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Old
09-25-2012, 09:00 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by saskriders View Post
Both sides are very greedy, but I think the players are being more reasonable, and don't want as drastic a change (though I can't stand Fehr). However the thing that the owners want that I really don't like is a cut on already signed contracts. It is classless and unfair to not give a player what you promised them (regardless of how ridiculous the number is or what the small print says). If you want a lower cap then just make the contracts signed before the CBA have a smaller cap hit, but every cent of those signed contracts should be payed out
This brings up an interesting point. I suspect this was discussed at great lengths between the PA and the NHL in initial discussions prior to the CBA expiring. And I also suspect the PA would have none of that, and told the players that it would never agree to this (i.e. all the players coming out and saying they already gave back in the last CBA and it's not going to happen again). Hence all those players signing long term contracts at the last minute to make sure they would not be affected by such an outcome. I also suspect that the NHL told it's owners that they would not sign a CBA unless the players agreed to some sort of rollback....Hence the willingness of teams to sign players to ridiculous long term contracts at the last minute.

It will be interesting to see who comes out the winner in this one.

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09-25-2012, 09:26 AM
  #27
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Devellano is a pig, this type of attitude is from a human completely disconnected from reality as we know it.

If you want to compare Sidney Crosby or Erik Karlsson to a cow ahead - the players are making the owners rich and the woners are making the players rich, this is not a situation where players are animals that get invited to eat at the masters table - Crosby would probably make more money playing in the KHL then the NHL.

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09-25-2012, 09:42 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Devellano is a pig, this type of attitude is from a human completely disconnected from reality as we know it.

If you want to compare Sidney Crosby or Erik Karlsson to a cow ahead - the players are making the owners rich and the woners are making the players rich, this is not a situation where players are animals that get invited to eat at the masters table - Crosby would probably make more money playing in the KHL then the NHL.
You realize he also called himself an animal right? People are making way too big of a deal out of this guy's analogy. Basically he meant the owners run the show and the players play the game. Really don't get what all of the fuss is about.


Last edited by WantEggRoll: 09-25-2012 at 09:57 AM.
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09-25-2012, 09:50 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Devellano is a pig, this type of attitude is from a human completely disconnected from reality as we know it.

If you want to compare Sidney Crosby or Erik Karlsson to a cow ahead - the players are making the owners rich and the woners are making the players rich, this is not a situation where players are animals that get invited to eat at the masters table - Crosby would probably make more money playing in the KHL then the NHL.
Very few owners make even a decent ROI by owning the team. They'd be much better off taking the 150m+ and putting it into a low yield investment vehicle - they'd make way more.

Of course, all of this ignores that the owners were rich BEFORE owning their respective team.

The players need to realize that despite making 57, 50, or 43% of revenues, they will still be paid millions and millions of dollars over the course of their career.

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09-25-2012, 09:56 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by corksens View Post
Very few owners make even a decent ROI by owning the team. They'd be much better off taking the 150m+ and putting it into a low yield investment vehicle - they'd make way more.

Of course, all of this ignores that the owners were rich BEFORE owning their respective team.

The players need to realize that despite making 57, 50, or 43% of revenues, they will still be paid millions and millions of dollars over the course of their career.
Of course this is not true - and what numbers do you have to back it up? Eugene Melnyk spends his time on a beach in the Caribbean watching the Sens from a beach bar - if that's not rich what is?

The players deserve every penny they make - they are the game not the owners. Nobody cares about any NHL owner.

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09-25-2012, 09:58 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Of course this is not true - and what numbers do you have to back it up? Eugene Melnyk spends his time on a beach in the Caribbean watching the Sens from a beach bar - if that's not rich what is?

The players deserve every penny they make - they are the game not the owners. Nobody cares about any NHL owner.
Plenty of people care about the NHL teams they own though. So let's get rid of the owners since noone cares about them. Now who is going to run/fund the 30 teams in the league? The players could I guess and then pay themselves, but lets see how that works out for them.

