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Patrick Kane and his value

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Old
09-24-2012, 04:07 PM
  #126
Oates2Neely
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handyj View Post
I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison, just using Kovalev as an example to show that potential means nothing, and you're only as valuable as your results. You keep using catchy sounding things like calling him dynamic and shifty when confronted with actual numbers, you're starting to sound like a used car salesman. You need something to back up your argument other than opinion.

And for the record, this thread and the Kane to Boston thread were started by CHI fans, so don't flatter yourselves too much.
Perfectly said!

"Almost PPG"
"Elite"
"Shifty"
"Dynamic"
"Sniper"
"90 Point potential"

He's a good salesman.. Almost had me offer Seguin + Krejci + Lucic... for this "dynamic elite sniper who has 90pt potential".. Almost.

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09-24-2012, 04:26 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Ahhh the always classic "You've never watched him play"...

A Hawks fans creates a thread proposing Kane to BOS for Krejci AND Hamilton,, Boston fans (& fans of neutral teams) agree that while Kane holds slightly more value than Krejci, Hamilton ISN'T the difference. Hawk fans begin to whine & sell us that Kane is elite, when stats clearly show that he is a career 25 goal scorer, averaging 73 pts per season thus far in his career.

And by the way, his point totals HAVE regressed! Why are you upset that I pointed out this fact?
The first two paragraphs of this post are just a bunch of hemming and hawing. You're talking about everyone else while I was only talking about you.

The last sentence is completely oblivious to what I said above. Let's try that again.

Yes, his point totals in 2010-2011 did regress. But he was still a PPG player. Play fewer games, harder to keep up your point totals. Seems easy enough to understand.

This is the first year since 2010 where Kane has been under a PPG, and while no one's exactly happy about it, it hasn't changed our perception of Kane as an immensely talented forward that we're extremely lucky to have. His value to Chicago is still sky-high, which means if someone wants to trade for him, they'd better be offering a package that's sky-high.


Last edited by spiny norman: 09-24-2012 at 05:42 PM. Reason: qpe
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Old
09-24-2012, 04:37 PM
  #128
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I'd say there is a decent sized gap between Toews and Kane offensively with Kane being superior.

Kane has been a PPG player twice while being in the top 10 in scoring.

Toews has never been PPG or in the top 10.

The hate for Kane makes me laugh he is also great in the playoffs out performing other so called "elite superstar" losers like Jarome Iginla, Joe Thornton and The Sedins who when the playoffs come around their play drops.

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Old
09-24-2012, 04:44 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Toews has been pretty underwhelming the last couple of years.

He too is living off a reputation but does not get called out on it... Canadian media and what have you.

Two seasons ago when the Hawks were struggling just to make the playoffs Toews was nowhere to be seen and was playing very, very poorly, this was blamed on yet another injury to Toews.

During that time Kane still was putting up the points and dragged the Hawks just far enough to get into the playoffs (with a little help from the Wild)

This year Toews was playing well until he got his concussion... he is getting hurt just too frequently now for my tastes... and his playoff numbers not pretty too look at lately either.. just 3 goals in his past 21 games.
Toews has been underwhelming? LOL

He has 5 less pts than Kane over the last 2 years, while playing 16 less games than Kane. He is our ice time leader for forwards, plays top line PK, wins faceoffs like they're going out of style, and leaves everything out on the ice. Kane doesnt PK, is terrible at faceoffs, and doesnt give it all on every shift.

As for the injuries, there is a reason for them. He goes to the dirty areas, parks in front of the net and will willingly block shots, something else Kane doesnt ever do.

And there is no point in bringing up the playoff stats, because Kanes are just as bad over that time, if not worse.

Kane might be slightly better offensively, although the stats don't prove it, but they aren't even close as players when you take into account all the other important aspects of hockey.

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09-24-2012, 04:48 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
I'd say there is a decent sized gap between Toews and Kane offensively with Kane being superior.

Kane has been a PPG player twice while being in the top 10 in scoring.

Toews has never been PPG or in the top 10.

The hate for Kane makes me laugh he is also great in the playoffs out performing other so called "elite superstar" losers like Jarome Iginla, Joe Thornton and The Sedins who when the playoffs come around their play drops.
Again, an example of cherry picking stats to fit your argument. If you look at their entire careers the numbers don't lie: Kane 0.92 PPG Toews 0.90 PPG. If you look at their two most recent seasons: Kane 0.90 PPG, Toews 0.96 PPG. To say there is a "decent sized gap" between the two offensively certainly isn't backed up by their production.

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Old
09-24-2012, 04:50 PM
  #131
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In no way is Kane superior to Toews offensively. There is more to offense than making nice dekes, and spin o ramas. Slightly better....maybe.


Last edited by Hawkaholic: 09-24-2012 at 05:17 PM.
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Old
09-24-2012, 05:52 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
In no way is Kane superior to Toews offensively. There is more to offense than making nice dekes, and spin o ramas. Slightly better....maybe.
Toews has never been and simply might never be a PPG player.

Kane has been twice and should be only getting better.

In 2009-2010 Kane outscored Toews by a good 20 points and Kane was the only Hawk to score 30 goals that year..Granted Toews did miss a little bit of time but that is still a very big gap.

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09-24-2012, 06:18 PM
  #133
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I get the feeling that Kane has basically peaked. Dude who shows no commitment to improving his game + has a game that wasn't great to begin with.

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09-24-2012, 06:21 PM
  #134
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I think a fair proposal is Heatley + high draft pick for Kane.

Since I can't start new threads.

