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09-26-2012, 08:21 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post

Your argument, which somewhat vindicates Katz, has been used to vilify balsillie in this thread several times. sooooo it kinda fails to impress me in anyway. it kinda enforces my opinion that the Owners aren't really playing this lockout on the up and up, but instead are manipulating things to get their way.
Well of course they are trying to "get their way". What the heck have I been missing so far? Pure and simple, they want to pay less...not that hard to understand.

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09-26-2012, 08:22 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
Well you have a blogger who says a bunch about where he worked, tho provides no sources, no names, just his academic CV. Heck I have one of those. maybe not as good as his but I have friends who have as good or better so i'm not impressed by that. presenting that source as a be all end all is questionable. I don't know who he is or what his affiliations are, or what his agenda is. All I see there is a random blogger whose opinion and "facts" are not particularly verifiable. So untill then i go with the slew of journalists i have read and seen on tv who have alll said in one way or another that a rollback is a sticking point. It is however possible you are right Come back with a better source I might chage my mind.



I admit Journalists don';t get everything right but I have yet to see a single owner come out in the press and say the players are lying to the public about that point. i have seen bettman make allkinds of sttments and allegations, i have never seen him say that the NHLPA is lying to the public.
I don't really care what you think about the source. I don't trust it myself completely. Do the math on your own with the deals, rather than let the talking heads talk at you. It breaks down right. That's what I did.

It has always limited future growth, there future growths are "rolled back" and that's really where the difference is. The PA is worried about the millions they will lose over the course of the deal, they will say things like we are "rolled back" by so many percent, when most of that is coming out of future projections using their super optimistic numbers.

Why does Bettman cares? It's pretty self explanatory that both sides have fudged their numbers, my point is treating this "rollback" (which it is not) as fact is simply incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
You still havent addressed the fact that the Owners were out handing out HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF CONTRACTS right before the lockout Knowing they were gonna change the deal(negotiating in bad faith). again not best practices might even be illegal.
Thing is, it takes two to sign contracts. The players went signed those contracts knowing full well the CBA was expiring and the owner's wanted to lower the %. Yet they still signed them. There is no bad faith negotiating. They wanted to lock up players before the uncertainty of the new CBA, the players clearly wanted the same. The owner's did not deceive the players, everybody had all the available information.

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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
Again. Good business is to sewer your brand by insulting and rippingoff your best customers? Or holding a gun to the taxpayers of a small near bankrupt city's heads? Or renegging on an already agreed upon deal? Or shutting the doors following the best ever tv ratings the league has ever seen, when your holy grail of League wishes is a National TV contract? Not my idea of a well run company.
How is the NHL insulting and ripping off it's best customers? The charge what people will pay.

Are you talking about PHO? I'll get into that in a second.

In case you missed it, the NHL got it's TV deal with NBC Sports. It's worth 2 billion dollars. And locked in for 10 years.

Shutting it's doors is a two way street. This lockout is as much on the players as the league. Again, in negotiations you need two parties to agree and sign, placing the blame on one side or the other just doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
Yes inform me of how the Pheonix deal is such a great idea for the Owners? It drags down league revenues, it costs the owners each millions in revenue sharing and annual operating expenses. Wait... I know... the fabled TV contract. The often described, wholeheartedly wished for, bragged about, hungered for, dragged about, laughed about, but never once seen NATIONAL TV CONTRACT(sparkly lights and angel song). Except any headway made on that contract could well be crushed by this lockout..
I guess it does help the owners establish a case for thier inability to profit on hockey but again that is hardly the players fault. I guess you also convieniently forget that the BOG has twice in the last 3 years come as close as 15 mins to moving the team....so the value of the team as a rocksolid, can't be lost franchise is questionable.
The National TV deal is SIGNED SEALED AND DELIVERED. It blew away all previous deals, by far and away the largest in NHL history. 2 Billion dollars. So that's done.

PHO it is all about defending that "poor broke little city". They went above and beyond to build a new home for the Coyotes. The league has had many troubles in getting new rinks, which in the end resulted in the end of the Jets, Nordiques and Whalers. They had a community willing to step up and make that commitment, they needed to defend that. Had to show how they will support communities that help them.

