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Patrick Kane and his value

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Old
09-23-2012, 06:55 PM
  #76
Chris Hansen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryU View Post
The difference between Kane & Toews is easy to see, especially if you've watched all their games...Kane doesn't score, whaddya got?
Toews doesn't score, "whaddya got?" Right, Manny Malhotra. Awesome, that makes him way better than Kane.

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09-23-2012, 07:26 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Kane isn't better than Toews, although the ultimate difference between the two is pretty negligible and this is coming from someone who has watched every game of both of their careers.
The difference offensively is negligible. The difference overall is not. I have also watched nearly every game each has played in the NHL and there is absolutely no doubt who the better player is.

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09-23-2012, 07:30 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Toews doesn't score, "whaddya got?" Right, Manny Malhotra. Awesome, that makes him way better than Kane.
When Toews doesn't score you still have a Selke caliber centerman who is the undisputed leader of his team. When Kane doesn't score you have a small winger who is adequate defensively. Bit of a difference.

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09-23-2012, 08:22 PM
  #79
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The difference offensively between Toews and Kane is not negligible. Kane has an obvious advantage. It's not all about points... do people really not know this? Still?

Defensive play remains as laughably overrated as ever.

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09-23-2012, 08:49 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
The difference offensively between Toews and Kane is not negligible. Kane has an obvious advantage. It's not all about points... do people really not know this? Still?

Defensive play remains as laughably overrated as ever.
Toews has progressed in his offensive game year to year to where he is almost a PPG player along with a selke calibre defense and arguably the best faceoff center in the game. And lets not forget he's the captain of a Stanley Cup winning team.

Kane hasn't improved his offense to a great deal (he came in awesome) which leaves his around a PPG player. His defense has improved but at best can only be considered average at this point. Kane has a much higher ceiling offensively but it still remains to be seen if he will every reach that. He shows flashes, but he needs to consistently be above a PPG to offset the extra hockey play that Toews brings to the Hawks.

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09-23-2012, 09:42 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by topnotch View Post

he needs to consistently be above a PPG to offset the extra hockey play that Toews brings to the Hawks.
In the playoffs, he is over a PPG.

Before this year, he was always roughly a PPG.

And he's always the Hawks most dangerous threat in the offensive zone. Toews, Hossa, Sharp, and especially 2010 playoff Byfuglien have all hugely benefitted from playing with someone as gifted at manipulating opposing defenses and making plays as Patrick Kane.

It's usually forgotten that at the start of last season, Toews was having a hard time scoring without Kane on his wing, while Kane (as a center) and Hossa were lighting the lamp almost every time they touched the puck.


Last edited by Sevanston: 09-23-2012 at 10:04 PM.
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09-23-2012, 09:42 PM
  #82
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Patrick Kane to Calgary for Matt Stajan, Mikael Backlund, and Roman Cervenka.

Calgary plays the year with lines that have 3 wingers and no centers, automatically conceding all faceoffs to the opposing team.

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09-23-2012, 09:44 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
The difference offensively between Toews and Kane is not negligible. Kane has an obvious advantage. It's not all about points... do people really not know this? Still?

Defensive play remains as laughably overrated as ever.
You are right, offense is not all about points. Driving to the net, protecting the puck, winning battles in the corners and faceoffs all matter when it comes to offence and Toews is significantly better at all of those things than Kane. If you are arguing that Kane at his absolute best offensively is better than Toews, then I agree with you completely. But when you look at everything together: points, chances, consistently etc... the difference between the two, at least over the past 2 seasons, has been negligible.

When every other part of the game, as overrated as you may think it is, comes into play there is no doubt who the better player is.

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Old
09-24-2012, 01:31 AM
  #84
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Toews is good but has quickly become one of if not the most overrated players in the game.

Both Kane and Toews make each other better.

In the clutch though i am taking Kane, no question.

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09-24-2012, 01:35 AM
  #85
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Kane is very clearly a superior offensive player to Toews and Toews is a better defensive player to Kane.

The treatment Kane gets really is unfair just because he is American and his private life isn't so private.

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09-24-2012, 01:35 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Toews is good but has quickly become one of if not the most overrated players in the game.

Both Kane and Toews make each other better.

In the clutch though i am taking Kane, no question.
Kane's the only reason the Hawks didn't get swept by the Coyotes in the playoffs.