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Old
09-24-2012, 06:26 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Rangers View Post
I think a fair proposal is Heatley + high draft pick for Kane.

Since I can't start new threads.
Why would Chicago do that? They'd get an older, worse, and more expensive player?

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Old
09-24-2012, 06:29 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Toews has never been and simply might never be a PPG player.

Kane has been twice and should be only getting better.

In 2009-2010 Kane outscored Toews by a good 20 points and Kane was the only Hawk to score 30 goals that year..Granted Toews did miss a little bit of time but that is still a very big gap.
Well, you are consistent, I will give you that. You are still completely ignoring the fact that over their entire careers, their PPG is essentially the same. And that over the last 2 seasons Toews is significantly better than Kane's. How is this possible if Kane's offence is so much better?

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09-24-2012, 06:33 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by porknbeans420 View Post
I get the feeling that Kane has basically peaked. Dude who shows no commitment to improving his game + has a game that wasn't great to begin with.
For all his faults, Kane has actually improved considerably defensively. He is no longer a liability, and is pretty good positionally. For you to say he shows "no commitment to improving his game" suggests you don't watch him play much. And since when was his game "not great" to begin with? He was a first team All-Star RW at 21 years old.

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09-24-2012, 06:57 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Rangers View Post
I think a fair proposal is Heatley + high draft pick for Kane.

Since I can't start new threads.
Talk about someone on the way down & much older & much bigger (& still has someone else do his fighting)...Kane's got problems, but Heatley ain't close to the answer...

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Old
09-24-2012, 07:06 PM
  #139
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I wish the Hawks were as down on him as some of the posters here. I'd love him on the Bruins. A Lucic-Seguin-Kane line could be incredible.

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09-24-2012, 07:29 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
For all his faults, Kane has actually improved considerably defensively. He is no longer a liability, and is pretty good positionally. For you to say he shows "no commitment to improving his game" suggests you don't watch him play much. And since when was his game "not great" to begin with? He was a first team All-Star RW at 21 years old.
He has a lot of skill but I always saw his game as being low percentage. A lot of attempts and risky play for less production than he should have.

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09-24-2012, 09:31 PM
  #141
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I don't want to trade him, he's a dynamic O-player...Not close to the player that Toews is, however.

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09-24-2012, 10:08 PM
  #142
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Kane is a top 50 forward. So he is worth that.

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09-24-2012, 10:12 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
I wish the Hawks were as down on him as some of the posters here. I'd love him on the Bruins. A Lucic-Seguin-Kane line could be incredible.
Also a defensive nightmare.

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09-24-2012, 10:17 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Kane is a top 50 forward. So he is worth that.
I think most years he's actually top 30.

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Old
09-25-2012, 05:25 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
You sound like Leaf fans labeling Kessel a "40 goal scorer" even though he isnt.

Kane has a career average of 73 pts per season. He is not a "PPG" player.
you know the difference between "just under PPG" and "is a PPG" player?

and talking about POs, he IS a PPG player in over 50 games played. He will score in 9 of 10 games. That is good


Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Kane is a top 50 forward. So he is worth that.
he's a Top5 RW... when he is allowed to play as RW.

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Old
09-25-2012, 07:28 AM
  #146
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I wouldn't say that Kane is a better offensive player than Toews...I would say that Kane is a more noticeable offensive player than Toews because of his flashiness. But like someone else mentioned before, they have almost identical PPG over their careers...they just score their points in different ways.

Overall Toews is a better all-around player and has more value to the Hawks than Kane.

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09-25-2012, 07:38 AM
  #147
Jack Donaghy
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Also a defensive nightmare.
True.

Seguin-Bergeron-Kane

or

Marchand-Krejci-Kane

I just want him here. Buy low, the kid has all the skills.

(yes I know the Hawks aren't moving him in reality)

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09-25-2012, 07:51 AM
  #148
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Well, you are consistent, I will give you that. You are still completely ignoring the fact that over their entire careers, their PPG is essentially the same. And that over the last 2 seasons Toews is significantly better than Kane's. How is this possible if Kane's offence is so much better?
meh.

Toews misses alot of hockey which helps him a good deal.. it is easy to keep the PPG when you only play 60 games a year or so... Kane struggled last year but he was playing hurt for a while, he actually played his best hockey last year without Toews.

They almost always play on the same line as well so it is expected they'd have similar numbers.

Again anyone questioning who is better on offense simply needs to look at the 09/10 season and try to explain the huge 20 point gap between them.

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09-25-2012, 07:52 AM
  #149
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and I dunno why people were trying to bring up playoffs bit ago but Kane actually has more goals then Toews while playing in one less game as well... and Toews is the better goal scorer of the two.

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09-25-2012, 09:10 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
meh.

Toews misses alot of hockey which helps him a good deal.. it is easy to keep the PPG when you only play 60 games a year or so... Kane struggled last year but he was playing hurt for a while, he actually played his best hockey last year without Toews.

They almost always play on the same line as well so it is expected they'd have similar numbers.

Again anyone questioning who is better on offense simply needs to look at the 09/10 season and try to explain the huge 20 point gap between them.
I understand the bias (coming from a fan w/ a Kane avatar), but 2009 was 3 seasons ago. Yes, Kane had a great season, but he's a bit removed from that. This has always been a "what have you done for me lately" league, & Kane lately has been very good, but not elite. Hey Im not knocking Kane at all, I'd love to have him on the Bruins, Id even trade Krejci+ for him, that '+' just cant be Hamilton. Kane certainly has immense offensive skills, nobody can deny that, but if I had to choose between adding Toews or Kane to my team, there's no question who Im choosing.

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