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In (Partial) Defense Of Scott Howson's Recent Trade History

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Old
09-24-2012, 06:30 PM
  #201
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09-24-2012, 06:43 PM
  #202
Robert Theodorson
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Howson is terrible.

However if you want to blame someone in the grand scheme of things for why the Blue Jackets are as bad as they are you need to look at their scouting and player development staff, those guys that don't get their names printed.

By far and away the worst in the league for an incredibly long time.

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09-25-2012, 09:27 AM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans420 View Post
That's what he undeniably and inexcusably was at the time. That he bounced back when reunited with his BFF merely means that LA was the right place to go. Who knows how he would have done anywhere else?

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09-25-2012, 11:51 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
I only read four comments and they were all positive, so i stopped reading assuming it would only god own hill from there.

to the OP:

Great post. I"m a bit of a closet Blue Jackets fan (everyone loves an underdog) and my take was: At the time of trade, the carter trade was fine, a 40-50 point forward and a first for a consistent 60-80 point forward? not bad.

Then of course, as you stated, it all went to hell. Even at the draft time it was pretty close to a loss, add in the carter issues and yah, it didn't look good.

The LA trade was great. A very good d man and a first for the shell of a 60+ point forward? sign me up. that was a definite "everybody wins" trade.

Finally, the nash trade was not bad. Howson DID shoot himself in the foot by making that trade request public, and probably could have gotten a little bit better, but even then, a very decent return (i'm also an inexplicable fan of Anisimov so i'm a little biased).

Good too see someone sharing the view, though i do think Howson is quite bad as a gm, maybe not due to this string of trades, but someone must be responsible for the piss poor development rate of their players
That's the thing, all the trades were fine however its the moves that Howson didn't make, not the moves he did make that were the problem.

It doesn't matter how good or bad your lineup is, when your starting goalie puts up a save% of 0.894 it makes your team suck. The Rangers (top in the East) would have finished 2nd last if they had Mason in net.

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09-25-2012, 04:28 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Generally View Post
he's also not the type of player that can drag a team kicking and screaming to the playoffs whether they like it or not. unrealistic expectations from management to the fans through and through, time and time again. you don't add jeff carter and james wisniewski to a bottom feeder and expect to make the playoffs.
Bingo

Carter isn't Richards. He is a support player, the last piece to the puzzle.
Not a guy you build around, but a guy you add to an established core

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09-25-2012, 09:36 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Bingo

Carter isn't Richards. He is a support player, the last piece to the puzzle.
Not a guy you build around, but a guy you add to an established core
Once again, we didn't need him to "drag the team kicking and screaming to the playoffs". We would have been perfectly content with him actually playing the game of hockey to the level of his ability and with a professional attitude, even if that still wasn't enough to get us into the playoffs.

That he did not do even that - and that this keeps getting handwaved over by folks who hardly if ever saw him play here - is really rather infuriating.

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Old
09-25-2012, 10:18 PM
  #207
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Carter is a joke I think we all know that, sure Philly screwed him but he signed the contract and his behavior with the Jackets was very unprofessional

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Old
09-25-2012, 11:47 PM
  #208
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As a flyers fan, I can sort of see where the Carter hate comes from. As stated, he does have a lazy looking stride, and it seemed that whenever the playoffs rolled around in Philadelphia he would become invisible. People are quick to point out that he was more often than not injured in the post season in Philadelphia, so I tend to cut him some slack in that regard.

But it remains that, injuries or not, he never really performed when it counted in Philadelphia, and watching him play for the kings made me sour towards him (mixed with his play/rumored conduct in Columbus).

So while I can see how many people can defend him for his actions before LA, to me, his image has been at the very least somewhat tainted.

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Old
09-26-2012, 12:51 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Once again, we didn't need him to "drag the team kicking and screaming to the playoffs". We would have been perfectly content with him actually playing the game of hockey to the level of his ability and with a professional attitude, even if that still wasn't enough to get us into the playoffs.

That he did not do even that - and that this keeps getting handwaved over by folks who hardly if ever saw him play here - is really rather infuriating.
It's not being "handwaved over" - it falls squarely under the heading of No One Cares, in the sub-folder marked "Howson's Research Failures".

Carter pouted. Yeah, it's unprofessional. Carter might possibly act immature and unprofessional at the best of times? Sure caught everyone but Howson and Co. by surprise when he didn't handle that trade all that well. In LA's he is right where he wants to be - no pressure of having to lead, just scoring the occasional goals. I'm betting he gets 40+ in the next full season in this enviornment.

If you don't think that your team's braintrust thouroughly screwed that pooch by first making the trade, then allowing him to wallow in it without any other action than catering to his trade whims, boy, you have a lot of confidence in a group that sure seems like it doesn't know what it is doing.

In LA a few years ago Dean Lombardi was very vocal about staying out of the Dany Heatley sweepstakes because he didn't think his young group was in the right frame of mind yet to deal with that kind of personality. And Heatley didn't have the same kind of baggage Carter was carrying. Howson could very easily have made the same determination about his roster, which in retrospect you will admit weren't prepared to deal with that kind of personality conflict.

