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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part III (First 2 weeks of season cancelled)

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Old
09-27-2012, 03:58 PM
  #101
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A deal's getting done this weekend. I have a good feeling.
You lie. There is no such thing as a deal getting done so long as bettman rules.

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09-27-2012, 05:25 PM
  #102
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Not sure what to make of this...

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Bruce Garrioch ‏@SunGarrioch
An NHL insider summing tomorrow's talks: "Window dressing." #NHL #NHLPA

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09-27-2012, 05:41 PM
  #103
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what the hell does that mean?

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09-27-2012, 05:51 PM
  #104
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what the hell does that mean?
It means theyre getting in a room for the sole purpose of avoiding more public backlash, and neither side has any serious aspirations of getting a deal done.

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09-27-2012, 06:27 PM
  #105
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The Canadian dollar accounts a certain % increase. The top teams are responsible for the revenue increasing from $2.1B to $3.3B. The CBC deal will be up in 2 years. A second team in Ontario will account for a big revenue increase. The PA feels the NHL will have a big boom in revenue.
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The current Canadian TV contract runs out after two more seasons, and the NHL is expected to make a killing on the new one. And what if the league adds more Canadian teams? There are new arenas in the works in Quebec City and suburban Toronto.
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"Hockey is poised, I think, to really move over the next two or three or four years to a fundamentally different place than it has been before," said NHLPA executive director Don Fehr earlier this month.

"The question is whether the disagreement we're now having is going to screw that up. If so, that's bad and it's unfortunate. We ought to be doing what we can to avoid it."
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--fo...ears-away.html

A prolonged lockout won't do much to promote the growth of the game.

MLB was a $3.5B business in 1994/1995. Today its a $7B business. The NHL adds a 2nd team in the Toronto. Great Toronto Area. They will print money. A new building in Markham,Ontario is in the works.

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09-27-2012, 06:54 PM
  #106
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http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--fo...ears-away.html

A prolonged lockout won't do much to promote the growth of the game.

MLB was a $3.5B business in 1994/1995. Today its a $7B business. The NHL adds a 2nd team in the Toronto. Great Toronto Area. They will print money. A new building in Markham,Ontario is in the works.
The NHL can't afford another substantial lockout if that's the case. I know it's canada and they love their hockey but you are still going to lose fans. How are you going to develop fans for these new canadian teams? Especially in Ontario where most citizens are probably maple leafs fans. I think you've got to hope that you can pick up the youth as those new fans, but how are you going to do that when there's no hockey to watch now? You can't have a lockout every 7-8 years, it's pathetic.

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Old
09-27-2012, 07:36 PM
  #107
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Numerous sources have confirmed to the Tribune-Review that negotiations this weekend in New York could possibly last three days.

This has to be viewed as positive news.

The first topics in Friday's meetings will pertain to possible realignment, player safety issues and player discipline issues.

Craig Adams, the Penguins' player rep, told me that if things go well regarding those topics, it could give the entire process momentum and that, perhaps, some serious progress could be made.

Great news. Not significant news yet, but maybe the door is now open.
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Finally some good NHL news
https://twitter.com/JoshYohe_Trib/st...72661346123778

Adam Proteau and his CBA solution

Proteau proposed a luxury tax which will be distributed to smaller market teams in revenue sharing. The PA didn't propose a luxury tax system. Bettman wouldn't go for it because it goes against his hard cap system.

Everything else is logical.

The NHL drops their demand for immediate salary cuts through escrow and puts a cap on escrow as Larry Brooks has written,there would be a deal done sooner than later.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...o-the-CBA.html

Quote:
Stalemated on the central issue of how revenue should be divided, the owners and players have agreed to negotiate on some of the secondary issues, such as travel, pension, supplemental discipline, etc. The idea is that agreeing on some of these issues might spark dialogue on core economic divide.

"The revenue split is the key issue, but they are tied into a whole lot of other issues, such as the arbitration process, qualification for free agency and others," said agent Tom Laidlaw. "Maybe they won't get to the point where they agree even on these issues, but at least they will know the point where the other side is getting comfortable. This is a complicated deal and the more little things they can agree on, the easier it gets."
Quote:
Most players believe they could be ready to play with seven to nine days of training camp. Under that theory, a deal would need to be reached by Tuesday or Wednesday to keep the NHL's opening day of Oct. 11.

