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Old
09-25-2012, 01:10 PM
  #51
Wondercarrot
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
By the way, does anyone else think it's kind of funny that Devellano's analogy essentially compares players to animals? Figured we'd be above that kind of thinking by now... considering that's the same kind of logic used by slavers back in the 1700s.
yes, its very similar. except that the slaves in this case earn over a million dollars per year on average.

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09-25-2012, 01:56 PM
  #52
corksens
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Of course this is not true - and what numbers do you have to back it up? Eugene Melnyk spends his time on a beach in the Caribbean watching the Sens from a beach bar - if that's not rich what is?

The players deserve every penny they make - they are the game not the owners. Nobody cares about any NHL owner.
Of course he is rich - that's how he bought the team.

But he doesn't make mega bucks by owning the team - and he could certainly make more if his money was in another venture.

How can you possibly argue this?

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09-25-2012, 01:59 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Devellano is a pig, this type of attitude is from a human completely disconnected from reality as we know it.

If you want to compare Sidney Crosby or Erik Karlsson to a cow ahead - the players are making the owners rich and the woners are making the players rich, this is not a situation where players are animals that get invited to eat at the masters table - Crosby would probably make more money playing in the KHL then the NHL.
I would argue that the players are not making the owners rich, in fact most owners do not profit heavily from owning a NHL franchise.

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09-25-2012, 02:01 PM
  #54
corksens
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Do you honestly believe any owner is losing money? Where does this come from. The Florida Panthers get 200 fans a game and they increased their payroll by $15 million last season - make sense of that for me. You are losing money than you add $15 million more onto your payroll, what does that tell you?
What's to "believe"? Facts are facts. Most teams run at a deficit and need auxillary income from other related ventures (like Melnyk owning the SBP) to yield anything at all.

Hell, the Sens as an organization would be ecstatic to make 5 million dollars a year when all is said and done...about one less million than the GUARANTEED 7 million that Jason Spezza will make.

I don't begrudge anyone for making that kind of money, but I find it hard to stomach that most teams make no money at all, yet every single player (whether injured, or lack of performance) gets a paycheque dropped in their account.

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09-25-2012, 02:03 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
It worked for Lemieux and Gretzky - maybe the players should start their own league.

The thing is here is the owners don't control the entire process - the players are a huge part in the game, it's not a take it or leave it situation because the players can't be replaced like cows can be replaced. Would you pay $100 to see our AHL team play in Ottawa? Exactly, you pay and watch the players and that is where the value of the NHL begins and ends - you want to have Andre Benoit as the afce of your franchise, see how much money you make selling him as opposed to Karlsson.
I am sure Gretzky would say his experience as an owner was nothing but positive. The only way he profited was by being paid as the coach.

If they used scabs relativity would set in, the AHL players would be playing against players of their own caliber therefore it would still be entertaining.

Go watch a OHL game, 80% of the players wont play in the NHL yet the product is still good and the games are fun to watch.

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09-25-2012, 02:40 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by corksens View Post
Of course he is rich - that's how he bought the team.

But he doesn't make mega bucks by owning the team - and he could certainly make more if his money was in another venture.

How can you possibly argue this?
How can argue this - you don't have any numbers to prove your point - Melnyk bought the team and the stadium for something like $80 million, he's probably made 4X that already in the 6 years he's owned the team.

There was a global economic collapse and hockey grew it's revenues by 2 Billion dollars, all the owners are making huge money and any crying of them being poor is complete BS as far as I am concerned

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09-25-2012, 02:44 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
How can argue this - you don't have any numbers to prove your point - Melnyk bought the team and the stadium for something like $80 million, he's probably made 4X that already in the 6 years he's owned the team.

There was a global economic collapse and hockey grew it's revenues by 2 Billion dollars, all the owners are making huge money and any crying of them being poor is complete BS as far as I am concerned
There is a huge difference between revenue and profit. You are right, there was a huge global economic collapse and the average NHL salary jumped from $1.5M to $2.5M...the players are doing just fine.

