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Old
09-23-2012, 04:45 PM
  #201
stlblues9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chayos View Post
There is no way STL trades Pietrangelo for any return that isn't going to destroy the other franchise.

Yakupov could turn into a great player, but even if he turns into Kovalchuk would you trade Pietrangelo for Kovalchuk? I sure wouldn't.

Number one d-men of his caliber only come around once in a while and when you get one you keep him for his career.

The blues need a blue chip forward but they won't move Pietrangelo to get one.


BTW I am an oiler fan and even I can see why this idea is sillyness.

The oilers need to draft the d-men they need to fill in with or Sign one as a UFA(good luck with lightning stiking twice though!)
.
Taransenko.

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Old
09-23-2012, 06:18 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by trublu16 View Post
On one hand it is great to hear from other fans of other franchises to speak of the value of our #1 defense man. That gives me more personal validation when I say that Petro is top 3 D-man in the NHL easily. With only Weber & Chara being better, but not by much.

You ask and head coach in the NHL if they would want a #1 d-man over #1 centerman. And the answer will be an 80-90% "hell yes!!". Because the #1 D-man is in all 3 phases of the game, and is on the ice for much more time than that #1 center. Hence the #1 d-man affects the game more than the #1 center does. This last season the most TOI/g for a center was 22:01, while you had 63 d-men log over that amount of time had more influence on the game. While TOI/g does not say how much of a difference that player made during that game. But it does tell me that a true #1 d-man has more importance to the game out come than a #1 center can do, cuz he is out there longer and make more plays than the center can. I know this will be a homer statement, but if you look at the Blues last season. We compiled a 109 point season as a team, without a true #1 center. While teams without a #1 true d-man, and with a #1 center, did not do as good as a team. There are other indicator that prove that a #1 d-man is more important than a #1 center, but this was enuff to get the point across.

But as to this trade proposal, it is junk. Yak/Kelfbom will have good to great futures ahead of them. The St. Louis Blues playoff window has arrived, trading Petro would close it immediately. It just make no sense, and it does not improve out team in the here and now. We are not in rebuilding phase, we are through that. You can discuss how much value Petro has, but at the end of the day. There is no way Armstrong can trade him, because he will never get enuff coming back to justify trading Petro. Another way of looking at it, look at Detroit. What would have they been over the last decade without Lidstrom. The situation is very similar.

LOl thats halarious...so you're telling me if there was a league wide draft to rebuild every team...you have Crosby,Malkin,Giroux,Stamkos, Sedin, Weber, Chara, Doughty, Karlsson, and Pietrangelo all available to choose from...you're going to pick one of the defenseman??? give me a break

oh and for your statement about how you got so many points without a true #1 centre....mind telling me which D-man Vancouver had that allowed them to win the presidents trophy the last 2 years....because I can recall 2 forwards winning the scoring race on that team twice in the last 3 years.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 09-23-2012 at 11:14 PM. Reason: qep
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Old
09-23-2012, 06:30 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
As it stands right now Pietrangelo is a top 5 D in the league by my books (Weber, Chara, Karlsson, Doughty, Piets), RNH is not even a top 30 C

With time it may change, but if I was St. Louis I wouldn't trade him for anything at this point. The Leafs missing out on Pietrangelo to get Schenn is essentially the saddest point in our history. I know we tried hard to make a deal for him (my brother is friends with / played hockey with his brother) but we fell just short. Sigh...

Teams can win with great defence and medicore forwards (See Nashville, St. Louis etc) and the reverse usually isn't true.
Mind naming 30 centres better than RNH? thanks.

and the " the reverse usually isn't true" well the canucks won the presidents trophy without a top end D-man, and the Devils went to the cup finals with a bunch of no name defensemen.

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09-23-2012, 06:34 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Franchise defensemen and franchise centers virtually have the same value. What makes them differ in value is age, contracts, potential, production, etc.

Right now Pietrangelo has more trade value than RNH, and he is pretty much on par with Giroux. These types of players never get traded unless it is an an unforeseeable situation that clearly affects the trade value. If they were ever traded, just to be traded or moved, it would be for a similar piece in a different position with a piece that fills another need or a couple players just below the franchise player notch.

The only way Edmonton ever gets Pietrangelo from the Blues in a normal situation is RNH and a piece that makes it worth it. Our offense doesn't need RNH. Two seasons ago we had a top 10 offense, and this past season we suffered injuries to our top offensive players.

