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Old
09-20-2012, 12:19 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Probably a bunch of packages that look similar to the OP's.
Might well be, but I'm sure needs can be addressed more favourably.

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09-20-2012, 12:22 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Then why the hell include them?
Because
1) If they were not included there is not much chance of any deal [unless of course, you make a parallel to the Rangers with another team as broker coughing up its first 3 Cs, and they being = or > to Richards, Stepan and Boyle as a group; and

2) I considered it fair to raise the question as to whether or not such overpayment was still desirable to these two teams for this specific deal.

Consider, I extracted a lot from the Hawks, but they still have a lot of prospects, got the borderline elite pushing uber-elite C they wanted in Getzlaf, and at end of the day, only had to change 2 names on their suggested proposed line breakdowns, which could be done adding guys like Beach or a couple of different prospect Fs.

The Ducks were a harder fit, but I could see Perry going back in exchange for something else that was ample. However, this was also with an eye to resolving the current Getzlaf and Perry questions in one fell swoop.

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09-20-2012, 12:29 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Where did anyone ask for the Rangers to give up their top three centers? You were the one who brought up this idea. It's not as if the Ducks or the Hawks would ever come knocking with that specific demand and be willing to blatantly overpay as a result. The Ducks, especially, would get obliterated in your proposed trade. They'd get Richards and Stepan in exchange for Perry and Getzlaf. Dreadful.
It is difficult to immediately recall a single team with the C assets to do this deal besides the Rangers, although I don't doubt you could do it with two or more clubs.

The idea was to consider IF there was ANY way to indulge OPs request.
This did that.
You feel the component about Perry was too much. Fine.

Keep the structure intact, and make a counter proposal, keeping Perry, and with Ducks giving Rangers something else.

But realize, if you need a team to broker because the 2 principal teams do not directly have complementary resources to work by themselves, which is the case here, then and in that event, you have to pay that team a commission to accommodate you. And when it is not just one C, but their first 3 Cs, then, whatever that club is, Rangers or anyone else, their entitled to a premium.

If you want that premium to be something else, that's what these boards are for, in part, so suggest on...........

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Old
09-20-2012, 01:50 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
If you are committed to re-sign Getzlaf at almost any number, that's one thing. Ditto Perry. However there is no awareness of any extension/new deal forthcoming. Conventional wisdom says no signing at current numbers to date, either new signings will not take place, or will be for top, top dollar with cap consequences.
The Ducks are committed on re-signing Getzlaf and Getzlaf seems committed to staying. There was an article just a week ago talking about it. Perry, on the other hand, remains to be seen.


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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Richards is comparable in age
Richards = 32...Getzlaf = 27. How is that comparable? Getzlaf is still in his prime years, whereas, Richards is no longer.

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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
As I explained, you and counterpart Hawk fans can't do this deal without a third team broker cause neither has enough C. To oblige BOTH of you, Rangers have to give up their 1st 3 Cs. That is why massive overpayment is needed/justified
The Duck fans are happy about not doing the trade...only Hawk fans wanted it. Ducks do not need to be obliged, because they hung up the phone from the beginning. As for massive overpayment...well, considering the Rangers (you) invited themselves into the trade, it would be the Rangers (you) having to make concessions to get the other teams to want to include them as a 'broker' in the trade. You're trying to make it sound as though the Rangers are doing everyone a favor here and that the Hawks and Ducks asked them to help make a deal possible. The Ducks give up 2 elite talents, yet they have to massively overpay? Yeah, that sounds about right...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
But IF such a Duck - Hawk deal goes down, a third team will have to be massively overpaid to facilitate it.
Makes no sense for anyone but the Rangers. Easy no from the other teams.

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Old
09-20-2012, 01:57 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
You take a stab at it.
Ducks and Hawks; Rangers facilitate to broker.
Rangers are not giving up their top 3 Cs to help these teams without massive overpay.

Assume Hawks want Getzlaf badly enough, and will do prospects.

I invite your counterpart, but you are going to wind up with something similar, i.e., you remove Perry to Rangers, and add alternate acceptable compensation.
The OP didn't include the Rangers. You are forcing the Rangers into the trade (a trade that was already turned down by Duck fans, mind you) and then saying that because the Rangers are involved, the other teams have to massively overpay. Well, great...get the Rangers the f out, because they weren't invited anyhow. The Ducks are perfectly happy passing on the OP and the crazy proposal you put up.

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Old
09-20-2012, 02:31 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8oooo View Post
The OP didn't include the Rangers. You are forcing the Rangers into the trade (a trade that was already turned down by Duck fans, mind you) and then saying that because the Rangers are involved, the other teams have to massively overpay. Well, great...get the Rangers the f out, because they weren't invited anyhow. The Ducks are perfectly happy passing on the OP and the crazy proposal you put up.
I'm not sure why he believes that the Rangers have so much to offer up the middle anyway, given that Stepan and Boyle are not exactly standout players.

