlikely to be moved anyways.
Uh no, if you give up your #1 D-man, captain and get an unproven starter(mind you, with high upside) you deserve to be fired asap and send to a mental institution.

Reality is, Proven>unproven. Goalie market sucks. Trading captain=/ Good PR. Finally, he believes in Reimer, getting Schneider would be the most backwards idea ever based on how he's been talking about Reimer. I'm not drinking the kool-aid here, I know Schneider>Reimer but burke probably doesn't see the difference worth Phaneuf.

Think about it. There's 2 scenarios if this deal goes down:

Schneider doesn't end up a top 10 #1 G. Leafs lose.

Schneider ends up a top 10 #1G. Leafs lose.

Wait, how do leafs loose on 2nd one?

Well, in terms of who can play in a line-up, if Schneider becomes like quick, price, etc... and plays 65-70 GP per season then we can say the leafs basically did the following:

Phaneuf
Reimer

for

Schneider

You know, only 1 G can play...


Besides the fact I consider Phaneuf>Schneider, pushing Reimer down the chart makes zero sense. Not to mention the backlash, hole at D and redundant unproven goaltending.

It makes zero sense for Toronto. Swing it however you like, they have Reimer and the difference isn't worth phaneuf including or excluding that fact.

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Originally Posted by Intense Rage View Post
And there are quite a few saying no.

There are also people like me and Lyrical Lyricist who are not fans of the team but realize that giving up your #1 defenseman and having no one even remotely close to replacing his production is probably not such a good idea.
Not to mention for a guy who apparently has "upside at 26" while phaneuf is "out of his prime soon" at 27. It's lunacy.

I wonder if Cedrick Desjardins can land the habs Kesler or something. You see those numbers last year, 2 GP .968 save %. small sample size? who cares!

If I were leafs I wouldn't even trade phaneuf for rask and he's twice as proven.

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09-23-2012, 04:14 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Uh no, if you give up your #1 D-man, captain and get an unproven starter(mind you, with high upside) you deserve to be fired asap and send to a mental institution.

Reality is, Proven>unproven. Goalie market sucks. Trading captain=/ Good PR. Finally, he believes in Reimer, getting Schneider would be the most backwards idea ever based on how he's been talking about Reimer. I'm not drinking the kool-aid here, I know Schneider>Reimer but burke probably doesn't see the difference worth Phaneuf.

Think about it. There's 2 scenarios if this deal goes down:

Schneider doesn't end up a top 10 #1 G. Leafs lose.

Schneider ends up a top 10 #1G. Leafs lose.

Wait, how do leafs loose on 2nd one?

Well, in terms of who can play in a line-up, if Schneider becomes like quick, price, etc... and plays 65-70 GP per season then we can say the leafs basically did the following:

Phaneuf
Reimer

for

Schneider

You know, only 1 G can play...


Besides the fact I consider Phaneuf>Schneider, pushing Reimer down the chart makes zero sense. Not to mention the backlash, hole at D and redundant unproven goaltending.

It makes zero sense for Toronto. Swing it however you like, they have Reimer and the difference isn't worth phaneuf including or excluding that fact.
Just because Burke said he believes in Reimer(probably posturing for a Luongo trade) doesn't mean Leafs fans do. If Schneider ends up playing as well as he has the past two years, then I think the Leafs wouldn't look back from this trade. If he only puts up .920 sv%, well, it was still worth it.

Quote:
Not to mention for a guy who apparently has "upside at 26" while phaneuf is "out of his prime soon" at 27. It's lunacy.

I wonder if Cedrick Desjardins can land the habs Kesler or something. You see those numbers last year, 2 GP .968 save %. small sample size? who cares!

If I were leafs I wouldn't even trade phaneuf for rask and he's twice as proven.
Goalies peak and age later than skaters.

Schneider has played for two seasons behind one of the top goalies in the NHL. it's not his fault he can't get more icee time, but with what he's been given he has stil made a huge impression. Look, there are some that like the trade and some that don't There's no need to blast and say "awful for the Leafs" "Burke should be fired" etc.

Is there risk involved with Schneider? Yes. The question is, is it a risk worth taking? I think most people would be willing to take that risk if they were in desperate need of a goaltender, have some young stud defensemen in the system, and shed some cap space.

Sure Burke may never do this trade in real life. In real life Gillis isn't trading Schneider, and Tarasenko isn't moving from St. Louis. My goal was to propose a deal that all of us arm-chair GMs felt would make us a better team.

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09-23-2012, 04:24 PM
  #136
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Burke isn't desperate yet, but if he was and he needed a starting goalie pronto, I could see him doing the Phaneuf trade.

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09-23-2012, 04:25 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Not to mention for a guy who apparently has "upside at 26" while phaneuf is "out of his prime soon" at 27. It's lunacy.

I wonder if Cedrick Desjardins can land the habs Kesler or something. You see those numbers last year, 2 GP .968 save %. small sample size? who cares!