The unspoken idea behind the agreement to start negotiating the issues on the edges is that at some point one side, or another, might say it would move on a number of secondary issues if the other side moves on the central economic impact.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nhl/s...ble/57849030/1

If the NHL agrees to expand revenue sharing to $220M,the PA agrees to give on contracts. Term/structure. The players proposed $240M in revenue with Bettman controlling an industry growth fund. The owners offered a $40M increase to $190M from $150M. Both sides proposed dumping the restrictions on TV households. The players keep arbitration. The players proposed dumping walk away rights. Give it to them. The players proposed the floor being a % of the upper limit. The NHL appears to like that idea. James Mirtle reported Bettman wants his 50/50 split and anything else he gets is gravy. Daly said the cheating contracts are 1A right next to the HRR split. The players get their way on the other systems issues and they give the NHL a deal on HRR and contracts structure/term

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09-27-2012, 11:12 PM
  #108
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this weekend is HUGE for whether or not we're seeing hockey this year. i think if the reports of this weekend don't indicate major progress, we're losing the season. if there's progress, there's hope.

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09-27-2012, 11:23 PM
  #109
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this weekend is HUGE for whether or not we're seeing hockey this year. i think if the reports of this weekend don't indicate major progress, we're losing the season. if there's progress, there's hope.
It's huge if you want little to no games missed. This isn't crucial to the season being missed especially since it doesn't look like the core economics will be discussed. No matter what happens after this, there will be meetings again especially since the most important issue may not be brought up.

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09-27-2012, 11:34 PM
  #110
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Do it.

Just get it done, please. I like what I'm hearing.

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09-28-2012, 12:22 AM
  #111
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Early reports should be very positive. Both sides should meet into Sat and Sunday as the optimism grows. All blogs will report the spin they will be given. You can flip a coin as to their accuracy.

The moment of truth comes late Sunday. Both sides have to show their base that they were the good guys and did everything possible to get a deal done so they should hold hearings late into the weekend.

The real question is whether each side has a line in the sand that they won't cross. If so, inflexibility trumps all.

One would believe that both sides recognize that the economy is fragile and the sport came off a successful run with the playoff ratings. Can the sport really afford another strike?

In a strange way, I would have predicted a short lockout if the PA didn't have a high profile leader. Now... I'm less confident. If the revenue split is a deal breaker for the owners then I suspect the lockout goes awhile. However, I'm not really that familiar with all the issues. Do the owners have much to give the players to make an adjusted revenue deal work?

Revenue sharing between the teams? Probably goes over as well as salary sharing between the players?

I really don't know enough to comment further.

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09-28-2012, 04:50 AM
  #112
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“I think the owners were willing to lose up to two seasons in the last lockout, but this time around, no,” said Jonathon Gatehouse, a Canadian business writer and the author of “The Instigator,” a new biography of Bettman.

“I buy into the same idea that a lot of people have: There’s too much money on the table to leave behind,” Gatehouse added. “Just in May, Bettman was at a sports business conference in Boston, talking about how the league has never been in a better place financially.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/28/sp...&emc=rss&_r=1&

Quote:
“I don’t anticipate a deal getting done this weekend, but the fact the lines of communication are still open (is good),” Montador said. “It’s not, ‘If it’s not core economic issues, there’s nothing to talk about.’ It’s not that stance. The reality is, the deal isn’t just the core economics. Even if the core itself was done this weekend, time still has to be put into other issues.”
Quote:
No, it’s doubtful you’ll see NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr coming out of this weekend’s meetings to announce a new deal. But perhaps they’ll come out agreeing on one item. Maybe two.
http://www.csnchicago.com/hockey-chi...5&feedID=10334

Steve Montador is the Hawks NHLPA rep.

The NHL is a $3.3B business. The projected revenue for 12-13 was $3.51B which included the NHL pre-season. $3.76B in 13-14. $4.02B in 14-15 which is the first season of the new TV deal in Canada. CBC's deal is up after 13-14. $4.3B in 15-16.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4528942/

The NHL NBC deal is backloaded. Brooks wrote it pays the NHL $150M-$160M this season. The NHL gets that money if a season is lost but the 10 year deal extends to an 11th year with no rights fee. The 10th year could pay the NHL $240M per and they get zero if there is an 11th year. 10 years. $2B.


Last edited by RangerBoy: 09-28-2012 at 07:33 AM.
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Old
09-28-2012, 05:29 AM
  #113
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I am optimistic that a deal can/will get done within a month and salvage most of the season. The very fact that they are talking is a positive sign. Even if they are just talking about the side issues, it is still movement in the right direction and can provide a foundation of trust for both sides to build on.

It's disappointing to see the whole preseason cancelled but it is a necessary evil. Not until both sides start feeling a hit economically will they be motivated to reach a deal.

There are a lot of negative nacys out there who are already predicting the demise of hockey, calm the hell down people! We haven't even cancelled a single regular season game yet and if they make a deal this week they wont even have too. While I think that's unlikely, we are still far away from the 'doom and gloom' many are predicting.

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09-28-2012, 07:35 AM
  #114
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We need some progress today.