Add in Tarasenko and Schwartz in the future, Pietrangelo's 2nd half production for an entire season, Stewart not performing nearly as bad, Perron staying healthy, and Berglund potentially finally taking the next step forward with healthy linemates, and all that says we will be just fine offensively.

Pietrangelo is probably the most irreplaceable skater in the NHL today, that's not even an exaggeration.
he has the same value that OEL has to phoenix...plus whats Tampa Bay without Stamkos....columbus
no one has more value totheir team than stamkos does

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09-23-2012, 06:36 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
That everyone outside of Edmonton agrees with. Once RNH actually proves that over an entire season he is an 80+ point center, then he can join that class. I believe that will definitely happen, he just has to actually do it. No one is saying anything against RNH, just that he isn't on the level of Pietrangelo or Giroux yet, but that is simply because he doesn't have the experience or proven track record yet. Maybe RNH is just another immensely talented, but injury-prone center.
i bet a lot of people put way more value into giroux than pietrangelo

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09-23-2012, 06:40 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by SteenMachine View Post
Except all the teams that do win have a #1 d-man so what's your point? Oh you don't have one.
who was carolina's #1 defenseman in 2006? oh thats our point

it basically comes down to franchise goalie beats all...when you consider who wins the conn smyth all the time

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09-23-2012, 06:45 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidLine93 View Post
i bet a lot of people put way more value into giroux than pietrangelo
More value sure, alot more value I doubt that very much. As I have said top 5 centers and top 5 dmen do not get traded often. Most teams that have one of these assets typically is not going to trade them.

Value wise Giroux and AP are about the same with slight edge to Giroux.

You also have to look at teams strengths when deciding value, to the Blues obviously AP has more value then Giroux so I would not make the trade even though at face value Giroux has a slightly higher value league wide.

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09-23-2012, 06:47 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Pietro is a very good dman, but giving up that much up is quite crazy in my mind. STL also can't afford to lose a dman any way and Shatty has no value to EDM as we have dmen that can move the puck already. Give Yak a year or so to prove himself then his value will be high and maybe a team like PHX to get OEL will make sense.
i wish...but that is very very very unlikely

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09-23-2012, 07:02 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidLine93 View Post
he has the same value that OEL has to phoenix...plus whats Tampa Bay without Stamkos....columbus
no one has more value totheir team than stamkos does
OEL has Yandle on the blueline with him. And dont talk about Blues having Shatty as he is no where close to Yandle. Yandle is a legit number 1. PHX D is better equiped to lose OEL then the Blues is to lose AP.

Either way I would say if he is not the most irreplacable player on a team in the league, he is one of the top 3.

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09-23-2012, 07:02 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
More people would rather Doughty. And you seem to forget the days of Orr, Lidstrom, Stevens, Foote all dominating for their team to lead to a cup.
You have a point with Orr. Lidstrom had some no name forwards like Yzerman,Shannahan, larionov, datsyuk and zetterberg winning cups with him

Stevens had a defence partner by the name of scott niedermyer...(so the team has 2 stud d-man (rare)) and arguably one of the best goaltenders in history in Brodeur to save their butts.

Adam Foote is the name that caught your eye from that cup team?? i remembered some centres by the names of Sakic and Forsberg being pretty important...but patrick Roy was also more important than Foote.

Ray Bourge won NOTHING in Boston ...goes to Colorado for one year where they have some stud Centermen and look what he wins...the cup

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09-23-2012, 07:05 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Most of those aren't franchise defensemen. There are way more franchise centers, than franchise defensemen, which makes franchise defensemen more rare and more valuable.

the point he proved is that cup winning teams need a franchise centre to win (with the exception of having a Vezina calibre goalie stealing games). A franchise defenseman is not worth as much as a franchise centre..

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09-23-2012, 08:26 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidLine93 View Post
You have a point with Orr. Lidstrom had some no name forwards like Yzerman,Shannahan, larionov, datsyuk and zetterberg winning cups with him

Stevens had a defence partner by the name of scott niedermyer...(so the team has 2 stud d-man (rare)) and arguably one of the best goaltenders in history in Brodeur to save their butts.

Adam Foote is the name that caught your eye from that cup team?? i remembered some centres by the names of Sakic and Forsberg being pretty important...but patrick Roy was also more important than Foote.