No teams are no immovable entities. There are going to be cases where it's unworkable and they have to move them. But as a situation like PHo shows, when you step up for them, they will step up for you. It helps in exactly situations like EDM and it did in PIT to get new rinks built, that need to be built to keep the team viable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
Your argument, which somewhat vindicates Katz, has been used to vilify balsillie in this thread several times. sooooo it kinda fails to impress me in anyway. it kinda enforces my opinion that the Owners aren't really playing this lockout on the up and up, but instead are manipulating things to get their way.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

NHL ownership has always been restricted. When you agree to own a team, you agree to their terms. One of them is you need to try to make it work where you are first, before you can move a team. Due process needs to be done. Balsille thought he could go around that. Katz has done his, and is continuing to do his. Balsille thought he could bully his way in. It could never work. Katz is up and moving the ******* team tommorrow. He is doing due process, there's a world of difference here you are missing.

And I am not sure what you mean by this last sentence. The owners are negotiating to get the best deal they can...the exact same as the PA. What's the difference?

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09-26-2012, 08:48 PM
  #528
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Again. yuou have not yet provided a decent source showing that there was never a rollback request, or indeed that there isn't one right now. You yourself admitted your source was somewhat dubious but didn't provide another.......?


well since this huge windfall of cash from the tv contract is here then why should the players be forced to limit and reduce thier cap just when revenue is about to take off?

(ps the deal is as you say "better than any other" but it isn't the the deal Bettman promised. it's a half season and playoffs deal which lead thisyear to several embarrasing incedents with Playoff games being uncerimoniously cut off before the end of the game so the network could cut to bowling or figureskating or whatever the heck it was.)

Katz hasn'tdone any due process. he has a sweatheart deal in a proifitable market. why is he allowed to decide on a whim to threaten relocation? you arguesd Balsillie was a jerk for talking about moving a franchise without the NHL's permission. Katz just did it. and if he has the NHL's permission to open negotiations that's worse. Balsillie wanted to buy a bankrupt team and move it to a proper hockey market where the vast majority of fans are underserved by the one team they have. Katz is talking about moving a profitable team to an as yet untested market. if the NHL lets that happen it sure won't endear me to the owners.


PHO is about protecting the city??????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

How by promissing them(Mayor Scruggs words not mine) that the 25 mill payments wouldn't really be needed because a sale was imminent? Twice? By telling the COG that "hockeey can work in this market"? By charging a bankrupt city 50 million in 2 years and backing a series of clowns .like IEH, and Arizona Hockey Holdings, as "legitimate owners????? By failing to allow a legitimate and reasoinable bankruptcy sale to Balsillie (which even judge baum admitted was legal) which would have seen the city recoup at least some of the investment they had in the arena instead of sewering 10s and possibly hundreds of millions more on the deal? To save a team that hasn't made a thin dime and has lost money everyyear since it moved to the valley? wow. just wow. That is crazy talk.

If the NHL wanted to protect Glendale they would offer the city the team at a greatly discounted price and let the city run it, that or move/fold the team. That would protect Glendale. your argument is a joke. the Arena doesn't have to go lights out. there has never been a single attempt to investigate what happens to Glendale and the arena if they found another tennant like an AHL team or an arena football team. Let alone proper concert/circus/whatever revenues. Thanks for playing. What's next numbers from T.L. Hocking?
wow.

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09-26-2012, 08:53 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
Well you have a blogger who says a bunch about where he worked, tho provides no sources, no names, just his academic CV. Heck I have one of those. maybe not as good as his but I have friends who have as good or better so i'm not impressed by that. presenting that source as a be all end all is questionable. I don't know who he is or what his affiliations are, or what his agenda is. All I see there is a random blogger whose opinion and "facts" are not particularly verifiable. So untill then i go with the slew of journalists i have read and seen on tv who have alll said in one way or another that a rollback is a sticking point. It is however possible you are right Come back with a better source I might chage my mind.



