HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Los Angeles Kings
Notices

At least one team still respects Dan Cloutier's goalie skills and leadership

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-27-2012, 02:58 PM
  #26
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Hey Jay,

I agree with you on Labs, I never really cared for him either, but I also don't hold him accountable really either. I mean the guy is really a backup goalie that we tried as a starter and it failed. That's fine, not everyone is cut out to face the top teams in the NHL. Frankly, it wouldn't even bother me all that much if we brought him back in strictly a backup role (assuming Bernier is dealt). I think he's the type that can hold his own against weaker opponents, but don't count on him to carry you for a stretch or come up with a huge game. That's not him.

Cloutier though, sorry, I don't share your sentiments. I agree he was hurt, and that's an unfair burden, but he also wasn't so hurt that he couldn't play. Doctors don't clear guys to play unless they can play, and it's not like Cloutier has sued us over being unfairly cleared for action or something. He may not have been 100% but he was likely 90 to 95% and he should have posted better numbers than he did.

Btw, Garon's numbers were much better than Cloutier's as a King.

Cloutier: 33 games, 8-18-3, 0 SO, 3.83 GAA, .868 Sav. %
Garon: 95 games, 44-36-9, 6 SO, 3.03 GAA, .898 Sav. %

Also, keep in mind that 24 of Cloutier's 33 games were in 2006-2007, and both Garon and Cloutier played on that team, so they both shared that horrendous defense you posted. That year, Cloutier's GAA was 3.83 and sav. % was .860, while Garon was 2.66 and .907.
Those numbers aren't that much better, and Garon had a playoff team in front of him during some of those 95 games.

And no I am not defending Checmanek. That was just a bad goalie. Sorry if you come sprawling out to the blueline to make saves or you fall down behind the net that's on you.

But a bad defense, a bad coaching system, with an injured goalie. A lot of that isn't the guys fault. That's my point. But people like to make it his fault.

29 games guys. 29 measly games.

Goalies are just the typical fall back for criticism. It happens everywhere I guess. I mean, people hated Mike Smith in Tampa, Osgood was hated in Detroit, Luongo in Vancouver.....remember when a lot of people were hating on Jonathan Quick and calling for the saving graces of Bernier?

Yea a bad team can make a goalie look REAL bad. Worse than they actually are. Some hate...is also just completely misdirected, ala Osgood or Smith and Quick to some extent early on. That's my only point.

I am not saying people can't not like Cloutier. That's fine and dandy everyone has their opinions. A lot though, I have noticed, misdirect hatred for a poorly managed team, with sub-par players directly onto the 29 games that Cloutier played. As if those games were somehow our entire season. It's not fair.

I'll say it again and again, I don't like the guy. I think he was a poor goaltender when he got here, put into a terrible situation on a bad team and it only got worse. But he was not the worst thing on the team at that time, not by a long shot.


Last edited by Jason Lewis: 09-27-2012 at 03:03 PM.
Jason Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-27-2012, 04:41 PM
  #27
tigermask48
Maniacal Laugh
 
tigermask48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: R'Lyeh, Antarctica
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 2,720
vCash: 500
Wow, way to twist facts around there Jay...

Ok, the 2005 Kings weren't as you put it a "playoff team" because well, they didn't make the playoffs. Plus you had a terrible locker room with distractions like Roenick and his skates, Avery being Avery, etc. Plus it was the first time Garon had ever played more than 20 games at the NHL level in one year, he was very much sill a young goalie trying to become a starter.

You also still fail to acknowledge the fact that Garon played head and shoulders, without a doubt better than Cloutier behind the same team. But then use the excuse of bad system and ad team to defend Cloutier...

Lastly take a look at his numbers in Manchester. He couldn't even out play those guys for a job. He put up worse numbers than all of Ersberg, Quick and Danny Taylor in a similar number of games. Cloutier wasn't fully the product of a bad team with a bad system. He stunk. He was bad, BAD, BAD at two different levels with two different teams. It may have been the injuries or whatever excuse he could come up with, but he was still bad to the point that he played himself out of an NHL career and then turnd around and tried to blame the Kings for mishandling him.