At the end of the day I want to see my TEAM win the Stanley Cup. I could really care less if Jason Spezza wins the Hart/Richard/Selke Trophy if the Ottawa Senators are sitting in last place.

The players might be the selling factor of the business, but a business is a required for them to have that chance. North America only has one group that is going to pay the players millions of dollars, give them first class facilities, and pay for all their extra crap. Don't like their rules? Go play somewhere else.

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09-25-2012, 10:01 AM
  #32
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If it's so easy for the player to start a league on their own, why don't they do it?

The fact that the NHLPA hasn't started their own league operating in minor league arenas indicates that:
a) they can't logistically
b) they can't financially for insurance or other reasons.

The owners will get what they want - without question. If this goes past November, no season guaranteed. No NHL classic? No season.

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09-25-2012, 10:06 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
Plenty of people care about the NHL teams they own though. So let's get rid of the owners since noone cares about them. Now who is going to run/fund the 30 teams in the league? The players could I guess and then pay themselves, but lets see how that works out for them.

At the end of the day I want to see my TEAM win the Stanley Cup. I could really care less if Jason Spezza wins the Hart/Richard/Selke Trophy if the Ottawa Senators are sitting in last place.

The players might be the selling factor of the business, but a business is a required for them to have that chance. North America only has one group that is going to pay the players millions of dollars, give them first class facilities, and pay for all their extra crap. Don't like their rules? Go play somewhere else.
It worked for Lemieux and Gretzky - maybe the players should start their own league.

The thing is here is the owners don't control the entire process - the players are a huge part in the game, it's not a take it or leave it situation because the players can't be replaced like cows can be replaced. Would you pay $100 to see our AHL team play in Ottawa? Exactly, you pay and watch the players and that is where the value of the NHL begins and ends - you want to have Andre Benoit as the afce of your franchise, see how much money you make selling him as opposed to Karlsson.

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09-25-2012, 10:13 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
It worked for Lemieux and Gretzky - maybe the players should start their own league.

The thing is here is the owners don't control the entire process - the players are a huge part in the game, it's not a take it or leave it situation because the players can't be replaced like cows can be replaced. Would you pay $100 to see our AHL team play in Ottawa? Exactly, you pay and watch the players and that is where the value of the NHL begins and ends - you want to have Andre Benoit as the afce of your franchise, see how much money you make selling him as opposed to Karlsson.
No the owners don't control the entire process, but they provide the environment in which the process takes place, so if they can't run things effectively they could fold the league.

The players have everything taken care of for them, they have a safe controlled environment to play in, and they are extremely well paid to do their jobs. In exchange for all of these benefits they have to play within the league's rules, and if the league wants to change those rules, then they should be allowed to.

If the players don't like the rules then go over to Russia where the contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on and your safety is questionable.

Edit: Don't get me wrong I really don't agree with what any party is doing. I just don't think the players have a lot of reason to be complaining.

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09-25-2012, 10:18 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
No the owners don't control the entire process, but they provide the environment in which the process takes place, so if they can't run things effectively they could fold the league.

The players have everything taken care of for them, they have a safe controlled environment to play in, and they are extremely well paid to do their jobs. In exchange for all of these benefits they have to play within the league's rules, and if the league wants to change those rules, then they should be allowed to.

If the players don't like the rules then go over to Russia where the contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on and your safety is questionable.
The NHL owners want to redo all the NHL player contracts, they are the ones who's word and contract paper is not worth a damn thing.

It goes both ways, I am with the players this time - they shouldn't have their contracts rolled back and should be paid every cent they have been promised. Suddenly out of nowhere and 5 years later - Eugene Melnyk cannot afford Spezza's contract??? If that is your business model, you probably shouldn't own an NHL team.

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09-25-2012, 10:28 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
The NHL owners want to redo all the NHL player contracts, they are the ones who's word and contract paper is not worth a damn thing.