I admit Journalists don';t get everything right but I have yet to see a single owner come out in the press and say the players are lying to the public about that point. i have seen bettman make allkinds of sttments and allegations, i have never seen him say that the NHLPA is lying to the public.

You still havent addressed the fact that the Owners were out handing out HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF CONTRACTS right before the lockout Knowing they were gonna change the deal(negotiating in bad faith). again not best practices might even be illegal.

Again. Good business is to sewer your brand by insulting and rippingoff your best customers? Or holding a gun to the taxpayers of a small near bankrupt city's heads? Or renegging on an already agreed upon deal? Or shutting the doors following the best ever tv ratings the league has ever seen, when your holy grail of League wishes is a National TV contract? Not my idea of a well run company.

Yes inform me of how the Pheonix deal is such a great idea for the Owners? It drags down league revenues, it costs the owners each millions in revenue sharing and annual operating expenses. Wait... I know... the fabled TV contract. The often described, wholeheartedly wished for, bragged about, hungered for, dragged about, laughed about, but never once seen NATIONAL TV CONTRACT(sparkly lights and angel song). Except any headway made on that contract could well be crushed by this lockout..
I guess it does help the owners establish a case for thier inability to profit on hockey but again that is hardly the players fault. I guess you also convieniently forget that the BOG has twice in the last 3 years come as close as 15 mins to moving the team....so the value of the team as a rocksolid, can't be lost franchise is questionable.


Your argument, which somewhat vindicates Katz, has been used to vilify balsillie in this thread several times. sooooo it kinda fails to impress me in anyway. it kinda enforces my opinion that the Owners aren't really playing this lockout on the up and up, but instead are manipulating things to get their way.
I am on the run and don't have time to go through point by point but I will highlight my favorite to debate with you.

The bolded above is one of your typical slanted points. There is so much fail in it that I don't know whether you are serious are just being sarcastic? I shouldn't bother debating you because you have made up your mind already but I will give it one last shot before i search for ignore.

So the NHL has been open about the fact they will be wanting a reduction in the players share of the HRR in the next CBA and in the case of most of these contracts they were being signed after the NHL's first proposal was already on the table. The player agents are all well aware of owners intentions (ALTHOUGH NOTHING HAS BEEN SETTLED YET). Those that chose to do deals before the CBA was signed are taking a calculated risk based on EYES WIDE OPEN. now they could wait for the new CBA like Jamie Benn, PK Subban, and others have done or they could take their shot now like Hall, Eberle, Kane etc. Either way both sides (owner and players) are negotiating understanding the risks but chose to of their own free will despite the option to wait. BUT as usual you paint the owners out to be the bad guys even though the NHL has not hid their intentions??? These are all grown ups and both sides fully understand the game they are playing and maybe the agents would prefer to get 6 years times 6 million now and gamble that there would be no claw back vs waiting for a much tougher CBA where they might get a worse deal. I know it doesn't fit your agenda but you are selling the players and their agents sadly short assuming the big bad owners fully understand the eventual outcome of this deal and are fleecing the poor players. If you and I understand it I am sure the guys getting paid 10% of the players wage to represent them are up to speed.


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09-26-2012, 08:56 PM
  #530
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the difference is the owners are billionaires with ofshore accounts and tax havens and shadow investments and shell companies and armies of accountants, and no-one really knows how profiable the teams, with all revenue streams and tax breaks accounted for really are.

the players on the otherhand we all know everylast detail about. how much, where and when.

the owners promissed they fixed it last time, and the time befor that. now they say they really can't do anything and nothing they have done is working, but if you(the players) fold again well really really fix it thistime. and "NO THERE CAN NEVER EvER EVER BE ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT FIXING THE FINANCIAL INEQAULITY OF THE LEAGE WITH A STRONGER REVENU SHAREING AGREEMENT SO SHUTUP." so who's being unreasonable?

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09-26-2012, 09:02 PM
  #531
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Agreed.

both sides went into those last minute contracts eyes open. but still even with the rollbacks(real or fabricated) those contracts are silly. how can anyone be worth more than Crosby?

