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Vancouver - Columbus

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Old
09-27-2012, 12:25 PM
  #176
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Who gives a **** what people around here think someone is worth and how they place players in proposals! Are you serious? You think this matters one iota in the real world?

News flash for posters around here: You don't know jack **** about the value of players in real life and it's not your fault. How often are the majority of posters around here dead wrong? The vast majority of the time.

Dougie Hamilton's value is not tarnished in any way by not having played in the NHL yet and that's because NHL teams have "scouts" and "experience" and "forsight" and they know Hamilton is as good as D prospects get.

I gaurantee you if Boston is asking someone about a top pairing defenceman, they're asking for Hamilton in return.

And people ask for a starter's return for Schneider (again, who gives a ****) because the Canucks organization, Mike Gillis, most hockey media types, Alain Vigneault and most Canucks fans and scouts consider him a number one. Is it more logical to beleive them? Of fans on a message board that don't know anything and pump out absurd 'proposals' all day?
Do our opinions here actually ultimately matter? No. But are they based on similarly available information and reasoning? Yes. Therefore there are some parallels to be drawn.

It is impossible to "know about the value of players in real life" because this statement presumes that there is such an objective value. Trades are much more dependent on front office perceptions and roster situations than they are on fantasy values.

Would Dougie Hamilton be asked for in a deal for a top pairing defenseman? Of course; he'd be the projected replacement. But nobody is offering a replacement top-level goaltender to Vancouver for Schneider because Vancouver does not need one. Therefore your example here is deeply flawed. If Vancouver needed and/or wanted a starting goaltender, of course Schneider could expect to be part of the return. Trading the young with potential for the older and experienced has often been part of hockey trades.

The point, though is that Boston is not insisting on a package equivalent to what a #1 blueliner would normally get for Hamilton - partly because he isn't a #1 yet, and partly because they have no desire to trade him because they foresee Chara leaving eventually. You will not see Dougie Hamilton traded for a package of top forwards, for example - which one might expect if Boston was taking the position that they had "a spare" #1 defenseman and other holes that they wanted to fill by trading him - which is akin to what Vancouver is doing with Luongo and Schneider.

And the comparison falls down further because having multiple #1Ds is a massive competitive advantage. There's seven defensemen on the average NHL roster. Plenty of places to play. This is not the case with goaltending.


Asking for a starter's return for Schneider does not dictate what teams are willing to offer or discuss. Vancouver is free to ask for that, but that doesn't mean they'll get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Anyone that puts Alex Edler on Columbus' bottom pairing immediately loses all credibility. Immediately...
Feel free to research it yourself sometime instead of ad-homineming and assuming. Heck, it might help for you to even read the rest of the thread.

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Old
09-27-2012, 12:33 PM
  #177
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Honestly who cares? Edler's value is higher to the Canucks than to the Jackets, he's not going to be traded there.

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09-27-2012, 12:44 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Honestly who cares? Edler's value is higher to the Canucks than to the Jackets, he's not going to be traded there.
True, but any opportunity to ad-hominem back at somebody when they screw up has to be pounced upon by the horde.

Seen it many times, but never quite expected I'd blunder myself into it so badly. It is about as unpleasant an experience as I had imagined.

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09-27-2012, 12:50 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Cory Schneider + Mason Raymond for Ryan Murray.

A strong maybe from the Jacket's area of strength(defense, with Nikitin-Tyutin, as well as JJ, Wiz, and several prospects in the system) for a strong maybe for their area of weakness, as well as some scoring depth.
Bumped, because it probably got overlooked amongst the Edler-misunderstanding.

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09-27-2012, 01:01 PM
  #180
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You can show all the stats you want, point out all the injuries from last year, or even talk about the amazing chemistry some players had with eachother. The point is, Edler is a good enough defenseman that your coaching staff would easily forget the great Blue Jacket pairing of Nikita-Tyutin or the pair or JJ and Wisniewski. Both these pairings have chemistry which is why a trade wouldn't make sense; but is it really too hard to understand that an Edler-Wisniewski/Edler-JJ/Edler-Nikita/Edler-Tyutin would still be an upgrade? Refuting this is actually just amusing at this point.

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Old
09-27-2012, 01:04 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Bumped, because it probably got overlooked amongst the Edler-misunderstanding.
Personally, I don't like the idea of trading players that you just drafted.

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09-27-2012, 01:09 PM
  #182
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Not sure if if came up already but would Edler re-sign with Jackets then?