Ray Bourge won NOTHING in Boston ...goes to Colorado for one year where they have some stud Centermen and look what he wins...the cup
That Phil Esposito guy was pretty bad, I'd agree.

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09-23-2012, 08:32 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by KidLine93 View Post
the point he proved is that cup winning teams need a franchise centre to win (with the exception of having a Vezina calibre goalie stealing games). A franchise defenseman is not worth as much as a franchise centre..
Boston? Kings this year?

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Old
09-23-2012, 09:51 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
As it stands right now Pietrangelo is a top 5 D in the league by my books (Weber, Chara, Karlsson, Doughty, Piets), RNH is not even a top 30 C

With time it may change, but if I was St. Louis I wouldn't trade him for anything at this point. The Leafs missing out on Pietrangelo to get Schenn is essentially the saddest point in our history. I know we tried hard to make a deal for him (my brother is friends with / played hockey with his brother) but we fell just short. Sigh...

Teams can win with great defence and medicore forwards (See Nashville, St. Louis etc) and the reverse usually isn't true.
Give me a break. RNH was one of the top 5 centers in the league (as a ROOKIE), before he got injured. You obviously have NO idea what you are talking about.

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09-23-2012, 10:03 PM
  #215
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Give me a break. RNH was one of the top 5 centers in the league (as a ROOKIE), before he got injured. You obviously have NO idea what you are talking about.
Hmm..wouldn't go that far but he was going at a pretty good pace before his injury. Definitely a top 30 center in the league.

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09-23-2012, 10:20 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Johnny Bravo View Post
Give me a break. RNH was one of the top 5 centers in the league (as a ROOKIE), before he got injured. You obviously have NO idea what you are talking about.
So RNH is with Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, and Giroux; and is better than Toews, Datsyuk, Sedin, Kopitar, etc. I could have easily made that list longer too.

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09-23-2012, 10:21 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Johnny Bravo View Post
Give me a break. RNH was one of the top 5 centers in the league (as a ROOKIE), before he got injured. You obviously have NO idea what you are talking about.
RNH is good but I wouldn't say he's near the top5 yet. He might be top10 offensively but even then I think it's close, not to mention defensive assignments, faceoffs, etc..

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09-23-2012, 10:49 PM
  #218
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St. Louis laughs. 2 unproven albeit very very good prospects for a guy who's proven to be a #1 D-man at 22. Switch Yak to RNH and the Blues think long about it IMO, but at that point the Oil go no. St. Louis won't trade Petro and for good reason.

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09-23-2012, 11:35 PM
  #219
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I think a Yakupov for Adam Larsson deal would make some sense. I think NJD may have to
add something minor.

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09-24-2012, 04:06 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
So RNH is with Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, and Giroux; and is better than Toews, Datsyuk, Sedin, Kopitar, etc. I could have easily made that list longer too.
Here we go again lol.

Lets use an example here-

John Tavares Pre All Star 2011-2012
49 points in 48 games, 15 PP points, 17 hits

Joe Thornton Pre All Star 2011-2012
38 points in 47 games, 9 PP points, 17 hits

Henrik Sedin Pre All Star 2011-2012
52 points in 49 games, 20 PP points, 16 hits

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins Pre All Star 2011-2012
35 points in 38 games, 18 PP points, 22 hits

So in 38 games RNH had more hits than 3 of the most respected centers in the league did in 47-49 games.

RNH had almost as much points on the power play in 38 games as Henrik had in 49. And SJ and Van finished 2nd and 4th respectively as a team on the PP.

RNH was nearly on par PPG wise with Sedin in the games leading up to the All Star break. And would have easily surpassed Thornton. Both former Art Ross winners.

All of this as a rookie!! A rookie who many claimed was not ready for the NHL.

For those that think RNH is a one dimensional offensive center, you need to watch him more.

In a few years he will be stripping the puck from Datsyuk and competing for the Ross.

Bet on it.

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09-24-2012, 04:30 AM
  #221
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Edmonton would be foolish to not do this, Pietro is exactly what Edmonton needs. The dude is already a top 5 dman in the entire league, STL would never do such a trade unless their hands were tied

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09-24-2012, 04:31 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Here we go again lol.