If the owners want lower wages for the players then they should offer less money. If i spend my credity card to the limit is it Home Depot's fault? sould I blmae them for selling such awesome tools at a profit? or should I admit that I need to control my finances a bit and act like a rational human being. TNSE has always maintained they would be a mid cap team. noone hung them out to dry for it. they weren'ty kicked out of the league. why can't the others be as responsible.
and why do I and the players keep having to pay for the poor judgment of the BOG and owners who have made horrible misscalculations about the viability of certain markets?

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09-26-2012, 09:14 PM
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
Again. yuou have not yet provided a decent source showing that there was never a rollback request, or indeed that there isn't one right now. You yourself admitted your source was somewhat dubious but didn't provide another.......?
Anybody can look at the numbers. If you bothered. I am not going to. Have fun believing like sheep everything your told.

You know what, here, 3 minute google search, so all I found was dated to the 2nd to last NHL offer, so the numbers have come up significantly from there. http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=404044 Note this part...

Quote:
The league's proposal did not include an across-the-board reduction (or "rollback") to existing contract values.
So for the new offer, it reduces player percent by 8% (which is still negotiable as the NHL has shown), then if revenues increase by the NHLPA guaranteed 7.9%...oh wow, players end up losing .1% ON THE LAST NHL OFFER. NO ****ING ROLLBACK.

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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
well since this huge windfall of cash from the tv contract is here then why should the players be forced to limit and reduce thier cap just when revenue is about to take off?

(ps the deal is as you say "better than any other" but it isn't the the deal Bettman promised. it's a half season and playoffs deal which lead thisyear to several embarrasing incedents with Playoff games being uncerimoniously cut off before the end of the game so the network could cut to bowling or figureskating or whatever the heck it was.)
The deal has been here for two years. Which is why NHL has had such staggering revenue increases the last two years. Which is why the PA is pulling fantasy numbers in their projections. Promised? The link I found Bettman promised to more than double the 75 million per season they were getting with Versus. He did that. To the tune of 200 million per season.

Your gonna blae the owners for the actions of NBC sports?

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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
Katz hasn'tdone any due process. he has a sweatheart deal in a proifitable market. why is he allowed to decide on a whim to threaten relocation? you arguesd Balsillie was a jerk for talking about moving a franchise without the NHL's permission. Katz just did it. and if he has the NHL's permission to open negotiations that's worse. Balsillie wanted to buy a bankrupt team and move it to a proper hockey market where the vast majority of fans are underserved by the one team they have. Katz is talking about moving a profitable team to an as yet untested market. if the NHL lets that happen it sure won't endear me to the owners.
He's be working on it for over 4 years, since he bought the team. He is looking at his options, and conferring with people who have completed a deal a to build a new modern rink. Don't you see this is all PART of the due process. Jesus Christ.

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PHO is about protecting the city??????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

How by promissing them(Mayor Scruggs words not mine) that the 25 mill payments wouldn't really be needed because a sale was imminent? Twice? By telling the COG that "hockeey can work in this market"? By charging a bankrupt city 50 million in 2 years and backing a series of clowns .like IEH, and Arizona Hockey Holdings, as "legitimate owners????? By failing to allow a legitimate and reasoinable bankruptcy sale to Balsillie (which even judge baum admitted was legal) which would have seen the city recoup at least some of the investment they had in the arena instead of sewering 10s and possibly hundreds of millions more on the deal? To save a team that hasn't made a thin dime and has lost money everyyear since it moved to the valley? wow. just wow. That is crazy talk.

If the NHL wanted to protect Glendale they would offer the city the team at a greatly discounted price and let the city run it, that or move/fold the team. That would protect Glendale. your argument is a joke. the Arena doesn't have to go lights out. there has never been a single attempt to investigate what happens to Glendale and the arena if they found another tennant like an AHL team or an arena football team. Let alone proper concert/circus/whatever revenues. Thanks for playing. What's next numbers from T.L. Hocking?
wow.
Believe whatever you need to. Glendale offered that money up to keep the team. NHL tried to keep the team there for the city and the reassurance of every other fanbase who puts up for a rink, a show of solidarity. NHL will not be bullied into deciding how to do their own business. It's pretty clear.