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09-27-2012, 01:13 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
You can show all the stats you want, point out all the injuries from last year, or even talk about the amazing chemistry some players had with eachother. The point is, Edler is a good enough defenseman that your coaching staff would easily forget the great Blue Jacket pairing of Nikita-Tyutin or the pair or JJ and Wisniewski. Both these pairings have chemistry which is why a trade wouldn't make sense; but is it really too hard to understand that an Edler-Wisniewski/Edler-JJ/Edler-Nikita/Edler-Tyutin would still be an upgrade? Refuting this is actually just amusing at this point.
Almost as amusing as pointing out that it's been repeated ad nauseum that Nikitin, who's extremely limited in his English, blossomed when paired with Tyutin. His play without Tyutin was not as good, although still good.

So yes, the language barrier on the ice as well as the unusual chemistry that Nikitin and Tyutin had right off the bat is a major consideration.

Don't believe me? Watch Edler's goal against Columbus, which came when Nikitin and Moore both took the same side of the ice.

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09-27-2012, 01:24 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Feel free to research it yourself sometime instead of ad-homineming and assuming. Heck, it might help for you to even read the rest of the thread.
I don't need to research, I know the NHL, I know Columbus' roster and Alexander Edler would not be on a bottom pairing. The end. He's one of the Canucks' (an elite team) best defenceman, and when things are clicking, he is their best. But guys like Tyutin, Nikitin and James Wisneiwski are going to play ahead of him? No freaking way. This guy would be a top pairing defenceman on Columbus and I don't care about their current pairings. In my opinion he's better than any of them, and normally you play the best players the most. This is a 50-point, 20+ minute a night guy that plays in all situations for a top team, can make break-out passes and lay massive hits, with size and reach. You give him to Todd Richards and he'd be among your top dmen, beleive me.

If Edler went to Columbus tomorrow and the season started and Edler wasn't on the top pair, Richards doesn't deserve a job.

And if the rest of your posts in this thread randomly meander without touching on any of the actual points as your reply to mine did, I'll skip it thanks.

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09-27-2012, 01:45 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Bumped, because it probably got overlooked amongst the Edler-misunderstanding.

Raymond has very little value right now. Also, Columbus is rebuilding. Don't see them trading their #2 overall pick for Schneider at this point.

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09-27-2012, 01:53 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Bumped, because it probably got overlooked amongst the Edler-misunderstanding.
No chance CBJ do that, they're going to keep Murray until they know what they have in him.

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09-27-2012, 04:34 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Almost as amusing as pointing out that it's been repeated ad nauseum that Nikitin, who's extremely limited in his English, blossomed when paired with Tyutin. His play without Tyutin was not as good, although still good.

So yes, the language barrier on the ice as well as the unusual chemistry that Nikitin and Tyutin had right off the bat is a major consideration.

Don't believe me? Watch Edler's goal against Columbus, which came when Nikitin and Moore both took the same side of the ice.
No i've read this as well.

You must be one of the very few that actually believe Columbus couldn't fit Edler in their top 4. I'm not the one reaching here my friend and I apologize I keep repeating it.

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09-27-2012, 06:15 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
I don't need to research, I know the NHL, I know Columbus' roster
Judging by your responses so far... no you don't. Your reply consists of about 10% "IMO" and 90% "I just ****ing know and you don't."

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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
and Alexander Edler would not be on a bottom pairing. The end.
Compelling! And yet potentially awkward, seeing as though he would indisputably be at a minimum duking it out with JMFJ for the same position on the blueline.

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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
He's one of the Canucks' (an elite team) best defenceman,
Boston is an elite team (arguably moreso than Vancouver). Edmonton is a poor team that is not doing well (arguably worse than Columbus). Milan Lucic is arguably Boston's best winger. Does that therefore mean that Lucic would be Edmonton's best winger?

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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
But guys like Tyutin, Nikitin and James Wisneiwski are going to play ahead of him? No freaking way.
Nikitin and Wisniewski play the right side, which is where Edler is at a significant disadvantage. And Tyutin is suffering from Did Not Do The Research here.

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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
This guy would be a top pairing defenceman on Columbus and I don't care about their current pairings.
It's statements like this that really convince me that you know Columbus very well.

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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
In my opinion he's better than any of them, and normally you play the best players the most.
Very true. You play your best overall guys the most and give them the hardest minutes. Which is why the Tyutin-Nikitin pairing will probably ultimately lead us in ice time again, despite their terminal lack of glory.

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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
This is a 50-point, 20+ minute a night guy that plays in all situations for a top team, can make break-out passes and lay massive hits, with size and reach.
20 minutes a night? Every single one of our top-4 guys averaged 25+ minutes a night last year or more.

Scoring? Edler - unlike Wisniewski - has never actually cracked 50 points. His career average is just under half a point per game, although recent upward trends suggest that something over half a point per game would be a better expectation. JMFJ's gotten reasonably close to that, and so has Nikitin.