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Old
09-20-2012, 02:39 PM
  #82
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Especially with Getzlaf coming and Toews staying, I'd love to hear how Boyle is an upgrade over our current third line center, David Bolland.

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09-20-2012, 02:46 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
But realize, if you need a team to broker because the 2 principal teams do not directly have complementary resources to work by themselves, which is the case here, then and in that event, you have to pay that team a commission to accommodate you. And when it is not just one C, but their first 3 Cs, then, whatever that club is, Rangers or anyone else, their entitled to a premium.
So basically the Rangers are being paid a broker's fee, and a rather massive one at that; it's a fee that makes this trade into a losing proposition for both of the original teams. Ask yourself why it would make sense for the Ducks and the Blackhawks to invite the Rangers into this trade in the way you've proposed when doing so will result in both of those teams becoming worse than they were before.


Last edited by Crymson: 09-20-2012 at 03:13 PM.
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Old
09-23-2012, 11:22 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by DontToewzMeBro View Post
Get back to me when Getzlaf is as good at playing center as Toews
He has been every year of his career except for one actually

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Old
09-23-2012, 11:40 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
He has been every year of his career except for one actually
Nope. Toews is a top 5 center. Getzlaf is a top 10 when he is on his game.

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09-23-2012, 11:52 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Nope. Toews is a top 5 center. Getzlaf is a top 10 when he is on his game.
No both are top 15 or more.

Crosby Malkin
Giroux Stamkos Sedin Spezza Tavares Backstrom Kopitar Datsyuk RNH
Then theres Getzlaf.(On his game, if not he's in the 4th tier.(With others...)
Then theres the two-way center(Including Toews.)

Toews has been overrated by the canadian media, now everybody thinks he's top 5. Sure he won the Conn smythe... Who else shouldve won it ? He won a cup on an incredibly stacked team ! COOL! He won the MVP in the Olympics that's another thing to his record.. He's freaking good, like i'd take him on my team ANY day of the weak, but how in hell can he be considered top 5 ???

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Old
09-23-2012, 11:53 PM
  #87
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People who watch hockey know ask all the experts

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Old
09-24-2012, 01:59 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Sure he won the Conn smythe... Who else shouldve won it ?
Patrick Kane could have won the Conn Smythe.

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Old
09-24-2012, 02:21 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Nope. Toews is a top 5 center. Getzlaf is a top 10 when he is on his game.
...what? Getzlaf, at his best, is one of the best players in the NHL. Anyone who saw the 2009 playoffs can attest to that. Personally, I don't think Toews, at his best, has shown he can match Getzlaf at his. Getzlaf is the better player offensively, while Toews is better defensively. Toews has a better work ethic(and I'll readily admit I dislike that about Getzlaf), but it still hasn't stopped Getzlaf from out producing him on a regular basis. That, in itself, is a pretty strong statement regarding Getzlaf's offensive talent. Where Getzlaf really takes it is in his ability to manhandle the opposition physical.

Also, for all the talk about how Toews was so great in the Olympics, he only had one point more than Getzlaf... who, admittedly, didn't have the best tournament himself.
Using such a short tournament as an argument for one player vs. another is pretty weak. Hell, the two players have only played in one other international tournament, which was the 2008 World Championship. In that tournament, Getzlaf was easily the better player of the two, and by a pretty significant margin. One tournament doesn't mean a whole lot on its own.

Right now Getzlaf is being hit pretty hard by "what have you done for me lately" syndrome. One bad season has become a few years of underperforming, and an underrating of past performances. There are only a handful of players who have been as consistent as he has offensively, and it's up to Getzlaf to show this last season was an anomaly, and not a sign of things to come. I have great respect for Toews, but really, I'm not sure I've ever seen a case where a player has been put on such a high pedestal without being able to produce at a point per game pace. I'd certainly expect a top 5 center to be able to give you that. Frankly, I doubt we'd see so many arguments talking about Toews' "intangibles" if he had better numbers to support the claims of him being a top center.

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09-24-2012, 02:29 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
No both are top 15 or more.

Crosby Malkin
Giroux Stamkos Sedin Spezza Tavares Backstrom Kopitar Datsyuk RNH
Then theres Getzlaf.(On his game, if not he's in the 4th tier.(With others...)
Then theres the two-way center(Including Toews.)

Toews has been overrated by the canadian media, now everybody thinks he's top 5. Sure he won the Conn smythe... Who else shouldve won it ? He won a cup on an incredibly stacked team ! COOL! He won the MVP in the Olympics that's another thing to his record.. He's freaking good, like i'd take him on my team ANY day of the weak, but how in hell can he be considered top 5 ???
Did you really just put RNH over Getzlaf? That's a joke...I won't even speak for the rest, considering you lose all credibility after putting RNH over him.