Columbus has made desperate decisions instead of disciplined ones. Rushing young players in to duty, signing guys like Wisnewskie to basically bribed-to-play in Columbus level contracts, the misguided deal for Carter, taking too little for Nash - all moves of a desperate man not prepared to do what it takes to put his team in place to grow beyond just being "competitive".

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09-26-2012, 02:31 AM
  #210
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I never agreed with the Carter trade. I thought Columbus would've been better off rebuilding.
Considering what Columbus was getting out of Carter, the trade for JJ was incredible for Columbus.
I thought the price on Nash was way too high and I thought Columbus should've been happy with what they got for him.

Howson's ability as a GM hasn't been as big of a problem as Columbus' ability to attract quality free agents.

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Old
09-26-2012, 07:24 AM
  #211
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How does this account for the presence of Craig Patrick, who by some accounts, guided the decision making for trades and player acquisitions since his hire date.

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09-26-2012, 07:36 AM
  #212
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Scott Howson got the reputation he has now because of the revelations he made at the deadline. It's not a small mistake, it's a terrible blunder made out of a lack of judgement and it will cost the Jackets for years to come, you just don't undermine the value of your franchise player before trading him.

You bring up some nice points in your post OP, but I'm still convinced Howson shouldn't be a GM in the NHL.

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Old
09-26-2012, 09:11 AM
  #213
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The Carter trade wasnt that bad all things considered but the Nash trade was one of the worse in NHL history.

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09-26-2012, 09:30 AM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DekeLikeYouMeanIt View Post
The biggest problem with trading for Carter wasn't his off ice problems but the fact that he and Nash don't complement each other on the ice. They play the exact same way ("power scoring") but not in harmony. They both need a pure playmaker to be at their best and Columbus didn't have enough to separate them on 2 lines or giving them a legit playmaking linemate.
But that's impossible to predict. Joffrey Lupul and Phil Kessel play a very similar game (pure scoring) and would both ostensibly need a playmaker in between them, yet they were one of the highest scoring duos in the league last year. Sometimes similar styles complement each other and sometimes they don't. Unfortunately for Columbus, they're a walking testament to Murphy's Law.

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09-26-2012, 09:37 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by habs_24x View Post
The Carter trade wasnt that bad all things considered but the Nash trade was one of the worse in NHL history.
Until you see how Erixon and the first turn out at the NHL level, or how Nash does in NY, it's way too early to call a trade terrible.

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09-26-2012, 09:45 AM
  #216
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In LA a few years ago Dean Lombardi was very vocal about staying out of the Dany Heatley sweepstakes because he didn't think his young group was in the right frame of mind yet to deal with that kind of personality. And Heatley didn't have the same kind of baggage Carter was carrying. Howson could very easily have made the same determination about his roster, which in retrospect you will admit weren't prepared to deal with that kind of personality conflict.
Carter - alleged to have alcohol/social problems
Heatley - killed a teammate (and seriously injured himself in the process), then demanded out of the team that stuck by him

Which is more serious?

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How does this account for the presence of Craig Patrick, who by some accounts, guided the decision making for trades and player acquisitions since his hire date.
Patrick himself has spoken about basically observing Howson from the side, not actively participating in anything.

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Originally Posted by habs_24x View Post
The Carter trade wasnt that bad all things considered but the Nash trade was one of the worse in NHL history.
Let's check the standings and stats to see if you're right. Oh, wait...

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09-26-2012, 10:31 AM
  #217
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Carter - alleged to have alcohol/social problems
Heatley - killed a teammate (and seriously injured himself in the process), then demanded out of the team that stuck by him

Which is more serious?
Heatley wrecked his car and killed one of his best friends and wanted out of the city it happened in. If you're actually going to blame him for that, I don't know what to tell you.

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09-26-2012, 10:56 AM
  #218
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I still can't believe we got Couturier, Voracek and Cousins for McFloater

I feel really bad for BJ fans because of the way he whined his way out of the city.

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09-26-2012, 12:05 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Heatley wrecked his car and killed one of his best friends and wanted out of the city it happened in. If you're actually going to blame him for that, I don't know what to tell you.
He demanded a trade out of Ottawa, (the team that gave him a new lease on life after Atlanta) after they just signed him to a mega contract (front loaded no less), then refused a trade to a team he aledgedly gave the sens permission to negotiate with.

I don't think anyone blames him for asking for a trade out of Atlanta, its the way the trade requuest/demand out of Ottawa was handled that scared Lombardi away from him.

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09-26-2012, 01:38 PM
  #220
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Heatley wrecked his car and killed one of his best friends and wanted out of the city it happened in. If you're actually going to blame him for that, I don't know what to tell you.
That excuse might work if he didn't cry his way out of Ottawa too.

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09-26-2012, 04:44 PM
  #221
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That excuse might work if he didn't cry his way out of Ottawa too.
"Excuse?" I think you're severely underplaying the psychological trauma of being responsible for someone's death. Like, jesus, that's some pretty heavy stuff. What happened in Ottawa is a completely separate event. I can't believe you're actually trying to compare the two just to push some idea you have about Heatley being a crybaby or something. You're a pretty scary human being.