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Old
09-28-2012, 08:49 AM
  #115
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Pat Leonard ‏@NYDNRangers

Today's #NHL #CBA meetings in #NYC scheduled from 10am-around noon, break due to a personal matter, then continue midafternoon on

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Old
09-28-2012, 08:59 AM
  #116
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"@michaelgrange: #CBA Meeting expected to start about 10 and will break at noon and begin again about 4 #NHL #NHLPA"

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09-28-2012, 09:08 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
"@michaelgrange: #CBA Meeting expected to start about 10 and will break at noon and begin again about 4 #NHL #NHLPA"
I want to start at ten, work for two hours, and then take a four-hour break at my job, too.

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09-28-2012, 09:10 AM
  #118
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I want to start at ten, work for two hours, and then take a four-hour break at my job, too.
Make sure you don't get paid, either, if you want to really realistic.

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09-28-2012, 09:27 AM
  #119
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What is the difference? Not like any of this would be written down.
The following.

English isn't my first language, but with the use of the term unwritten rule you gotta be able to include what maybe is best described as like an untold rule. Right? Take this statement: It used to be a unwritten rule in the game of hockey that you should not break infront of the goalie so that he gets sprayed with snow (now its included in the rules in someway I think). How many of the players had actually spoken with each other about that? Its not a formal verbal agreement the players have.

Collussion would be if the GM got together on the phone and struck an agreement not to approch each other's RFA's. I am not familiar with the common law legal system/US law, but the general rule with collusion is definitely that it takes some kind of agreement or organized behavior. Hence i) If the players get on a phone conference and agrees to not sprey snow on goalies, or Fehr sends out a memo not to sprey snow on goalies, or the word is activly spread somehow -- it would fulfill one of the conditions for collusion. ii) If you just don't do something because its not classy, you are afraid that it will come back and hurt you and what not, and after a while everyone recognize that everyone is doing what they are doing -- and it becomes a pattern and soon someone even calls it a unwritten rule -- one of the conditions for collussion is probably not met.

In anti-trust law you work alot with terms that cover stuff that just is implied and so forth. Like if one gas company hits the media and states that their gas price shall be 0.25 for a year, and all of a sudden the other four major companies -- 100% independant of each other -- puts their gas price at 0.25 and everyone stays there for a while, it might be seen as something in violation of anti-trust law. The collussion institute is often influenced by the anti-trust laws, and I wouldn't be suprised if there were some kind of openings to claim collussion even if the GM's didn't have a hand-shake agreement if you get what I mean.

But I personally just don't think that it smells that much in relation to what collussion really is. To be honest, it doesn't smell at all, because nobody does this to make money in any way (while Id definitely admit that strictly interpreted -- its atleast not that far of).

If it "smelled" more, I think the odds of the PA getting something done here would have been much higher. If you could like speculate that the owners would have spent 100m USD more per year if RFA was chased harder, then sure. At least try it. But now, I just doubt anyone want to touch it. At the same time, for the individual RFA it smells alot. So who knows...


Last edited by Ola: 09-28-2012 at 09:37 AM.
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Old
09-28-2012, 09:56 AM
  #120
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I want to start at ten, work for two hours, and then take a four-hour break at my job, too.
Supposedly the NHL side has a funeral to attend today which is why there's a break.

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09-28-2012, 10:06 AM
  #121
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Not sure what to make of this...
One, Garrioch is terrible and full of ****

Two, since we already know that they aren't going to be talking about money issues, we could assume it just means that they're working on the "window dressing" issues that aren't as important, blah blah

The NHL doesn't give a **** about public opinion and wouldn't waste their time with scheduling 3 days of talks if they didn't mean to actually work on some stuff, but the most important stuff still might not be addressed

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09-28-2012, 10:12 AM
  #122
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I want to start at ten, work for two hours, and then take a four-hour break at my job, too.
How about if you have a funeral to attend in between?

Complaining without all the facts is fun.

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09-28-2012, 10:30 AM
  #123
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How about if you have a funeral to attend in between?

Complaining without all the facts is fun.
I enjoy it, personally.

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Old
09-28-2012, 10:47 AM
  #124
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Supposedly the NHL side has a funeral to attend today which is why there's a break.
for what, the 2012-2013 season?

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09-28-2012, 11:49 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
One, Garrioch is terrible and full of ****

Two, since we already know that they aren't going to be talking about money issues, we could assume it just means that they're working on the "window dressing" issues that aren't as important, blah blah

The NHL doesn't give a **** about public opinion and wouldn't waste their time with scheduling 3 days of talks if they didn't mean to actually work on some stuff, but the most important stuff still might not be addressed
I agree. And its ass-backwards logic this late in the proceedings, where the pre-season has been cancelled and they are perilously close to cancelling regular season games.

Disciplinary issues? Travel??? This is the easy stuff - the stuff they could negotiate at a later time and get the season underway if they were to handle the financial issues first.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse in these negotiations.

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