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09-24-2012, 05:18 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Patrick Kane to Calgary for Matt Stajan, Mikael Backlund, and Roman Cervenka.

Calgary plays the year with lines that have 3 wingers and no centers, automatically conceding all faceoffs to the opposing team.
we take on a bad contract that offers us nothing, a young guy that we have already on our roster with guys like Krüger & Pirri and the great czech Cervenka out of the KHL

easy to pass on this. CGY has nothing to offer for Kane that CHI would accept

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09-24-2012, 09:04 AM
  #88
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Toews is clearly better than Kane, it isn't even close.

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Old
09-24-2012, 09:29 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DontToewzMeBro View Post
Here we have Kane, a player with excellent puck skills and vision,he has amassed 369 points in 399 games and is great in the playoffs adding 52 points so far in 51 games.

After wrist problems he had an off year with only 66 points, and on this site it seems his value has plummeted big time.

Size has never been an issue for Kane, always producing even in the playoffs.

Value wise I'm curious what do you feel he is worth?
I don't care what HF says, the masses on here have no idea how to determine proper value. Kane is just as valuable now as he has ever been, if you ask me. Because of his age and stats up to this point, any team trading for him would trade for him at the rate of a young PPG player. For that reason, I don't see him moved. As a Vancouver fan, I'd love him here, although I don't see it happening.

My offer for Kane would be...

Schneider - Young #1 goalie, whether he's "proven" or not is up for debate, but he'd have to be ther centerpiece as he's our most valuable asset.
Jensen - Regarded as our top prospect by many, could potentially make the team this year.
Hansen - I feel as if CHI would ask for him. He could step into CHI's top 6, or essentially play anywhere in the line-up. He has a steal of a cap hit for what he brings, an asset to any contender.

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Old
09-24-2012, 09:31 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Kane is very clearly a superior offensive player to Toews and Toews is a better defensive player to Kane.

The treatment Kane gets really is unfair just because he is American and his private life isn't so private.
Nailed it.

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Old
09-24-2012, 10:55 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Kane is very clearly a superior offensive player to Toews and Toews is a better defensive player to Kane.

The treatment Kane gets really is unfair just because he is American and his private life isn't so private.
Agree. Patrick Kane has become ridiculously underrated around here.

People use defense way to often to explain why a player isn't putting up better numbers. Defense is important, don't get my wrong, but the point of a first line player is to score and bring offense. Kane does that better than most players in the NHL.

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09-24-2012, 11:13 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Agree. Patrick Kane has become ridiculously underrated around here.

People use defense way to often to explain why a player isn't putting up better numbers. Defense is important, don't get my wrong, but the point of a first line player is to score and bring offense. Kane does that better than most players in the NHL.
Their last 2 seasons:

Kane: 139 point in 155 games

Toews: 133 points in 139 games

Your point would be valid if Kane scored significantly more points than Toews and people were still saying that they are similar offensively. But, over the past 2 seasons, Toews has actually scored at a higher pace than Kane, while being much better in every other part of the game.

Its actually ironic because on the main boards there is often this perception that Toews is extrememly overrated, and yet I feel that among Hawks fans he is actually underrated, especially when compared to Kane. It was a popular opinion on the Hawks' board that Kane was every bit as valuable as Toews, that has changed somewhat after last season, but as you can see from this thread there are still certain fans that believe that is the case. I don't know if it is an American vs Canadian thing or what, but I have always found that many Hawks fans actually don't give Toews enough credit.

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09-24-2012, 11:16 AM
  #93
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It is not that Hawk fans don't give Toews enough credit, Chelios. It's that they do not give Kane enough.

Not a zero-sum game. Toews is a fantastic player. So is Kane.

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09-24-2012, 11:20 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
It is not that Hawk fans don't give Toews enough credit, Chelios. It's that they do not give Kane enough.

Not a zero-sum game. Toews is a fantastic player. So is Kane.
Bingo.

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09-24-2012, 11:21 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Their last 2 seasons:

Kane: 139 point in 155 games

Toews: 133 points in 139 games

Your point would be valid if Kane scored significantly more points than Toews and people were still saying that they are similar offensively. But, over the past 2 seasons, Toews has actually scored at a higher pace than Kane, while being much better in every other part of the game.