One thing that has always bugged me about those mid 2000's Kings teams is how people can say this:

Visnovsky-Norstrom
Corvo-Gleason
Dempsey-Miller
Weaver/Sopel

is some how a better defense than this:

Blake-Norstrom/Modry
Visnovsky-Miller
Sopel-Dallman/Tverdovsky
Weaver/Heward/Harrold

As if Blake isn't a clear upgrade over either Corvo or Gleason, and Sopel isn't at least a wash when compared to the other... Dempsey is maybe slightly better than most of the other options and the rest is really a wash because it's the same players.


Last edited by tigermask48: 09-27-2012 at 05:10 PM.
tigermask48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-27-2012, 08:46 PM
  #28
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
Cloutier was almost as awful as Fuhr when he was in L.A.

His reaction times where brutal and he had very little ability to follow the play. He was a confidence is everything goalie and that was the knock on him pre draft too. Pretty dead on for who he was throughout his career.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-27-2012, 09:28 PM
  #29
Butch 19
King me
 
Butch 19's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: L.A. suburb
Country: United States
Posts: 8,702
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
I same exact numbers as Cloutier AND he had a better team in front of him. However, Garon slowly slips by the hate-o-tron. It's just ignorance to me. It's like blaming the refs for a loss. It's the easy thing to do, so people do it, and do it too often I might add.
Garon won the 3rd most games in a season in team history - in his first year as an NHL starter.

He stole games (with literally no D in front of him) and excelled in the shootout.

After that breakout season, what was his reward? DL said that trading for Cloutier would be an upgrade in goal (not even going to mention the contract extension that cost the Kings even another player. ****!)

"build from the net out" and all. oh well

Butch 19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-27-2012, 09:40 PM
  #30
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
 
Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 30,910
vCash: 500
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2510206
Quote:
Crawford was fired by the Canucks in April and hired by the Kings in May.

"This is solidifying the goaltending position here in Los Angeles," Crawford said. "Dan is a great competitor. He's worked extremely hard at his game.

"You need a real good technical base and you need the passion that Dan exhibits so well in his game. We're pleased to have him in the fold here in Los Angeles," he said.
Crawford and Cloutier truly do deserve one another. The poisonous pairing was destined to fail, just as they did in Vancouver, and it came crumbling down in LA. I don't know what Dean Lombardi was thinking when he not only acquired Cloutier, but he gave him a friggin' extension before he even stepped foot on an ice surface in a Kings uniform.

You guys recall Cloutier switching back and forth between his Cooper SKG helmet and a goalie mask? It's like that time Jamie Storr thought he wore a cursed mask and switched to his old one. This headcase goalies are just mentally fragile. Hey, the Kings had a penchant for bringing in goalies who were unstable.

Thank God Bill Ranford and the development team put a stop to that terrible stretch of horrid goaltending.

Ziggy Stardust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-27-2012, 09:43 PM
  #31
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
I have seen some terrible goalies during my time as a Kings fan and Rollie Melanson's 9 goal playoff debacle wasn't even close to how horrible Cloutier was for us but even way back in the early 70's on the worst for me remains Mario the goose Goselin.

I know he didn't have much left in the tank when we picked him up but my gawd he was awful.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-27-2012, 09:47 PM
  #32
Holden Caulfield
Moderator
Perennial Skeptic
 
Holden Caulfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,681
vCash: 500
Garon was the best goalie the Kings had between Potvin and Quick, hands down (in a Kings uniform). He was/is always a natural 1B guy, just cannot handle the full workload of a team, but a very good guy to have 25-35 games a year. He literally STOLE the month of December 05 (NHL player of the month) and was a HUGE reason that the Kings were in first place in January 06. He needed a halfway competent backup to help him, which he had in the first half of the year with Labarbera before Labarbera's personal problems that forced the Kings to ride Garon into the dirt. It's really sad that a 1B goalie is the best the Kings had in a 7/8 year span, but yeah he was. Could be dominant on nights. Take away Labs personal problems and the Olympic injuries of Demitra and Frolov, that Kings team make playoffs. Too bad. Garon was a solid guy, asked to do too much perhaps, but like a Derek Armstrong, that's hardly his fault.