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Old
09-24-2012, 02:33 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Trance Kuja View Post
Patrick Kane could have won the Conn Smythe.
Or Duncan Keith. Toews had a pretty underwhelming Cup Finals, which also speaks well of the Chicago team that year. That team didn't need to be carried by any one individual.

Also, Toews did not win MVP in the Olympics. I'm not sure where people keep getting that. Ryan Miller was the tournament MVP. Toews was named Best Forward, which was a completely different type of award. The best defenseman named was Rafalski, and (obviously) the best Goaltender was Miller.

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Old
09-24-2012, 04:10 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
No both are top 15 or more.

Crosby Malkin
Giroux Stamkos Sedin Spezza Tavares Backstrom Kopitar Datsyuk RNH
Then theres Getzlaf.(On his game, if not he's in the 4th tier.(With others...)
Then theres the two-way center(Including Toews.)

Toews has been overrated by the canadian media, now everybody thinks he's top 5. Sure he won the Conn smythe... Who else shouldve won it ? He won a cup on an incredibly stacked team ! COOL! He won the MVP in the Olympics that's another thing to his record.. He's freaking good, like i'd take him on my team ANY day of the weak, but how in hell can he be considered top 5 ???
Wow one bad season and everyone sours on Getzlaf, this is really funny. Please show me all the centers in the league that have had four straight PPG seasons, I'll give you a hint it's a short list.

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Old
09-24-2012, 02:22 PM
  #93
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People who watch hockey know ask all the experts
Because people who sign up on HFBoards don't watch hockey, unless you're a Chicago fan.

On 2nd thought: There's a lot of clueless posters here but you know who's who.


Last edited by ShadowDuck: 09-24-2012 at 02:51 PM.
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Old
09-24-2012, 02:31 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Wow one bad season and everyone sours on Getzlaf, this is really funny. Please show me all the centers in the league that have had four straight PPG seasons, I'll give you a hint it's a short list.
Of course we all know that the ONLY way to judge a player is by points...

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09-24-2012, 03:36 PM
  #95
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Of course we all know that the ONLY way to judge a player is by points...
It's obviously not the only way to judge a player...however, when the list of players doing it is as small as it is, it definitely puts him into elite territory.

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09-24-2012, 05:36 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Trance Kuja View Post
Patrick Kane could have won the Conn Smythe.
Agreed..
But by all that talk about him ''leading his team and blablbalbalabla'' I don't see how the NHL would give it to the party boy.. They like to put players under huge spotlight..I.E. Karlsson this year... It's all marketing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8oooo View Post
Did you really just put RNH over Getzlaf? That's a joke...I won't even speak for the rest, considering you lose all credibility after putting RNH over him.
I have high hopes in RNH. It's not a knock on Getzlaf..

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Wow one bad season and everyone sours on Getzlaf, this is really funny. Please show me all the centers in the league that have had four straight PPG seasons, I'll give you a hint it's a short list.
I've put a total of 11 center's that i'd take over Getzlaf.. How is that bad ??? After next season that is where he stands. And again it's not a knock on Getzlaf by any means.

You guy's already have the best RW in the league Relax

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09-24-2012, 05:58 PM
  #97
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I'd even say Briere or Pronger were equally deserving of the Conn Smythe.

Getzlaf could get more than the OP offers at the deadline, or certainly address positional need better.

The suggested New York deal is missing about 3 1st round picks leaving New York.

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Old
09-24-2012, 06:59 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by deckercky View Post
I'd even say Briere or Pronger were equally deserving of the Conn Smythe.

Getzlaf could get more than the OP offers at the deadline, or certainly address positional need better.

The suggested New York deal is missing about 3 1st round picks leaving New York.
Briere was very good, as was Pronger, until Buff ran him over..Pretty useless after that...As far as the Hawks, Sharp, Keith, Kane coulda, but didn't...

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09-24-2012, 07:11 PM
  #99
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Toews>>Getzlaf and that's pretty much common sense by now.

But hey I enjoy haters who belittle Toews and his accomplishments, it's a lot of "shoulda coulda woulda" BS.

Ask your Own fans if they would trade Getzlaf fr Toews straight up

And then I'll ask the Chicago fans and I can garuntee you the percentages would shock you


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 09-25-2012 at 09:45 AM. Reason: flaming
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Old
09-24-2012, 07:59 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by DontToewzMeBro View Post
Toews>>Getzlaf and that's pretty much common sense by now.

But hey I enjoy haters who belittle Toews and his accomplishments, it's a lot of "shoulda coulda woulda" BS.

Ask your Own fans if they would trade Getzlaf fr Toews straight up

And then I'll ask the Chicago fans and I can garuntee you the percentages would shock you
Very convincing. "My player is better. I can't give you any factual reasons why this is the case, but it's true."


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 09-25-2012 at 09:45 AM. Reason: qep
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