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09-25-2012, 03:01 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by TeamRenzo View Post
There is a huge difference between revenue and profit. You are right, there was a huge global economic collapse and the average NHL salary jumped from $1.5M to $2.5M...the players are doing just fine.
Exactly, if the players income doubled, what do you think the owners income did? I don't see any NHL owners crying poor this time, this is simply a money grab by them -this isn't about the economics of the NHL which are just fine, it is about the owners getting more for themselves by getting the players to subsidize their incomes.

Alfie is playing for $1million this year, Karlsson for $6.5 when he could of easily signed a $100 + million offer sheet - the players aren't greedy, the owners are

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09-25-2012, 03:02 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
How can argue this - you don't have any numbers to prove your point - Melnyk bought the team and the stadium for something like $80 million, he's probably made 4X that already in the 6 years he's owned the team.

There was a global economic collapse and hockey grew it's revenues by 2 Billion dollars, all the owners are making huge money and any crying of them being poor is complete BS as far as I am concerned
Why do you speak of revenue as profit?

Revenue could have gone up 20 billion dollars for all i care, but if expenses grow as much,or more, the league isn't making any money.

Sure, the revenue has gone through the roof, but you ignore that that has made the payrolls go up(which are expenses) and that non hockey expenses have gone up even more. owners aren't making money like you think they are.

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Old
09-25-2012, 03:13 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Exactly, if the players income doubled, what do you think the owners income did? I don't see any NHL owners crying poor this time, this is simply a money grab by them -this isn't about the economics of the NHL which are just fine, it is about the owners getting more for themselves by getting the players to subsidize their incomes.

Alfie is playing for $1million this year, Karlsson for $6.5 when he could of easily signed a $100 + million offer sheet - the players aren't greedy, the owners are
Huh?

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09-25-2012, 03:20 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by TeamRenzo View Post
Huh?
I think Tuna might be Allan Walsh

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Old
09-25-2012, 03:25 PM
  #62
corksens
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
How can argue this - you don't have any numbers to prove your point - Melnyk bought the team and the stadium for something like $80 million, he's probably made 4X that already in the 6 years he's owned the team.

There was a global economic collapse and hockey grew it's revenues by 2 Billion dollars, all the owners are making huge money and any crying of them being poor is complete BS as far as I am concerned
I don't know where the hell you get your numbers from, but the rumored amount Melnyk paid for the Senators was $100m and $30m for the arena. The franchise is now rumored to be worth about $200m according to Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/list/) which which means he has POTENTIALLY doubled his money...nowhere near "4X" his investment. He's also owned the team for 9 years - a decade by April of this season.

That's about a 10% ROI - on a year to year basis. Not great for a guy with deep pockets such as his...all of this while ignoring the yearly shortfall that the Senators run at, and the fact that to realize any of this investment he has to sell the team (and something tells me it's not an easy thing to off-load).

Of course, we're ignoring the fact that the previous owner/shareholders of their team lost their friggin' shirts with the sale of the Sens to Melnyk. So while one owner prospered, others failed.

According to that link above Melnyk and the Senators made 2.6 million last year...about 400k less than the superstar Chris Phillips made in guaranteed money.

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Old
09-25-2012, 03:27 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Exactly, if the players income doubled, what do you think the owners income did? I don't see any NHL owners crying poor this time, this is simply a money grab by them -this isn't about the economics of the NHL which are just fine, it is about the owners getting more for themselves by getting the players to subsidize their incomes.

Alfie is playing for $1million this year, Karlsson for $6.5 when he could of easily signed a $100 + million offer sheet - the players aren't greedy, the owners are
You don't get this whole "finance" thing, do you?

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Old
09-25-2012, 03:42 PM
  #64
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But margins are getting squeezed. During the 2010-11 season the league posted operating income (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) of $126 million, 21% lower than the previous year. Main reason: Player costs increased 11%, to $59 million. Last season 18 of the league’s 30 teams lost money even before they had to pay bank loans or write down assets, compared with 16 the prior year.