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09-26-2012, 08:03 PM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
It's not being "handwaved over" - it falls squarely under the heading of No One Cares, in the sub-folder marked "Howson's Research Failures".
And that "no one cares" would be just fine if folks just left it at that instead of using it as justification for the usual insane contentless fact-free blather about the Blue Jackets. See also: the whole damn point of this thread.

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Carter pouted. Yeah, it's unprofessional. Carter might possibly act immature and unprofessional at the best of times? Sure caught everyone but Howson and Co. by surprise when he didn't handle that trade all that well. In LA's he is right where he wants to be - no pressure of having to lead, just scoring the occasional goals. I'm betting he gets 40+ in the next full season in this enviornment.
There's a vast, vast difference between "unhappy but plays anyways" (which we have seen several times here) and "unhappy and hardly bothers to show up" (which is what Carter gave us).

The former should have been predictable. The latter would be predicted only by the hyperpessimistic and the insane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
If you don't think that your team's braintrust thouroughly screwed that pooch by first making the trade, then allowing him to wallow in it without any other action than catering to his trade whims, boy, you have a lot of confidence in a group that sure seems like it doesn't know what it is doing.
"Without any other action"? Scott Arniel lost his job because he couldn't turn that situation around. Don't give me this "they did nothing else" garbage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
In LA a few years ago Dean Lombardi was very vocal about staying out of the Dany Heatley sweepstakes because he didn't think his young group was in the right frame of mind yet to deal with that kind of personality. And Heatley didn't have the same kind of baggage Carter was carrying. Howson could very easily have made the same determination about his roster, which in retrospect you will admit weren't prepared to deal with that kind of personality conflict.
This much is partially true (although the Heatley comparison is a bit excessive), and is something Howson should have - to a degree - anticipated. But that only explains the general downturn. It does not explain Carter being the laziest player on NHL ice anywhere for 33 games.

I am not claiming that Howson is somehow free of culpability for making the Carter deal. I am saying, however, that he made a calculation that might have been reasonable, failed in that, and then watched as things turned eleventy billion times worse than anyone could have ever imagined because Carter decided to be a snotty child instead of a professional hockey player. By contrast, Lombardi had to make a similar calculation that Carter would rebound as soon as he was reunited with his BFF, took that risk, and it worked out better than anyone could have realistically imagined.

I maintain that if Carter had gone to any other team in the League his career would be on the ropes by now.

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Originally Posted by JesusBouillon View Post
Scott Howson got the reputation he has now because of the revelations he made at the deadline. It's not a small mistake, it's a terrible blunder made out of a lack of judgement and it will cost the Jackets for years to come, you just don't undermine the value of your franchise player before trading him.

You bring up some nice points in your post OP, but I'm still convinced Howson shouldn't be a GM in the NHL.
To be fair, I think we can and probably should do better as well. That trade deadline press conference had a similar affect on my faith in the guy (and is why Mayor Bee now goes by "The Last Howsonite" despite my being the one to start this thread ).

That said, the folks being picked up since have a much more coherent built-in team identity thing going, and so I'm kind of curious as to how that experiment goes first. And I strongly object to folks characterizing him as some sort of drooling moron, or the Worst Evar. Hell, he's not even the worst ever GM in franchise history.

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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
But that's impossible to predict. Joffrey Lupul and Phil Kessel play a very similar game (pure scoring) and would both ostensibly need a playmaker in between them, yet they were one of the highest scoring duos in the league last year. Sometimes similar styles complement each other and sometimes they don't. Unfortunately for Columbus, they're a walking testament to Murphy's Law.
Heh. Last year's law was basically "even if it couldn't possibly go wrong, it will."

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Old
09-26-2012, 09:03 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
There's a vast, vast difference between "unhappy but plays anyways" (which we have seen several times here) and "unhappy and hardly bothers to show up" (which is what Carter gave us).

The former should have been predictable. The latter would be predicted only by the hyperpessimistic and the insane.
i legit stopped reading here...that is utter BS...yeah he was aloof but he was still on pace for 32 goals even after his injuries...a hat trick against Nashville who we seemingly NEVER come to play against...i really get tired of reading you saying this over and over...did he want to be here, no, obviously, but the guy was scoring at a pace higher than anyone else on our team...

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Old
09-26-2012, 10:42 PM
  #224
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Lot of revisionist history in here.

The Nash trade was essentially proposed numerous times in the Nash trade thread saga only to be met with flaming and outrage.

I don't think it was that bad per se given Howson's lack of leverage but let's be real; at one point there was realistic discussion around Kreider/Stepan, Hagelin, Del Zotto, and a pick.

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09-26-2012, 11:28 PM
  #225
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Quote:
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i legit stopped reading here...that is utter BS...yeah he was aloof but he was still on pace for 32 goals even after his injuries...a hat trick against Nashville who we seemingly NEVER come to play against...i really get tired of reading you saying this over and over...did he want to be here, no, obviously, but the guy was scoring at a pace higher than anyone else on our team...
Congrats, you've singled out one game out of five or six where he actually played. What about the other 33?

The guy was worse than bad here, he was lazy. No amount of hero worship is going to change that.

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