EDIT: Fine one last thing. I have been saying that both sides are at fault, and both sides need to work together since the ******* start, and that revenue sharing and dropping the percent a bit will be the ******* key to the new CBA. I've been saying more revenue sharing since last year. I really really really doubt you'll find anybody on the WPG forum that thinks otherwise, nobody has said these things you are attributing to us like "NO THERE CAN NEVER EvER EVER BE ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT FIXING THE FINANCIAL INEQAULITY OF THE LEAGE WITH A STRONGER REVENU SHAREING AGREEMENT SO SHUTUP". No one. Quit putting words in people's mouth.

But you keep keep spewing your propaganda. I'm done here.

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09-26-2012, 09:20 PM
  #533
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Agreed.

both sides went into those last minute contracts eyes open. but still even with the rollbacks(real or fabricated) those contracts are silly. how can anyone be worth more than Crosby?

If the owners want lower wages for the players then they should offer less money. If i spend my credity card to the limit is it Home Depot's fault? sould I blmae them for selling such awesome tools at a profit? or should I admit that I need to control my finances a bit and act like a rational human being. TNSE has always maintained they would be a mid cap team. noone hung them out to dry for it. they weren'ty kicked out of the league. why can't the others be as responsible.
and why do I and the players keep having to pay for the poor judgment of the BOG and owners who have made horrible misscalculations about the viability of certain markets?


I'll take a shot.......the players should pick up their end of the load and help out because even in bad markets (where bad judgement was exercised) like Phoenix they are probably lucky to have generated $65 to $70 million in HRR last year the players are jacking the market for $50,136,000 in salaries (what is that about 85%?). So I kind of think the players are benefitting wildly by the NHL being in these B markets visa vie the cap floor so its in both sides best interests to figure out a better system to preserve jobs

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09-26-2012, 09:24 PM
  #534
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I think people are making this far more complicated than it needs to be.

Yes, the owners shoot themselves in the foot by being fans first and making stupid business decisions. Yes, some of them are crooked. That is the business world... there are plenty of crooked folks making money in unsavoury ways.

Bottom line is the NHL is a losing proposition for 2/3rd's of the ownership. That to me is staggering and absolutely unsustainable, especially with the worldwide recession dragging on and on and whispers of Stanley Cup winning and traditional franchises bleeding money and in some cases kicking the tires on relocation.

No matter if the owners are to blame or not, the model as it is DOES NOT work and WILL not allow the league to remain healthy and viable.

IMHO, any deal that allows the PLAYERS to take home more HRR than the OWNERS is 100% ridiculous. The owners bear all of the risk here. I don't think that even a 50/50 split is fair because at the end of the day no matter what the players make their money. There is NO guarantee for the owners of the same result.

I would however accept a 50/50 split, and I believe that 75% of the owners and players would too. It's that final, stubborn, vocal 25% causing the **** up.

The players are lucky they have guaranteed contracts and are not responsible for losses. If you are a PARTNER, as they claim to be, they should pony up when the league loses out, no?

The NHL needs better revenue sharing and a 50/50 split of HRR. End of story. Drop the puck.

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09-26-2012, 09:38 PM
  #535
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I think people are making this far more complicated than it needs to be.

Yes, the owners shoot themselves in the foot by being fans first and making stupid business decisions. Yes, some of them are crooked. That is the business world... there are plenty of crooked folks making money in unsavoury ways.

Bottom line is the NHL is a losing proposition for 2/3rd's of the ownership. That to me is staggering and absolutely unsustainable, especially with the worldwide recession dragging on and on and whispers of Stanley Cup winning and traditional franchises bleeding money and in some cases kicking the tires on relocation.

No matter if the owners are to blame or not, the model as it is DOES NOT work and WILL not allow the league to remain healthy and viable.

IMHO, any deal that allows the PLAYERS to take home more HRR than the OWNERS is 100% ridiculous. The owners bear all of the risk here. I don't think that even a 50/50 split is fair because at the end of the day no matter what the players make their money. There is NO guarantee for the owners of the same result.