Its actually ironic because on the main boards there is often this perception that Toews is extrememly overrated, and yet I feel that among Hawks fans he is actually underrated, especially when compared to Kane. It was a popular opinion on the Hawks' board that Kane was every bit as valuable as Toews, that has changed somewhat after last season, but as you can see from this thread there are still certain fans that believe that is the case. I don't know if it is an American vs Canadian thing or what, but I have always found that many Hawks fans actually don't give Toews enough credit.
I never said Toews was a bad player. But Kane is still an elite player and when his offense is on, I'll take it pretty easily over Toews'. I've already said in this thread that I think Toews is more valuable than Kane (just by the mere fact that Toews is a center, so that's pretty easy IMO).

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09-24-2012, 11:59 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
I never said Toews was a bad player. But Kane is still an elite player and when his offense is on, I'll take it pretty easily over Toews'. I've already said in this thread that I think Toews is more valuable than Kane (just by the mere fact that Toews is a center, so that's pretty easy IMO).
Ok, but what happens when his offense is 'off'? What else did he bring to the table besides 66 points last season? Toews brings many valuable attributes (on top of his scoring) to the ice. Two-way play, PK, face-offs, etc.. And now some of you fans are saying this part of a players game is "overrated"????? Sorry folks, thats where we disagree. Those kind of players win Championships. I'll hitch my wagon to the Toews, Bergeron's, Datsyuk's of the world, over the finesse perimiter players such as Kessel, P.Kane.

It takes all types of players to build a winning team, but to say that the defensive aspect of a players game is "overrated" is ridiculous.

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09-24-2012, 12:07 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Ok, but what happens when his offense is 'off'? What else did he bring to the table besides 66 points last season? Toews brings many valuable attributes (on top of his scoring) to the ice. Two-way play, PK, face-offs, etc.. And now some of you fans are saying this part of a players game is "overrated"????? Sorry folks, thats where we disagree. Those kind of players win Championships. I'll hitch my wagon to the Toews, Bergeron's, Datsyuk's of the world, over the finesse perimiter players such as Kessel, P.Kane.

It takes all types of players to build a winning team, but to say that the defensive aspect of a players game is "overrated" is ridiculous.
I don't know, Patrick Kane did a pretty good job last season when Toews was out, despite playing out of position.

And BTW, Chicago probably doesn't win without Kane, no matter what people want to say.

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09-24-2012, 12:15 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Ok, but what happens when his offense is 'off'? What else did he bring to the table besides 66 points last season? Toews brings many valuable attributes (on top of his scoring) to the ice. Two-way play, PK, face-offs, etc.. And now some of you fans are saying this part of a players game is "overrated"????? Sorry folks, thats where we disagree. Those kind of players win Championships. I'll hitch my wagon to the Toews, Bergeron's, Datsyuk's of the world, over the finesse perimiter players such as Kessel, P.Kane.

It takes all types of players to build a winning team, but to say that the defensive aspect of a players game is "overrated" is ridiculous.
This is what I am getting at. When Kane is "On" he may be one of the best offensive players in the league. If we are talking about absolute peak offensively than I agree Kane is better offensively than Toews. But if you look at a larger sample size and look at what they bring offensively over a large amount of games, the difference is negligible. If Kane can find a way to bring his absolute best over a full season, and then over several seasons in a row, than I will be more than happy to say he is better offensively than Toews. But that simply has not happened. And for all Kane's flash, Toews has produced virtually the same offence over their careers thus far.

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09-24-2012, 12:16 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
I don't know, Patrick Kane did a pretty good job last season when Toews was out, despite playing out of position.

And BTW, Chicago probably doesn't win without Kane, no matter what people want to say.
Agreed. They both compliment each other very well and you need both of those types of players if you want to succeed. However, Toews is the more valuable player by far.

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09-24-2012, 12:17 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
It is not that Hawk fans don't give Toews enough credit, Chelios. It's that they do not give Kane enough.

Not a zero-sum game. Toews is a fantastic player. So is Kane.
I agree that on the main boards Kane does not get enough credit, while Toews gets plenty. But I feel it is the opposite within the Hawks' fan base. To have a significant number of Hawks fans still insist that Kane is just as good, or just as valuable to his team than Toews just illustrates that point.

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