At the other end of the spectrum, Cloutier was probably the worst. Guy was more than washed up by the time the Kings got him, and he was a pretty really terrible starting goalie in his prime. He was simply a disaster, easily DL's worst move as a GM of the Kings.

Oh and saying a .898svp (Garon) is equal to a .868svp (Cloutier) is like saying Henrik Lundqvist (.930) was equal to Ray Emery (.900) last year. Just to get a sense of how VAST that gulf is.

__________________


Holden Caulfield is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2012, 09:03 AM
  #33
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,941
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Those numbers aren't that much better, and Garon had a playoff team in front of him during some of those 95 games.

And no I am not defending Checmanek. That was just a bad goalie. Sorry if you come sprawling out to the blueline to make saves or you fall down behind the net that's on you.

But a bad defense, a bad coaching system, with an injured goalie. A lot of that isn't the guys fault. That's my point. But people like to make it his fault.

29 games guys. 29 measly games.

Goalies are just the typical fall back for criticism. It happens everywhere I guess. I mean, people hated Mike Smith in Tampa, Osgood was hated in Detroit, Luongo in Vancouver.....remember when a lot of people were hating on Jonathan Quick and calling for the saving graces of Bernier?

Yea a bad team can make a goalie look REAL bad. Worse than they actually are. Some hate...is also just completely misdirected, ala Osgood or Smith and Quick to some extent early on. That's my only point.

I am not saying people can't not like Cloutier. That's fine and dandy everyone has their opinions. A lot though, I have noticed, misdirect hatred for a poorly managed team, with sub-par players directly onto the 29 games that Cloutier played. As if those games were somehow our entire season. It's not fair.

I'll say it again and again, I don't like the guy. I think he was a poor goaltender when he got here, put into a terrible situation on a bad team and it only got worse. But he was not the worst thing on the team at that time, not by a long shot.
Jay, normally I'm a big fan of your posts, but if you don't think there's a big difference between a .868 sav. % and a .898 sav% and a 3.03 GAA compared to a 3.83 GAA, you are really smoking some wickedly awesome stuff that'd I'd pay some good money for.

A 3.03 GAA and .898 Sav % is barely good enough to be a backup in the NHL, even then, nevermind minor league caliber numbers Cloutier posted.

And that's just the numbers over their times in LA. As a pointed out for the 2006-2007 season when they actually played together behind the exact same defense, the gap in numbers between Garon and Cloutier was even worse (2.66 GAA and .907 sav % versus 3.98 GAA and .860 sav %).

As a point of reference, that's a .047 different in save percentage between Garon (.907) and Cloutier (.860) in 2006-2007. A difference of .050 would mean the equivalent of allowing one extra goal every 20 shots. Since all teams allow more than 20 shots on average per game, basically the difference in Cloutier and Garon's save percentage's that year was an entire one extra goal, per game. At the NHL level, that is huge. Astronomically huge. Drop Quick's save percentage .047 and see what happens. We wouldn't have even made the playoffs.

kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2012, 10:07 AM
  #34
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,016
vCash: 500
This is all fine people can respectfully disagree I don't have a problem with that.

I have a soft spot on goalie hate. 15+ years of a goalie in soccer up through college will do that to you.

Jason Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2012, 12:33 PM
  #35
Butch 19
King me
 
Butch 19's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: L.A. suburb
Country: United States
Posts: 8,702
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
This is all fine people can respectfully disagree I don't have a problem with that.

I have a soft spot on goalie hate. 15+ years of a goalie in soccer up through college will do that to you.
Hey, I appreciate the non-lockout talk.

Can you maybe start a thread how Jamie Storr just flat out ruled?

Butch 19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2012, 01:51 PM
  #36
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Hey, I appreciate the non-lockout talk.

Can you maybe start a thread how Jamie Storr just flat out ruled?
Nope, but I was working on one about J.S. Aubin...

Ya know he was in a commercial with our jersey on after all....

Jason Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2012, 01:41 AM
  #37
RonSwanson*
Gadfly
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Food 'N Stuff
Country: United States
Posts: 8,769
vCash: 500
Horrible goaltending aside, Cloutier's actions after he was out of a job are what make him "public enemy #1".

To compare him to Garon is nothing short of a joke.

RonSwanson* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:40 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.