I would however accept a 50/50 split, and I believe that 75% of the owners and players would too. It's that final, stubborn, vocal 25% causing the **** up.

The players are lucky they have guaranteed contracts and are not responsible for losses. If you are a PARTNER, as they claim to be, they should pony up when the league loses out, no?

The NHL needs better revenue sharing and a 50/50 split of HRR. End of story. Drop the puck.
I endorse this post as a sane and rational view of the real world and the NHL the question is how many pay checks are the players willing to lose, how much revenue is the league willing to give up, and how many games are the fans going to miss until they do the deal you proposed? Fehr and Bettman are really bright guys they could sit down together and fix this once and for all but there is still some gamesmanship to be played.

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09-26-2012, 09:43 PM
  #536
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I endorse this post as a sane and rational view of the real world and the NHL the question is how many pay checks are the players willing to lose, how much revenue is the league willing to give up, and how many games are the fans going to miss until they do the deal you proposed? Fehr and Bettman are really bright guys they could sit down together and fix this once and for all but there is still some gamesmanship to be played.
That's the whole problem dude. It comes down to pride, ego, game playing and who blinks first. Fehr definitely doesn't want to because he was hired for this purpose. Bottom (sad) line for the NHL is that 20 owners will sacrifice the season because their balance sheets will look better in May without a season under the current system.

I'm starting to believe we will lose another year. I hope to **** they get it right this time.

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09-26-2012, 11:22 PM
  #537
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Sorry. You misunderstood me.

The "ALL CAPS SHOUTING" part about revenue sharing part was in quotes. I meant to be paraphraseing Bettman and the owners Hardline stance on revenue sharing during theese negotiatons. It was in no way meant as quote of any member of this discussion or an affront to any other poster. poor communication on my part.

I still blame the owners like 65-75% because of thier stance on fixing the revenue share.

When this argument began people were claiming to be 100% for the owners. They were saying the Players were not negotiating fairly, players were in essence destroying the season and being unreal.

I disagreed and was susequently barraged with a bunch of posts stating stats and figures to show that the owners were all Just happy honest business men trying to make some money. and they were being savaged by greedy players.

i disagree they are very rich often unscrupulos men who soak every penny they can out of a fan base. Men who often have worths in the 9 and 12 figure ranges.

Maybe I've been a fan for too many decades, but I've seen more owners in more pro sports screw more city taxbases and hurt more fans with relocation and midnight moves and backroom deals than I care to have. I can run a list of the franchises moved, the fans abandoned, the tax dollars spent in vain.... History is on my side in this.


Anyone can check any "accustation" I have made. For Pheonix info check the BOH boards. the Pheonix forums there are full of quotes and numbers. The crooked owners I named are all easily googled. My "Rollback" source is mostly TSN quotes from Players/Bob McKenzie articles etc.

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09-26-2012, 11:42 PM
  #538
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Also, just to clarify. I love the Jets. I'm a Huge Sports fan. and I even support some tax relief and even taxpayercash going to pro sports. I shouldn't because really pro sports sould be all private enterprise. I buy tickets and cloths and magazines and flags and hats....they shouldn't need my tax dollars too. but I don't mind a fair proposition.

In a perfect world I think the NHL should operate like the English premiere league with relegation so teams from everywhere have a chance to win. People here keep throwing out the NBA as a reference for the way the league might work I offer the EPL. I'mpretty sure they don't have a cap either.

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09-27-2012, 04:31 PM
  #539
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Debating this issue is a waste of time.

Here are the cliff notes: The season is going to be cancelled and the league will be devastated in many markets.

After my contract is up, I won't spend another dime on the NHL until I'm resting 6 feet below.

We had a nice AHL team, tickets were cheap the games were always played and I was entertained each time.

Now what do we have? A hole in our wallet and an empty arena.

Welcome back to the NHL, suckers...I mean Winnipeggers!

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09-27-2012, 04:42 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by Vapour Trails View Post
Debating this issue is a waste of time.

Here are the cliff notes: The season is going to be cancelled and the league will be devastated in many markets.