It goes both ways, I am with the players this time - they shouldn't have their contracts rolled back and should be paid every cent they have been promised. Suddenly out of nowhere and 5 years later - Eugene Melnyk cannot afford Spezza's contract??? If that is your business model, you probably shouldn't own an NHL team.
I don't think they should be allowed to roll back their contracts. The whole % thing is where I believe the players are out to lunch. There is no way they should be getting over half of HRR when they are the employees. The only way a rollback should be allowed is if it is stated in the prior CBA when they signed their contracts that that "could" be a possibility.

Now if changing the definition of HRR or redistributing the player's share changes their contracts you've got a different story.

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09-25-2012, 10:46 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by corksens View Post
Very few owners make even a decent ROI by owning the team. They'd be much better off taking the 150m+ and putting it into a low yield investment vehicle - they'd make way more.

Of course, all of this ignores that the owners were rich BEFORE owning their respective team.

The players need to realize that despite making 57, 50, or 43% of revenues, they will still be paid millions and millions of dollars over the course of their career.
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
Plenty of people care about the NHL teams they own though. So let's get rid of the owners since noone cares about them. Now who is going to run/fund the 30 teams in the league? The players could I guess and then pay themselves, but lets see how that works out for them.

At the end of the day I want to see my TEAM win the Stanley Cup. I could really care less if Jason Spezza wins the Hart/Richard/Selke Trophy if the Ottawa Senators are sitting in last place.

The players might be the selling factor of the business, but a business is a required for them to have that chance. North America only has one group that is going to pay the players millions of dollars, give them first class facilities, and pay for all their extra crap. Don't like their rules? Go play somewhere else.
And this.

I hate how the players try to dictate things like they run anything or own any part of the industry. The NHL should be allowed to make their own rules...just like the player should be allowed to leave and play in another league if he doesn't like it.

Every single player makes so much money...to the average of about 2.6 million per player. Not every owner makes money. I would worry about making sure every team is able to break even before i would worry about making sure that player makes 2.6 million instead of 2.4 million.

Regardless of what CBA is signed, every single player will make boatloads of money and be super well off and well compensated and extremely comfortable. However, picking the right CBA is needed for each owner to be comfortable in this business.

The players already all make money with none of them losing any money. So for a second, who cares about players, they're more then fine. Let's worry about stopping the bleeding for certain owners that lose money year in year out.

That's why i'm on the owners side. Every player gets a killer deal playing in the NHL. Not every owner makes money, but every player does. That in itself shows the NHLPA has to change their proposal towards the owners side to make it fair.

If players are getting 50% of revenue(57% now), 100% of them are making money, but only 50% of owners are making money, then the CBA needs to be slanted towards the owners to make it fair.

Besides, they own the show, they should be able to change the rules if they want. Damn greedy union.

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09-25-2012, 11:05 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
This.



And this.

I hate how the players try to dictate things like they run anything or own any part of the industry. The NHL should be allowed to make their own rules...just like the player should be allowed to leave and play in another league if he doesn't like it.

Every single player makes so much money...to the average of about 2.6 million per player. Not every owner makes money. I would worry about making sure every team is able to break even before i would worry about making sure that player makes 2.6 million instead of 2.4 million.

Regardless of what CBA is signed, every single player will make boatloads of money and be super well off and well compensated and extremely comfortable. However, picking the right CBA is needed for each owner to be comfortable in this business.

The players already all make money with none of them losing any money. So for a second, who cares about players, they're more then fine. Let's worry about stopping the bleeding for certain owners that lose money year in year out.

That's why i'm on the owners side. Every player gets a killer deal playing in the NHL. Not every owner makes money, but every player does. That in itself shows the NHLPA has to change their proposal towards the owners side to make it fair.

If players are getting 50% of revenue(57% now), 100% of them are making money, but only 50% of owners are making money, then the CBA needs to be slanted towards the owners to make it fair.

Besides, they own the show, they should be able to change the rules if they want. Damn greedy union.
Exactly, the owners take all the risk while the players get guaranteed contracts. If the players don't work to the their full potential or if they want to leave they can pretty much do so and still get paid. If the league shut down all the teams that don't make money a quarter of the union would be out of a job, yet the union does not want to compensate for this.

