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Patrick Kane and his value

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Old
09-24-2012, 12:21 PM
  #101
Chris Hansen
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
I agree that on the main boards Kane does not get enough credit, while Toews gets plenty. But I feel it is the opposite within the Hawks' fan base. To have a significant number of Hawks fans still insist that Kane is just as good, or just as valuable to his team than Toews just illustrates that point.
That might just be because he actually is as good.

Chicago's offense with Kane is quite pathetic. Toews does not create opportunities for himself or his teammates like Kane does, and it's not even remotely close, either.

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09-24-2012, 12:24 PM
  #102
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... Or maybe it's simply that he's an incredibly dynamic player with very obvious potential to be a perennial 90+ point player.

Wait, it is.

Hence you can surely understand Chicago fans' unwillingness to let him go.
He has the potential to be a 90+ point player, but he never has been. Lots of guys have the potential to produce more than they have, but that doesn't mean their trade value is that of a player that actually does produce those numbers. Alex Kovalev was an incredibly dynamic player with obvious potential to put up huge points, only problem was he didn't do it very often.

I can understand the Chicago fans not wanting to deal him, but it seems this thread and any other thread started on here that involves trading Kane is started by a Chicago fan. Then when the other fanbase doesn't want to give up their stars you and the other Chicago fans all come in yelling about his potential and how great he is. We all know when you have a player that is playing under his potential then you're better off to keep him then sell low, so what's this big push on with Chicago fans to deal him? Keep him if he's so valuable to you, but you can't act like Chicago fans are the only ones that know hockey when your proposals are rejected.

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09-24-2012, 12:26 PM
  #103
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He is 23 years old and already has an 88 point season to his name. I think we can hold off on the Kovalev comparisons


Last edited by Chris Hansen: 09-24-2012 at 12:37 PM.
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09-24-2012, 12:28 PM
  #104
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There also is no "big push" by Chicago fans to deal Kane. I don't know why people seem to think there is.

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09-24-2012, 12:35 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
There also is no "big push" by Chicago fans to deal Kane. I don't know why people seem to think there is.
Because as much as people harp on him, they still know he's an extraordinarily talented player that they want to buy low on.

Kane's worst year as of age 23 would still be a career year for at least 95% of players in the league.

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09-24-2012, 12:38 PM
  #106
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Toews has been pretty underwhelming the last couple of years.

He too is living off a reputation but does not get called out on it... Canadian media and what have you.

Two seasons ago when the Hawks were struggling just to make the playoffs Toews was nowhere to be seen and was playing very, very poorly, this was blamed on yet another injury to Toews.

During that time Kane still was putting up the points and dragged the Hawks just far enough to get into the playoffs (with a little help from the Wild)

This year Toews was playing well until he got his concussion... he is getting hurt just too frequently now for my tastes... and his playoff numbers not pretty too look at lately either.. just 3 goals in his past 21 games.

I'm a Hawk fan and love both players but the unending showering of love for Toews is a little ridiculous.. anytime I hear the Canadian media talk about him I just laugh.. he is not a top 3 center in the league like they would have you believe hell.. he isn't even top 5.

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09-24-2012, 12:41 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
He is 23 years old and already has an 88 point season to his name. I think we can hold off on the Kovalev comparisons
Followed by a 73pt season, then a 66pt season. Yet he's being labeled a 90pt player? His career average is 73 points.. 17 shy of 90.

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09-24-2012, 12:41 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
That might just be because he actually is as good.

Chicago's offense with Kane is quite pathetic. Toews does not create opportunities for himself or his teammates like Kane does, and it's not even remotely close, either.
I understand you are a big Kane fan, and I don't expect that anything I say will change that, but what I have quoted above is purely opinion. When it comes to offense, the only evidence that we have that we can really hang our hat on is points. Kane simply has not shown, statistically, that he is significantly better than Toews offensively. Its as simple as that. You can toss out opinions like Toews not being able to "create opportunities" the way Kane does until the cows come home, but the fact remains that they are merely opinions. And they are opinions that aren;t backed up by any facts.

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09-24-2012, 12:46 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Toews has been pretty underwhelming the last couple of years.

He too is living off a reputation but does not get called out on it... Canadian media and what have you.

Two seasons ago when the Hawks were struggling just to make the playoffs Toews was nowhere to be seen and was playing very, very poorly, this was blamed on yet another injury to Toews.