Playing in all situations? That fits Tyutin and Nikitin quite well. JMFJ's also done that for us and done much better than anyone would have guessed, but it was largely out of necessity. Wisniewski... probably not a good idea.

Breakout passes? Nikitin is a ****ing wizard at 'em. Tyutin might be best described as "above average". JMFJ can do a very good job with them, but I mostly noticed him just carrying the puck up himself. Likewise with Wisniewski.

Hitting hard? That's where Wisniewski shines. JMFJ's also capable. Tyutin can hipcheck shockingly well but doesn't do so enough. Nikitin is... okay.

Size and reach? Tyutin and Nikitin are the same size as Edler. Wisniewski's "relatively undersized" at 6' 208lb or so and is shockingly strong for his size. JMFJ's somewhere in the middle there.

So... which defensemen were you describing again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
You give him to Todd Richards and he'd be among your top dmen, beleive me.
I don't doubt it. But we already have a lot of those guys. Determining the actual order would require them all being on the team simultaneously, and it'd be a bit of a close race, with various statistical categories favoring different players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
If Edler went to Columbus tomorrow and the season started and Edler wasn't on the top pair, Richards doesn't deserve a job.
Well, he'd certainly be among the most noticed; does that count?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
And if the rest of your posts in this thread randomly meander without touching on any of the actual points as your reply to mine did, I'll skip it thanks.
Generally, when the flaw in one's argument is based on poor assumptions and poor conclusions, attempting to debate as though those conclusions are immutable accomplishes nothing. If I'm attempting to debate with someone suggesting that Shea Weber sucks because there are wingers better than him, the most reasonable counterargument is "he's not a winger, and so the comparison is invalid"; attempting to counter based on, say, his scoring just completely misses the point.

So if it looks like I'm "meandering", it's because I think you're doing it wrong.


Last edited by Viqsi: 09-27-2012 at 06:21 PM. Reason: typoed Wiz's weight
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Old
09-27-2012, 06:18 PM
  #189
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No chance CBJ do that, they're going to keep Murray until they know what they have in him.
This, pretty much. We don't know if the top-4 guys are going to stay at the level they are - and besides, by the time Murray's fully ready for top duties, one of them may be ready to leave or may have started to do poorly. (We don't know, for example, whether or not Nikitin will keep kicking butt from year to year, or if Wisniewski's injury problems are behind him.)

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Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
You must be one of the very few that actually believe Columbus couldn't fit Edler in their top 4.
For the record, I don't think he couldn't be fit there, just that there's enough chance that he could end up crowded out. And if he's not crowded out, JMFJ would be. Either way, it's silly.

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09-27-2012, 06:22 PM
  #190
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I'm sure CBJ's coach would leave Edler on the 3rd pairing and play him 15 minutes...

Regardless of the chemistry when you bring a player that's much better than all others you build your D around that player.

*I really hope this doesn't turn into a Tyutin is better than Edler defensively and JMFJ is better than him offensively...even blind homers should be able to see Edler is the best d-man.

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09-27-2012, 06:30 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post

For the record, I don't think he couldn't be fit there, just that there's enough chance that he could end up crowded out. And if he's not crowded out, JMFJ would be. Either way, it's silly.
If you had Alex Edler he would be the last defenseman to be 'crowded' out. I think this is undisputable, but you seem to be relentless. Continue on...

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09-27-2012, 06:31 PM
  #192
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I'm sure CBJ's coach would leave Edler on the 3rd pairing and play him 15 minutes...

Regardless of the chemistry when you bring a player that's much better than all others you build your D around that player.
That's exactly the point, though. He isn't "much better" than what we have. He's in the same category or maybe a tad above. "Much better" would be a Norris candidate.

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09-27-2012, 06:40 PM
  #193
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Can we talk about something that might be productive? Like assets Vancouver has that are expendable that Columbus might want? Basically Schneider/ Luongo, Raymond, a variety of prospects/ppicks, etc. What does Columbus have that's expendable? Presumably 1st round picks, anything else? Savard would be a nice pickup for us, as he's a RHD. Cam Atkinson's a good prospect, but he's probably worth more to Columbus than to us. Any thoughts?

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09-27-2012, 06:52 PM
  #194
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That's exactly the point, though. He isn't "much better" than what we have. He's in the same category or maybe a tad above. "Much better" would be a Norris candidate.
I don't think he's just a tad above. Edler would be your best defense-man, hands down. Anyways, I agree with VKWhale. This has been beaten to death.

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09-27-2012, 07:13 PM
  #195
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I don't think he's just a tad above. Edler would be your best defense-man, hands down. Anyways, I agree with VKWhale. This has been beaten to death.
Yeah, I think we're into "reasonable folks can disagree" territory now.