The owners should be a little more flexible IMO, but the players are being the most unrealistic here. Not surprising, people in Ottawa are supportive of the union with this being a government town. Most government employes spend their day arguing things are not on their job description or kissing ass and spreading rumors for promotions, rather then doing real work : )

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09-25-2012, 11:11 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
This.



And this.

I hate how the players try to dictate things like they run anything or own any part of the industry. The NHL should be allowed to make their own rules...just like the player should be allowed to leave and play in another league if he doesn't like it.

Every single player makes so much money...to the average of about 2.6 million per player. Not every owner makes money. I would worry about making sure every team is able to break even before i would worry about making sure that player makes 2.6 million instead of 2.4 million.

Regardless of what CBA is signed, every single player will make boatloads of money and be super well off and well compensated and extremely comfortable. However, picking the right CBA is needed for each owner to be comfortable in this business.

The players already all make money with none of them losing any money. So for a second, who cares about players, they're more then fine. Let's worry about stopping the bleeding for certain owners that lose money year in year out.

That's why i'm on the owners side. Every player gets a killer deal playing in the NHL. Not every owner makes money, but every player does. That in itself shows the NHLPA has to change their proposal towards the owners side to make it fair.

If players are getting 50% of revenue(57% now), 100% of them are making money, but only 50% of owners are making money, then the CBA needs to be slanted towards the owners to make it fair.

Besides, they own the show, they should be able to change the rules if they want. Damn greedy union.
Do you honestly believe any owner is losing money? Where does this come from. The Florida Panthers get 200 fans a game and they increased their payroll by $15 million last season - make sense of that for me. You are losing money than you add $15 million more onto your payroll, what does that tell you?

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09-25-2012, 11:26 AM
  #40
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Players that signed long term deals that went past the current CBA had no idea what they were signing up for....

Did they not remember the concessions made at the last CBA negotiations??

They not remember the 24% rollback??

If they thought, going forward, that nothing in the CBA would change, then they arent very smart

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09-25-2012, 11:31 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Do you honestly believe any owner is losing money? Where does this come from. The Florida Panthers get 200 fans a game and they increased their payroll by $15 million last season - make sense of that for me. You are losing money than you add $15 million more onto your payroll, what does that tell you?
When Owners like Eugene Melnyk "claim" they need to get to the 2nd round of the playoffs to make a profit, when his building is sold out most nights, have new jerseys on every 2nd fan in the stands, every concession stand is jammed before games and both intermissions... How can you think the Panthers with 200 fans a game are making money??

Salary floor needs to be met, if the owner loses his shirt, thats his fault.

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09-25-2012, 11:34 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Do you honestly believe any owner is losing money? Where does this come from. The Florida Panthers get 200 fans a game and they increased their payroll by $15 million last season - make sense of that for me. You are losing money than you add $15 million more onto your payroll, what does that tell you?
That the team is trying to reach the cap floor. They're under it now.

You're smart tuna, you could have thought about the cap floor.

Also, because you're smart(i'm not chirping you, i know you are, i've read your posts) you would know that there is a vicious circle. If your team sucks, and you're losing money...and there's a cap floor, you're only option that isn't status quo would be to ice a better team, and hope for more revenue then expenses. It doesn't always work.

Just because a team offers contracts doesn't mean they're making money. It can mean they're trying to ice a competitive team to attract more fans to make more revenue or it can be something as simple as needing to reach the floor.

It's not all as black and white as you make it seem. There's a lot of grey in there that you weren't thinking of.

If the CBA had one more year, we would have been stuck offering some AHL bum 3 million to reach the cap floor. Just because the sens signed some scrub to a huge contract to reach the floor doesn't mean the team is sitting on $millions.

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09-25-2012, 11:38 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Legend Killer View Post
When Owners like Eugene Melnyk "claim" they need to get to the 2nd round of the playoffs to make a profit, when his building is sold out most nights, have new jerseys on every 2nd fan in the stands, every concession stand is jammed before games and both intermissions... How can you think the Panthers with 200 fans a game are making money??

Salary floor needs to be met, if the owner loses his shirt, thats his fault.
This.