Lets use an example here-

John Tavares Pre All Star 2011-2012
49 points in 48 games, 15 PP points, 17 hits

Joe Thornton Pre All Star 2011-2012
38 points in 47 games, 9 PP points, 17 hits

Henrik Sedin Pre All Star 2011-2012
52 points in 49 games, 20 PP points, 16 hits

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins Pre All Star 2011-2012
35 points in 38 games, 18 PP points, 22 hits

So in 38 games RNH had more hits than 3 of the most respected centers in the league did in 47-49 games.

RNH had almost as much points on the power play in 38 games as Henrik had in 49. And SJ and Van finished 2nd and 4th respectively as a team on the PP.

RNH was nearly on par PPG wise with Sedin in the games leading up to the All Star break. And would have easily surpassed Thornton. Both former Art Ross winners.

All of this as a rookie!! A rookie who many claimed was not ready for the NHL.

For those that think RNH is a one dimensional offensive center, you need to watch him more.

In a few years he will be stripping the puck from Datsyuk and competing for the Ross.

Bet on it.
That's great and all, and eventually RNH could definitely become that, but right now he is not a top 5 center.

How bout the argument of January to the end of the season for Pietrangelo or a different Oiler fan dismissed. Do those arguments only work if they are for your player? Petro had 40 points in 44 games.

Please continue with your completely flawed arguments.

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09-24-2012, 04:59 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
That's great and all, and eventually RNH could definitely become that, but right now he is not a top 5 center.

How bout the argument of January to the end of the season for Pietrangelo or a different Oiler fan dismissed. Do those arguments only work if they are for your player? Petro had 40 points in 44 games.

Please continue with your completely flawed arguments.
Flawed? Please explain.

I literally broke it down and showed you that a rookie can compete and play on par with one of the centers you named.

The Pietrangelo subject is done. I'll admit he is a top ten D in the league. And will most likely be top 5 next season.

But these 2 players can't be compared. Different positions, ages, team structures etc...

At this point in time, Armstrong and Tambo would both be buried alive for even considering a trade. Both players would help either team, absolutely. But STL and EDM clearly make bad trading partners. Unless Halak feels like playing north of the border that is.

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09-24-2012, 06:44 AM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Here we go again lol.

Lets use an example here-

John Tavares Pre All Star 2011-2012
49 points in 48 games, 15 PP points, 17 hits

Joe Thornton Pre All Star 2011-2012
38 points in 47 games, 9 PP points, 17 hits

Henrik Sedin Pre All Star 2011-2012
52 points in 49 games, 20 PP points, 16 hits

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins Pre All Star 2011-2012
35 points in 38 games, 18 PP points, 22 hits

So in 38 games RNH had more hits than 3 of the most respected centers in the league did in 47-49 games.

RNH had almost as much points on the power play in 38 games as Henrik had in 49. And SJ and Van finished 2nd and 4th respectively as a team on the PP.

RNH was nearly on par PPG wise with Sedin in the games leading up to the All Star break. And would have easily surpassed Thornton. Both former Art Ross winners.

All of this as a rookie!! A rookie who many claimed was not ready for the NHL.

For those that think RNH is a one dimensional offensive center, you need to watch him more.

In a few years he will be stripping the puck from Datsyuk and competing for the Ross.

Bet on it.
Assuming a rookie would "easily" surpass another players production is a reach because you're acting as if he will have no ups and downs

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09-24-2012, 08:11 AM
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Here we go again lol.

Lets use an example here-

John Tavares Pre All Star 2011-2012
49 points in 48 games, 15 PP points, 17 hits

Joe Thornton Pre All Star 2011-2012
38 points in 47 games, 9 PP points, 17 hits

Henrik Sedin Pre All Star 2011-2012
52 points in 49 games, 20 PP points, 16 hits

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins Pre All Star 2011-2012
35 points in 38 games, 18 PP points, 22 hits

So in 38 games RNH had more hits than 3 of the most respected centers in the league did in 47-49 games.

RNH had almost as much points on the power play in 38 games as Henrik had in 49. And SJ and Van finished 2nd and 4th respectively as a team on the PP.

RNH was nearly on par PPG wise with Sedin in the games leading up to the All Star break. And would have easily surpassed Thornton. Both former Art Ross winners.

All of this as a rookie!! A rookie who many claimed was not ready for the NHL.

For those that think RNH is a one dimensional offensive center, you need to watch him more.

In a few years he will be stripping the puck from Datsyuk and competing for the Ross.

Bet on it.


And most importantly, he did it as a plus player, playing against the other teams best lines!

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