During that time Kane still was putting up the points and dragged the Hawks just far enough to get into the playoffs (with a little help from the Wild)

This year Toews was playing well until he got his concussion... he is getting hurt just too frequently now for my tastes... and his playoff numbers not pretty too look at lately either.. just 3 goals in his past 21 games.

I'm a Hawk fan and love both players but the unending showering of love for Toews is a little ridiculous.. anytime I hear the Canadian media talk about him I just laugh.. he is not a top 3 center in the league like they would have you believe hell.. he isn't even top 5.
Talk about cherry picking to serve your purpose. In an argument about Kane and Toews, you are arguing that Toews has been "underwhelming" the last couple years? Really?

As for the push for the playoffs a couple years ago, while Kane performed better down the stretch (where it was quite obvious Toews was not 100%), they Hawks would have been nowhere near the playoffs if not for the way Toews played in the middle of the season.

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09-24-2012, 01:46 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Talk about cherry picking to serve your purpose. In an argument about Kane and Toews, you are arguing that Toews has been "underwhelming" the last couple years? Really?

As for the push for the playoffs a couple years ago, while Kane performed better down the stretch (where it was quite obvious Toews was not 100%), they Hawks would have been nowhere near the playoffs if not for the way Toews played in the middle of the season.
Well yes, he has been especially if you are ripping Kane for his performance.. I don't see how you can praise Toews for his... seeing as how Toews no showed down the stretch in 10/11 and the past two years have had a poor Playoffs (to go along with his underwhelming Stanley Cup Final to boot)

Kane had an off year 11/12 but was fine in 10/11 he was a PPG.

Toews probably wasn't 100% near the end of 10/11 (but neither was Kane in 11/12 with his wrist surgery) but that's the thing.. he is almost never 100% now... every year down the stretch and in the playoffs we always have to hear how he is hurt now.

You simply cannot rip Kane for his "poor" play while being a fan of Toews.. it is the ultimate in cherry picking.

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09-24-2012, 02:43 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Well yes, he has been especially if you are ripping Kane for his performance.. I don't see how you can praise Toews for his... seeing as how Toews no showed down the stretch in 10/11 and the past two years have had a poor Playoffs (to go along with his underwhelming Stanley Cup Final to boot)

Kane had an off year 11/12 but was fine in 10/11 he was a PPG.

Toews probably wasn't 100% near the end of 10/11 (but neither was Kane in 11/12 with his wrist surgery) but that's the thing.. he is almost never 100% now... every year down the stretch and in the playoffs we always have to hear how he is hurt now.

You simply cannot rip Kane for his "poor" play while being a fan of Toews.. it is the ultimate in cherry picking.
I am not "ripping" Kane. He has been been less than stellar over the past two seasons, I don't think there is too much argument about that. I am simply pointing out to all those who insist that Kane is so much better than Toews offensively that the stats don't back it up. Its as simple as that. And when you acknowledge that offensively there isn't a huge difference one way or another, than there is absolutely no argument for Kane being as valuable as Toews is.

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09-24-2012, 02:44 PM
  #112
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Kane is a fantastic Offensive player...Little D, No PK, Easily taken out of his game by physical players...Toews has numbers close to Kane (numbers-#1 on HF), plays great D, PK, digs the puck out, gets hit and keeps playing hard...
Oh, and Hansen...maybe Toews is closer to Malhotra if he doesn't score....Much better than being closer to Frolik, like P. Kane(though not as fast).

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09-24-2012, 02:48 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by GaryU View Post
Kane is a fantastic Offensive player...Little D, No PK, Easily taken out of his game by physical players...Toews has numbers close to Kane (numbers-#1 on HF), plays great D, PK, digs the puck out, gets hit and keeps playing hard...
Oh, and Hansen...maybe Toews is closer to Malhotra if he doesn't score....Much better than being closer to Frolik, like P. Kane(though not as fast).
You just disqualified yourself from this conversation.

Patrick Kane laughs in the face of physicality. He's too fast and shifty for opponents to really lay a good hit on him.

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09-24-2012, 02:51 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
You just disqualified yourself from this conversation.

Patrick Kane laughs in the face of physicality. He's too fast and shifty for opponents to really lay a good hit on him.
they don't have to lay him out, slowing him down is usually enough.

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09-24-2012, 02:55 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by GaryU View Post
they don't have to lay him out, slowing him down is usually enough.
They've slowed him down so much that he's just under a PPG over his entire career.

And in the ever-so-incredibly-physical playoffs, he's over a PPG.

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09-24-2012, 03:09 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
They've slowed him down so much that he's just under a PPG over his entire career.