Plus the owners aren't relying on their NHL teams for the bulk of their income. The Florida Panthers organization could be bleeding money out the nose and the owner would just have to keep funding it with his other businesses hoping to eventually turn things around. That is why you either see teams go bankrupt or their owners sell the team because eventually the losses just become to much to overcome.

Just because a team has to spend money to reach the floor does not mean that the team is swimming in money. It just means they got money from somewhere to spend.

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09-25-2012, 11:42 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
This.

Plus the owners aren't relying on their NHL teams for the bulk of their income. The Florida Panthers organization could be bleeding money out the nose and the owner would just have to keep funding it with his other businesses hoping to eventually turn things around. That is why you either see teams go bankrupt or their owners sell the team because eventually the losses just become to much to overcome.

Just because a team has to spend money to reach the floor does not mean that the team is swimming in money. It just means they got money from somewhere to spend.
Often times investors...which means they go in debt...but yeah, i'll just stand on the players side even though they make more then the owners combined and have no risk. im just that smart.

Owners are losing money and teams could eventually fold? WHO CARES! let's make sure the players average salary goes up from the 2.6 million even if it means teams go bankrupt.

**** the owners for spending their own money to cover their teams losses year in year out to allow us fans to have NHL hockey near us!

I'm so smart.

Players obviously need their salaries raised to $3,000,000.00 per player per year so i hope the owners cave and the players stand tall even if it means franchise fold,fans lose their team, and players lose their jobs. Players deserve this so they will fight for it and good on them! The NHL deserves to fold! The owners are stupid to invest in hockey, they should pay.

Logic for the win.


Last edited by jbeck5: 09-25-2012 at 11:48 AM.
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09-25-2012, 11:59 AM
  #45
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I don't feel sorry for anyone of them, players or owners. A battle between 2 rich parties on who wants to be more rich? Yea sorry if I don't feel any sympathy for anyone in this

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09-25-2012, 12:13 PM
  #46
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I don't feel sorry for anyone of them, players or owners. A battle between 2 rich parties on who wants to be more rich? Yea sorry if I don't feel any sympathy for anyone in this
I feel bad for the players being so stupid. They can't win this. Some owners are better off not having a season and collecting their share of that tv deal. Whereas none of the players are better off. So they are already losing as we speak. Might as well give up the dying battle already and stop pissing off the fans. They'll fight till the end and we'll miss a season for them getting nothing in the end to the point we fans are stuck saying "thanks *******s! you weren't happy with your 2.6 million average salary! you wanted more?"

Players will decline every offer, and eventually accept something the owners already offered early making the wasted season a complete waste thanks to the players. Some owners are losing money. They CAN'T budge. The players are making millions, therefore they CAN budge. The players are being dumb by losing more money by declining the owners offer then they would by just accepting there offer. I don't blame the players, i blame their stupidity.

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09-25-2012, 12:26 PM
  #47
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The players should be extremity thankful to share a pie where they would get 45% of a 3+ billion dollar industry.

Without the owners there is no NHL.
And without the players, nobody watches and tunes in to something else.

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09-25-2012, 12:32 PM
  #48
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This argument goes both ways.

The NHL can't sell it's service/product without the players. The players are the face of the company. That's much different than your typical company. I'm sorry, but I don't understand the comparisons to the "regular world". As someone studying to be a businessman in the sports industry, the first think they teach you is how different it is than the regular business world.
The way I see it doesnt go both ways. The owners could hire scabs and then we would have the best available players playing and eventually would would accept them as NHL'ers. The players cannot replace the owners.

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09-25-2012, 12:51 PM
  #49
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You realize he also called himself an animal right? People are making way too big of a deal out of this guy's analogy. Basically he meant the owners run the show and the players play the game. Really don't get what all of the fuss is about.
I didnt see this until now... Exactly...

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09-25-2012, 12:53 PM
  #50
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And without the players, nobody watches and tunes in to something else.
So then the owners could just go back to there much more profitable businesses, and not have to worry about losing money??

It can be spun anyway you want to...

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