The league’s salary cap, set at 57% of revenue, is too high for some teams to be profitable . As a result, expect the National Hockey League to undergo a cantankerous labor negotiations when the owners and players union begin to hammer our a new collective bargaining agreement to replace the current six-year deal that expires in September . The NHL must move much closer to the 48% model the NFL agreed to before this season or the 50-50 revenue split National Basketball Association’s owners and players recently agreed to.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozan...ness-of-hockey
18 teams lost money.

18.

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Old
09-25-2012, 04:17 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by corksens View Post
18 teams lost money.

18.
The average NHL team is worth 47% more than it was before the lockout that cancelled the 2004-05 season.

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09-25-2012, 04:31 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
The average NHL team is worth 47% more than it was before the lockout that cancelled the 2004-05 season.
Find people to sell those teams to.

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Old
09-25-2012, 04:56 PM
  #67
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The owners are the ones who make the game possible: they own the teams, they pay the players, they own the arenas (well most of them do), they pay for the travel and the equipment.

The players are behaving like children: the owners got their way last time, now it's their turn apparently. They don't negotiate until there is a month left, they make outlandish proposals (at least the NHL has made an effort after their own ridiculous first offer), they cry that escrow (they're getting all of last year's back by the way) is the same as a rollback (which they don't get back), they ask for set increases in salary and then say they are making sacrifices because they want the NHL to assume it's going to grow at 7% annual rate...

I'd tell the players that they can keep the 1.8 billion they made last year but they're going to buy their own equipment, pay for their own flights and book their own hotels then.

The players are responsible for the lockout, spoiled brats.

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09-25-2012, 04:59 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Legend Killer View Post
Find people to sell those teams to.
Is that the point or is the point that there is a ton of money being pumped into the NHL?

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Old
09-25-2012, 05:05 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Is that the point or is the point that there is a ton of money being pumped into the NHL?
Nobody is arguing that there is a lot of money getting "pumped" into the NHL. The issue is that there is too much money getting spent! Revenues do not equal profits...
What he meant is that no one wants to buy an NHL team because most of them lose money, and only a very few make good money.

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09-25-2012, 06:24 PM
  #70
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Is that the point or is the point that there is a ton of money being pumped into the NHL?
The point is. If NHL franchises were as profitable as you are arguing that they are. Businessmen would be lining up to buy them. You notice how many groups show interest in teams and then back out when they look at the books? NHL owners dont make near the money you think they do.

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09-25-2012, 07:01 PM
  #71
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I don't side with the players one bit. They get paid handsomely and their hefty pay cheques reflect the revenues they help the owners generate. If the players want profit sharing then why don't they pay their share for the cost of the arenas, the staff and all the other overhead the owners are responsible for? Owners are owners and players are players. They have distinct roles. Just my opinion.

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Old
09-25-2012, 08:48 PM
  #72
corksens
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
The average NHL team is worth 47% more than it was before the lockout that cancelled the 2004-05 season.
The return on investment most of these guys will realize is still far less than other avenues.

The owners (on rare exception) don't buy teams to make money. They buy them as toys.

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Old
09-25-2012, 08:49 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Is that the point or is the point that there is a ton of money being pumped into the NHL?
I posted "numbers" and you don't respond to them.

Why do I attempt to debate/argue on this board again?

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Old
09-25-2012, 09:07 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by corksens View Post
The return on investment most of these guys will realize is still far less than other avenues.

The owners (on rare exception) don't buy teams to make money. They buy them as toys.
Pretty much a sports team is a billionaire's "sports car" because really they have so much money that they've already got like forty real cars, so what fun are they?

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Old
09-25-2012, 09:17 PM
  #75
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yes, its very similar. except that the slaves in this case earn over a million dollars per year on average.
I've pretty clearly stated that the logic used by Devellano is the same logic used to defend slavery (one group deserves money, the other doesn't). I've already agreed that the outcomes are very different. Your sarcastic quip is misplaced.

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