And in the ever-so-incredibly-physical playoffs, he's over a PPG.
No one said he doesn't score, the rest of his game is what?

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09-24-2012, 03:27 PM
  #117
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No one said he doesn't score, the rest of his game is what?
If his game is judged primarily on scoring, and physical players don't slow down his scoring, then in what way is he "easily taken out of his game by physical players"?

He's not.

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09-24-2012, 03:37 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
They've slowed him down so much that he's just under a PPG over his entire career.

And in the ever-so-incredibly-physical playoffs, he's over a PPG.
You sound like Leaf fans labeling Kessel a "40 goal scorer" even though he isnt.

Kane has a career average of 73 pts per season. He is not a "PPG" player.

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09-24-2012, 03:38 PM
  #119
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Kane is an elite player.

The return would be another elite player, he won't be traded for quantity.
This is what people like to say and yet time and time and time and time again we see elite and even just star players get traded for much less, sometimes even spare parts.

Kane's value is still very good IMO but if a player like him gets traded its not gonna be in a swap for another big name superstar. Realistically it would be for at least a high level prospect or two, pick and another roster player, something like that.

Or even in Chicago's case they could use more depth and a better supporting cast so Kane could go for a few medium to above average roster players to fill things out. But this is all moot because CHI isn't going to trade Kane anyways, so fuhgeddaboutit.


Last edited by Philly85: 09-24-2012 at 03:46 PM.
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09-24-2012, 03:40 PM
  #120
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Kane is still young, but fact is his point totals have regressed the past few seasons. 88-73-66... He has been trending downwards. When Kane isn't scoring, he isn't impacting the game in any other way, not physically, not defensively, not on the PK..

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09-24-2012, 03:42 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
He is 23 years old and already has an 88 point season to his name. I think we can hold off on the Kovalev comparisons
I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison, just using Kovalev as an example to show that potential means nothing, and you're only as valuable as your results. You keep using catchy sounding things like calling him dynamic and shifty when confronted with actual numbers, you're starting to sound like a used car salesman. You need something to back up your argument other than opinion.

And for the record, this thread and the Kane to Boston thread were started by CHI fans, so don't flatter yourselves too much.

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09-24-2012, 03:43 PM
  #122
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kane is undersized , maybe a big powerforward with good potential another rookie and a first rounder

why move him tho?

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09-24-2012, 03:54 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
You sound like Leaf fans labeling Kessel a "40 goal scorer" even though he isnt.

Kane has a career average of 73 pts per season. He is not a "PPG" player.
I said he's "just under PPG", which at .92 PPG, he most certainly is.

It's really adorable how you've latched onto this question of Patrick Kane's value after you got so ******** in that thread about Krejci and Hamilton.

The funniest part is that you keep saying the same thing over and over again -- "his point totals are regressing!" -- but no one cares because it's obvious that you've never watched him play.

Oh, and if you'd bothered to look at how many games he played in 2010-2011, you'd see that though his point totals regressed, he was still a PPG player.

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09-24-2012, 03:59 PM
  #124
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Just out of curiosity, what would the Shark need to add to Couture to get Kane? I feel like the Hawks would ask for Vlasic, but that's a no-go. We could add a D-prospect like Petrecki or Doherty or Abeltshauser and a 2nd. I dunno. Kane would be awesome on the Sharks, I think he and Pavelski would make a killer duo. And Couture would solve Chicago's #2C problems for a long time. Toews-Couture is a studly center pair.

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09-24-2012, 04:02 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
I said he's "just under PPG", which at .92 PPG, he most certainly is.

It's really adorable how you've latched onto this question of Patrick Kane's value after you got so ******** in that thread about Krejci and Hamilton.

The funniest part is that you keep saying the same thing over and over again -- "his point totals are regressing!" -- but no one cares because it's obvious that you've never watched him play.

Oh, and if you'd bothered to look at how many games he played in 2010-2011, you'd see that though his point totals regressed, he was still a PPG player.
Ahhh the always classic "You've never watched him play"...
A Hawks fans creates a thread proposing Kane to BOS for Krejci AND Hamilton,, Boston fans (& fans of neutral teams) agree that while Kane holds slightly more value than Krejci, Hamilton ISN'T the difference. Hawk fans begin to whine & sell us that Kane is elite, when stats clearly show that he is a career 25 goal scorer, averaging 73 pts per season thus far in his career.

And by the way, his point totals HAVE regressed! Why are you upset that I pointed out this fact?


Last edited by spiny norman: 09-24-2012 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Unecessary
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