If I were leafs I wouldn't even trade phaneuf for rask and he's twice as proven.
I agree saying phaneuf is "out of his prime soon" is idiotic... however not as idiotic as the bolded

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09-23-2012, 04:28 PM
  #138
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I agree saying phaneuf is "out of his prime soon" is idiotic... however not as idiotic as the bolded
FTR I never said he's leaving his prime soon, I said he will just be leaving his as Rielly, Gardiner, Blacker, Finn, Percy, etc all hit theirs.

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09-23-2012, 04:36 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Just because Burke said he believes in Reimer(probably posturing for a Luongo trade) doesn't mean Leafs fans do. If Schneider ends up playing as well as he has the past two years, then I think the Leafs wouldn't look back from this trade. If he only puts up .920 sv%, well, it was still worth it..
It's not worth it because Reimer put up .921 in his rookie year. I'd imagine they feel he can do it again. Funny enough, Reimer has more regular season games played too.

Don't get me wrong, Schneider is clearly superior to Reimer but Schneider is worth Kulemin or something, not Phaneuf. The fact leafs has a decent young goalie themselves(granted, not as good) makes the trade even weirder in terms of value to toronto. They don't improve their team, that simple.

Quote:
Goalies peak and age later than skaters.

Schneider has played for two seasons behind one of the top goalies in the NHL. it's not his fault he can't get more icee time, but with what he's been given he has stil made a huge impression. Look, there are some that like the trade and some that don't There's no need to blast and say "awful for the Leafs" "Burke should be fired" etc.

Is there risk involved with Schneider? Yes. The question is, is it a risk worth taking? I think most people would be willing to take that risk if they were in desperate need of a goaltender, have some young stud defensemen in the system, and shed some cap space.

Sure Burke may never do this trade in real life. In real life Gillis isn't trading Schneider, and Tarasenko isn't moving from St. Louis. My goal was to propose a deal that all of us arm-chair GMs felt would make us a better team.
You're missing the point. If I have to choose between paying for Bobrovsky and handing out a few average picks(at best) or giving up my #1 D-man for Schneider. Answer is easy. I choose Bobrovksy every time. I inquire about Bernier, etc..

The fact Schneider got 4 mil per and is unproven is not a good thing either. He may be well worth it but it's a risk that leafs or any other team don't need to take.

In terms of straight up armchair value the difference between a guy like bernier, bobrovsky and other young goalies isn't the difference between a 2nd and 2 4th rounders and phaneuf. It's just too much to ask for. If you ask for Kulemin and a mid pick, even a 2nd if leafs are desperate, sure. Just not phaneuf, it's too much.

I'm sorry if I say "burke should be fired" but he should. It does not improve the team and pushes another decent young goalie back for no reason. It's poor asset management and it's a pointless trade. Say what you will about gardiner and reilly but they aren't at phaneuf's level and they don't play the game he does. Not to mention trading the face of the 'truculence' model would be another reason why Burke is going backwards.

You keep ignoring Reimer's existence. Leafs are not in desperate need of a Schneider, they have their own young goalie. They are in desperate need of a guy like Luongo for 2-3 years. They need a legit proven #1 or it's pointless for them. They'll take their chances with Reimer quite easily as the value is not there.

Seriously, I'm a habs fan. I'm supposed to de-value Phaneuf and Reimer and even then I think it's not worth it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not like the rest of the board that hates the canucks. I actually wanted them to win over Boston. However...this just doesn't make sense to me. We can argue all day about it and I mean no disrespect but it's not close. IF phaneuf had to be traded think Kesler IMO.

BTW, why do you keep saying goalies peak later? D also peak later. It's forwards who peak early and none of the two is a forward.

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09-23-2012, 04:37 PM
  #140
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I agree saying phaneuf is "out of his prime soon" is idiotic... however not as idiotic as the bolded
Really now? I don't suppose that was the intent.

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09-23-2012, 04:48 PM
  #141
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Really now? I don't suppose that was the intent.
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09-23-2012, 04:52 PM
  #142
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It's not worth it because Reimer put up .921 in his rookie year. I'd imagine they feel he can do it again. Funny enough, Reimer has more regular season games played too.

Don't get me wrong, Schneider is clearly superior to Reimer but Schneider is worth Kulemin or something, not Phaneuf. The fact leafs has a decent young goalie themselves(granted, not as good) makes the trade even weirder in terms of value to toronto. They don't improve their team, that simple.



You're missing the point. If I have to choose between paying for Bobrovsky and handing out a few average picks(at best) or giving up my #1 D-man for Schneider. Answer is easy. I choose Bobrovksy every time. I inquire about Bernier, etc..

The fact Schneider got 4 mil per and is unproven is not a good thing either. He may be well worth it but it's a risk that leafs or any other team don't need to take.

In terms of straight up armchair value the difference between a guy like bernier, bobrovsky and other young goalies isn't the difference between a 2nd and 2 4th rounders and phaneuf. It's just too much to ask for. If you ask for Kulemin and a mid pick, even a 2nd if leafs are desperate, sure. Just not phaneuf, it's too much.

