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Elite Players signing for league minimum?

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Old
09-23-2012, 08:50 PM
  #1
FlyingBuffalo26
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Elite Players signing for league minimum?

I have a simple question that came to my mind a few days ago and I can't seem to find an answer...

Is it theoretically possible to sign a UFA Player (lets take Semin or Doan this year as example) to league minimum or close to it? Let's just say Doan has the desire to greatly increase his chances to win the Stanley Cup with the few remaining years - at least effective ones - in his career that he decides to sign with LA or any other contender which is close to cap ceiling for 1M.

Wouldn't this be somekind of circumventing the cap if you sign like 2 or 3 players who are willing to take massive paycuts in order to achieve their ultimate goal, having in mind that many already made enough money through their former contracts, sponsorship, etc.

I am actually really curious if this ever happened and surprised that it doesn't happen much more often.

Well I think that's it, you can delete ofc if its an inappropiate question, just wanted to know
THanks

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09-23-2012, 08:58 PM
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haterbehatin
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Its highly unlikely although theoretically possible. One thing to keep in mind is that the NHLPA would be very unhappy to see elite players set the market so low like this. There have however been rare examples of players signing for below their market value. for example when Selanne and Kariya signed with the avalance Kariya took a massive pay cut from what he made the year before. Although he did this so that he could be a UFA the following year when his contract expired.

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09-23-2012, 09:03 PM
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nhlfan9191
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Nabokov wasn't elie but he signed a league minimum contract with Detroit.

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Old
09-23-2012, 09:05 PM
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Vankiller Whale
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If I were 35+ and a superstar near the end of my career, I would probably do it, if the team I most wanted to go to really needed the cap space.

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09-23-2012, 09:06 PM
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TrueGrit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haterbehatin View Post
Its highly unlikely although theoretically possible. One thing to keep in mind is that the NHLPA would be very unhappy to see elite players set the market so low like this. There have however been rare examples of players signing for below their market value. for example when Selanne and Kariya signed with the avalance Kariya took a massive pay cut from what he made the year before. Although he did this so that he could be a UFA the following year when his contract expired.
That's right. Kariya turned down $10 million I believe for $2 million. Kariya and Selanne went on to have their most disappointing seasons of their career to which some have called it bad karma for trying to stack the deck.

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09-23-2012, 09:16 PM
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Grant
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It's possible, but other GMs and agents hate it.

If a player signs for a small amount. Now other GMs hate it because that team just got a huge steal making them more competitive than they should be since they have the extra cap space for other players. Agents also hate it because it deflates the value of other players. You mentioned Semin and Doan so I will use that. Say Semin signed a 1 year 3m contract instead. Phoenix can now say to Doan's agent 'look, Semin just signed for 3m and you are not as offensive as him. Since we like your complete game and intangibles, we are willing to go as high as 3.5m'.

Theoretically possible, but it just causes a lot of trouble and problems for those not involved.

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Old
09-23-2012, 09:23 PM
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RandV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGrit View Post
That's right. Kariya turned down $10 million I believe for $2 million. Kariya and Selanne went on to have their most disappointing seasons of their career to which some have called it bad karma for trying to stack the deck.
And personally I'm glad it failed so badly. It's like some sort of borderline cheating and/or poor sportsmanship. If this were to happen it would obviously be on one of the contenders, who already have a big enough advantage over that you'd have to wonder why they'd need such a huge freebie?

It's one thing if a star player leaves a million on the table to resign with his team, that lets them sign a slightly better depth player. It would be another altogether if someone like Getzlaf and Perry decided they really want to win a Cup next year, so sign for a million each with a team like Pittsburgh.

In my opinion any Stanley Cup win under this situation would be extremely tainted. It should also be noted that in the Kariya/Colorado situation, part of the reason Kariya accepted so little was so that the Avs could pay Selanne even more. Since Kariya was just coming off a multi-year $10m salary, while Selanne hadn't faired quite so well. Colorado got a discount for sure, but you gotta look at by what they paid for the pair, not just Kariya by himself.

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Old
09-23-2012, 09:31 PM
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FlyingBuffalo26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
It's possible, but other GMs and agents hate it.
......

Theoretically possible, but it just causes a lot of trouble and problems for those not involved.
I completly get your point. It simply seems like an ass-move from a player towards his "co-workers".

Anyways, I think it should be more tempting and occure more often as the ocassions you all mentioned. Let's say a Crosby, who we all know will stay a Penguin for his lifetime if nothing substantial to ownership or his personal environment happens. He earned more than enough for a few lifetimes and can still earn more than enough through endorsment deals.
If you play the game you love and additionally earned a massive amount of money doing it you should think (or at least I'd do so) which are the best chances to get that trophy as often as you can and play with the best players around you.

Well, would be less competitive to watch, but at the same nice to see some players with heart who are not led by their money greed.

Thanks for all the answers

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Old
09-23-2012, 09:51 PM
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im surprised it doesn't happen

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Old
09-23-2012, 09:57 PM
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Ched Brosky
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didn't Selanne take 2M from the Avs and Kariya took 5M after both earned 8M+ the year before from their previous teams?

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09-23-2012, 10:22 PM
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Vokoun

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Old
09-23-2012, 10:23 PM
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re: Kariya,

He was due a $10m qualifying offer. GM Bryan Murray was operating within a $40m payroll. So he didn't make the offer, and instead tried to work something out with Kariya. Kariya refused, and agreed with Selanne to approach the Avs and try to win the Cup. Kariya got something like $1.7m.