As for actual expendable assets... we've got defense prospects and two-way center prospects, and everything else is "wait for the experimental results first". Which is why I haven't done much proposing.

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09-27-2012, 11:48 PM
  #196
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Assets I would be interested in from Columbus.

1st
2nd
Ryan Johansen
Oscar Dansk
David Savard
Lukas Sedlak

Obviously, some hold more value than others. Therefore, what is added changes but those are what sticks out for me, Murray aside. This assumes we are discussing Schneider of course.

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09-28-2012, 12:03 AM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Assets I would be interested in from Columbus.

1st
2nd
Ryan Johansen
Oscar Dansk
David Savard
Lukas Sedlak

Obviously, some hold more value than others. Therefore, what is added changes but those are what sticks out for me, Murray aside. This assumes we are discussing Schneider of course.
Or Luongo.

Also, don't forget they have three 1sts. Cam Atkinson may also be of interest, too.

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09-28-2012, 08:38 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
This, pretty much. We don't know if the top-4 guys are going to stay at the level they are - and besides, by the time Murray's fully ready for top duties, one of them may be ready to leave or may have started to do poorly. (We don't know, for example, whether or not Nikitin will keep kicking butt from year to year, or if Wisniewski's injury problems are behind him.)



For the record, I don't think he couldn't be fit there, just that there's enough chance that he could end up crowded out. And if he's not crowded out, JMFJ would be. Either way, it's silly.
Aside from that, Murray has an upside that is unmatched by any defender currently playing in Columbus. Will he get there? Meh, who knows, ask me again in 5 years. But CBJ would be stupid to move him until they knew for certain, he could very well be the cornerstone of their franchise for years. CBJ have had some bad luck with drafting and overall they've made some moves they likely shouldn't have. It's time to get on track, and trading Murray is not the way to do that.

This whole Edler to CBJ is getting silly. I fully believe that he would be their ice time leader, but at the stage CBJ is at he doesn't really fill a glarring need. They'd be better off looking for young forwards with 1st line potential, and a goalie that can actually stop the puck. Of course, it's difficult to acquire those things without giving up considerable assets.

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09-28-2012, 08:41 AM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Who gives a **** what people around here think someone is worth and how they place players in proposals! Are you serious? You think this matters one iota in the real world?

News flash for posters around here: You don't know jack **** about the value of players in real life and it's not your fault. How often are the majority of posters around here dead wrong? The vast majority of the time.

Dougie Hamilton's value is not tarnished in any way by not having played in the NHL yet and that's because NHL teams have "scouts" and "experience" and "forsight" and they know Hamilton is as good as D prospects get.

I gaurantee you if Boston is asking someone about a top pairing defenceman, they're asking for Hamilton in return.

And people ask for a starter's return for Schneider (again, who gives a ****) because the Canucks organization, Mike Gillis, most hockey media types, Alain Vigneault and most Canucks fans and scouts consider him a number one. Is it more logical to beleive them? Of fans on a message board that don't know anything and pump out absurd 'proposals' all day?
Posters making statements like "people on here don't know anything" and "who cares what posters think" who then offering their own opinions is the best.

And with that out of the way, there is no way Alex Edler would play third pair in Columbus.

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09-28-2012, 10:24 AM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Assets I would be interested in from Columbus.

1st
2nd
Ryan Johansen
Oscar Dansk
David Savard
Lukas Sedlak

Obviously, some hold more value than others. Therefore, what is added changes but those are what sticks out for me, Murray aside. This assumes we are discussing Schneider of course.
Savard is as hard to trade for me as Erixon, and a lot more than Moore. He's the only one of our top defense prospects with a right shot, even though we already have a lot of what his skill set consists of on the current blue line.

Also the plan has been to let Bob take the reigns and to give Mason one last chance, but I would love Luongo or Schnieder. There's no way Murray is going to be let go though, even though Schnieder+ for Yakupov could have been done if he had slid past Edmonton.

Mason + Moore + 2nd

Luongo + Raymond


Mason + Savard + LA or NYR 1st + Sedlak/2nd

Schnieder + Raymond


Raymond-MacKenzie-Dorsett would be a killer fourth line!

Mason's contract only runs for one more year and he could probably develop into at least a capable backup if he gets out of here.

You can also take one of Boll or Gillies if you need someone to take Raymond's spot. I just want them out of OUR lineup, which happens if we get Raymond, who could hopefully turn it around for us.

Finally, Edler wouldn't break Niki-Tyuts up just like he cant break up Hammer-Bieksa, this should not be a hard thing to understand. He WOULD still get at least 22+ minutes a night though, regardless of whether he plays "above" Wisniewski or Johnson, I'd love for him to take Wiz's ES and PK time.

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