I'm sorry if I say "burke should be fired" but he should. It does not improve the team and pushes another decent young goalie back for no reason. It's poor asset management and it's a pointless trade. Say what you will about gardiner and reilly but they aren't at phaneuf's level and they don't play the game he does. Not to mention trading the face of the 'truculence' model would be another reason why Burke is going backwards.

You keep ignoring Reimer's existence. Leafs are not in desperate need of a Schneider, they have their own young goalie. They are in desperate need of a guy like Luongo for 2-3 years. They need a legit proven #1 or it's pointless for them. They'll take their chances with Reimer quite easily as the value is not there.

Seriously, I'm a habs fan. I'm supposed to de-value Phaneuf and Reimer and even then I think it's not worth it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not like the rest of the board that hates the canucks. I actually wanted them to win over Boston. However...this just doesn't make sense to me. We can argue all day about it and I mean no disrespect but it's not close. IF phaneuf had to be traded think Kesler IMO.

BTW, why do you keep saying goalies peak later? D also peak later. It's forwards who peak early and none of the two is a forward.
Well, I guess it depends on if you have faith in Reimer or not. And the difference between Schneider and Bobrovsky/Bernier/whoever is a lot bigger than you make it out to be. Look at their stats, or watch them play and it's clear they are not in the same stratosphere. Fair value isn't a tweener forward though, that's absurd. Tarasenko hasn't played a single game in the NHL, is his value also Kulemin? When you want to acquire a player, you also pay for their potential. If the Leafs could either give up Rielly of Phaneuf for Schneider, who would they choose? Probably the one that's younger, cheaper, and has more potential.

And I'm pretty sure I recall reading that peak age for defensemen is 29, and goalies are 32.

EDIT: Here's the post I read:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
I must admit my information on this goes back a few years and of course such a study is subjective and statistical rather than individual specific. The information I saw at the time was

NHL forwards began enter into their prime years around age 26
NHL defensemen began to enter into their prime years around age 29
NHL goalies began to enter into their prime years around age 32

For the most part forwards averaged 3 years before they started to decline. Offensive defensemen and goalies stayed at their peak for an average of 5 years.
Defensive defensemen, goons and any player that fought alot or whose role included a lot of body checking only generally lasted 2 years after entering prime and they also declined much more rapidly than the others.

Since I first saw that information, the physical fitness of players has dratically improved so it is likely all players could reach their prime sooner, but the same physical fitness would likely extend the players prime years

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09-23-2012, 05:18 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Well, I guess it depends on if you have faith in Reimer or not. And the difference between Schneider and Bobrovsky/Bernier/whoever is a lot bigger than you make it out to be. Look at their stats, or watch them play and it's clear they are not in the same stratosphere. Fair value isn't a tweener forward though, that's absurd. Tarasenko hasn't played a single game in the NHL, is his value also Kulemin? When you want to acquire a player, you also pay for their potential. If the Leafs could either give up Rielly of Phaneuf for Schneider, who would they choose? Probably the one that's younger, cheaper, and has more potential.

And I'm pretty sure I recall reading that peak age for defensemen is 29, and goalies are 32.

EDIT: Here's the post I read:
The difference is large but Schneider's value is probably less than halak's was when he got traded. You know, he did fairly well in playoffs and all. At best, it's equal, i'll give you that. Halak got a top 9 forward with upside and a marginal prospect. Kulemin actually hit 30 goals before, I don't expect 30 but hes not a tweener, he's a solid top 9 guy, with top 6 potential if he regains even 20 goal form. You forget I also added a 2nd.

As for the post, I don't see the evidence and if it includes old nhl or new nhl.

I'll ask you a simple question, just answer that and we'll see the reality.

Suppose Luongo and Schneider retire/career injury. Just for the sake of discussion all you have left is Lack and need another #1. Price is available at the right price, which roster player does Vancouver offer?

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09-23-2012, 05:24 PM
  #144
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The difference is large but Schneider's value is probably less than halak's was when he got traded. You know, he did fairly well in playoffs and all. At best, it's equal, i'll give you that. Halak got a top 9 forward with upside and a marginal prospect. Kulemin actually hit 30 goals before, I don't expect 30 but hes not a tweener, he's a solid top 9 guy, with top 6 potential if he regains even 20 goal form. You forget I also added a 2nd.

As for the post, I don't see the evidence and if it includes old nhl or new nhl.

I'll ask you a simple question, just answer that and we'll see the reality.

Suppose Luongo and Schneider retire/career injury. Just for the sake of discussion all you have left is Lack and need another #1. Price is available at the right price, which roster player does Vancouver offer?
I would offer Edler for Price, if Lack isn't up to the job.

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09-23-2012, 05:31 PM
  #145
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I would offer Edler for Price, if Lack isn't up to the job.
Edler isn't signed. You'd have to pick it up.

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09-23-2012, 05:35 PM
  #146
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Edler isn't signed. You'd have to pick it up.
Well, hypothetically if he were signed, I'd offer him. We'd take the loss the same way if he were signed or not, though.

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