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09-23-2012, 10:25 PM
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Kariya and Selanne signed for a total of $7MM....$1.2MM for Kariya and $5.8MM for Selanne. As mentioned Kariya wanted to be a UFA at season's end, and signing at that low number allowed him to fall under the category of being a 10 year vet making under the league average salary.

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Old
09-23-2012, 10:27 PM
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pdd
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Also, it's not cap circumvention if a player chooses to sign for a certain amount. It's cap circumvention if you do something that "gets around" the salary cap.

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09-23-2012, 11:40 PM
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The NHLPA doesn't care. No matter what they're taking home x% of the revenues of the league. If Crosby was making $1m, that would just be $7.7m more that gets distributed to the other players.

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Old
09-23-2012, 11:55 PM
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seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
Vokoun
This..

It obviously doesn't happen all the time, but there's nothing preventing a team from player from doing it. It's not circumvention if a guy decides he only wants to be paid $1m, it's only circumvention if that comes with some other outside promise to be paid on the side or something like that.

However, as mentioned, the PA isn't a huge fan of it. Everyone wants to increase their market value, and having star players sign for peanuts paints the guys who go for full market value in a negative light.

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09-24-2012, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
The NHLPA doesn't care. No matter what they're taking home x% of the revenues of the league. If Crosby was making $1m, that would just be $7.7m more that gets distributed to the other players.
NHLPA does matter. They use contract comparisons all the time. They want players to utilize UFA and get as much cash as they can so the next guy can. Players receive phone calls from NHLPA representatives if they talk about home town discounts publicly. You can't just say the NHLPA doesn't care about players utilizing UFA status, it is what is there for. Generally people are greedy, and you can not blame them. Maximize the amount of money you can make while playing the sport you grew up loving.

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09-24-2012, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
NHLPA does matter. They use contract comparisons all the time. They want players to utilize UFA and get as much cash as they can so the next guy can. Players receive phone calls from NHLPA representatives if they talk about home town discounts publicly. You can't just say the NHLPA doesn't care about players utilizing UFA status, it is what is there for. Generally people are greedy, and you can not blame them. Maximize the amount of money you can make while playing the sport you grew up loving.
Is that the old NHL or the new? The thing with player comparison is there's usually a variety of different players to choose for a comparison, and no agent is going to let GM is going to stick to a low salary outlier to set the price tag. After Skinner signed his contract it's not like Edmonton was going to hold Eberle to what Giroux is making.

Also, setting the high mark for the benefit of all was far more important without the cap. When one player sets the high mark it says 'this is the current going rate for this caliber of player'. GM's would try to hold the line but each time a player/agent was able to bump it up just a little more it could have a trickle down effect on all salaries.

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Old
09-24-2012, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
It's possible, but other GMs and agents hate it.

If a player signs for a small amount. Now other GMs hate it because that team just got a huge steal making them more competitive than they should be since they have the extra cap space for other players. Agents also hate it because it deflates the value of other players. You mentioned Semin and Doan so I will use that. Say Semin signed a 1 year 3m contract instead. Phoenix can now say to Doan's agent 'look, Semin just signed for 3m and you are not as offensive as him. Since we like your complete game and intangibles, we are willing to go as high as 3.5m'.

Theoretically possible, but it just causes a lot of trouble and problems for those not involved.
And Doan's agent would simply say "That is clearly an EXCEPTION." Then he would hang up and call a team that is willing to pay bigger dollars.

Elite players signing for league minimum would NOT HAVE AN EFFECT on other elite players' contracts. Now, comparable players signing for SLIGHTLY DISCOUNTED contracts do.

For example, if Enstrom is worth 6.5 million dollars but signs for 5.75, then that can be used as a comparable for Edler, who might want to sign for 6.25 million, but could be brought down to 6 or 5.75 due to Enstrom's contract.

If Suter signed for 3m and Gillis suggested to Edler that he take a 3.5m contract, Edler's agent would laugh.


In essence, exceptions have no influence.


However, I believe other GMs would be pissed. I don't think the NHLPA would be happy about it either though, considering that something like that occurring gives a team a very unfair advantage. Also, collusion is a huge concern. If Suter signs a 1m contract in New York for 1 year and then signs a 100m, 8 year contract, that would be very, very suspicious.

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Old
09-24-2012, 01:35 AM
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bluemandan
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Kariya, Vokun, Hossa

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09-24-2012, 01:37 AM
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It's good if its my team, terrible if its another.

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09-24-2012, 01:54 AM
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It's weird how fans sometimes criticize the players for making so much money when they're just playing a game.

But then you have threads like these, where the fans turn around and criticize for not making enough money. It's silly.

That said, I think the hardest part would be selling it to your agent. and, well, your wife.

"Hi, honey. I just signed a contract for about 10% of what I earned last year! *Click* Honey? Are you still there?"

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09-24-2012, 02:46 AM
  #23
I Hate Chris Butler
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It's not circumvention. Yeah, it's unfair that Detroit got Hossa cheap or Washington got Vokoun cheap, but players aren't assigned a designated value. The NHL can't tell a player "you're not allowed to sign a contract worth less than 4 million a year."

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Old
09-24-2012, 04:29 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Kariya, Vokun, Hossa
$7.4m for a season isn't exactly a discount. And for what mileage the Wings got out of him in the postseason, he wasn't worth it.

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09-24-2012, 09:33 AM
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Actually the relevant party is the NHLPA.

When Lemieux returned the last time he wanted to play for the minimum to help the penguins out but in the end settled on 5 mil (roughly) so the NHLPA would not blame him for hurting the market for other players or for taking down the league salary average.

That being said I do not recall a peep out of the NHLPA when the duck brothers went to Colorado.

So in short, there is no rule against it but for unionized workers it go's against the best interests of the collective.

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