After my contract is up, I won't spend another dime on the NHL until I'm resting 6 feet below.

We had a nice AHL team, tickets were cheap the games were always played and I was entertained each time.

Now what do we have? A hole in our wallet and an empty arena.

Welcome back to the NHL, suckers...I mean Winnipeggers!
Yes the tickets were cheap.... but sorry... the games were garbage.

I went to about 7 moose games in the 15 years they were here.

all but 2 were freebees

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Old
09-27-2012, 04:43 PM
  #541
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#537 and 538 are cool posts Skidooboy. when I get a chance later tonight I will try to respond in kind

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Old
09-27-2012, 05:41 PM
  #542
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Screw the NHL... go prospects go!!!

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Old
09-27-2012, 05:51 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
Sorry. You misunderstood me.

The "ALL CAPS SHOUTING" part about revenue sharing part was in quotes. I meant to be paraphraseing Bettman and the owners Hardline stance on revenue sharing during theese negotiatons. It was in no way meant as quote of any member of this discussion or an affront to any other poster. poor communication on my part.

I still blame the owners like 65-75% because of thier stance on fixing the revenue share.

When this argument began people were claiming to be 100% for the owners. They were saying the Players were not negotiating fairly, players were in essence destroying the season and being unreal.

I disagreed and was susequently barraged with a bunch of posts stating stats and figures to show that the owners were all Just happy honest business men trying to make some money. and they were being savaged by greedy players.

i disagree they are very rich often unscrupulos men who soak every penny they can out of a fan base. Men who often have worths in the 9 and 12 figure ranges.

Maybe I've been a fan for too many decades, but I've seen more owners in more pro sports screw more city taxbases and hurt more fans with relocation and midnight moves and backroom deals than I care to have. I can run a list of the franchises moved, the fans abandoned, the tax dollars spent in vain.... History is on my side in this.


Anyone can check any "accustation" I have made. For Pheonix info check the BOH boards. the Pheonix forums there are full of quotes and numbers. The crooked owners I named are all easily googled. My "Rollback" source is mostly TSN quotes from Players/Bob McKenzie articles etc.
Interesting, it seems that you haven't been paying attention to these CBA negotiations because if you had been you would know that the Bettman has stated multiple times that they are open to not only increasing revenue sharing but that they have also modified the the rules so that more teams qualify for it. The PA and owners are only 50 million apart per season atm, NHL offered 190 million a year and the PA wants 240 ish. That gap can be easy compromised on, but the fact of the matter is the PA has yet to propose anything of real substance and have dragged their feet in the mud at every turn. I blame both parties for the lockout but I blame the players much more than the owners. I'm not even going to respond to your premiership idea as the system of soccer is vastly different right from the ground up and wouldn't work with the infrastructure in place in the NHL or hockey in general.

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Old
09-27-2012, 06:07 PM
  #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
Sorry. You misunderstood me.

The "ALL CAPS SHOUTING" part about revenue sharing part was in quotes. I meant to be paraphraseing Bettman and the owners Hardline stance on revenue sharing during theese negotiatons. It was in no way meant as quote of any member of this discussion or an affront to any other poster. poor communication on my part.

I still blame the owners like 65-75% because of thier stance on fixing the revenue share.

When this argument began people were claiming to be 100% for the owners. They were saying the Players were not negotiating fairly, players were in essence destroying the season and being unreal.

I disagreed and was susequently barraged with a bunch of posts stating stats and figures to show that the owners were all Just happy honest business men trying to make some money. and they were being savaged by greedy players.

i disagree they are very rich often unscrupulos men who soak every penny they can out of a fan base. Men who often have worths in the 9 and 12 figure ranges.

Maybe I've been a fan for too many decades, but I've seen more owners in more pro sports screw more city taxbases and hurt more fans with relocation and midnight moves and backroom deals than I care to have. I can run a list of the franchises moved, the fans abandoned, the tax dollars spent in vain.... History is on my side in this.


Anyone can check any "accustation" I have made. For Pheonix info check the BOH boards. the Pheonix forums there are full of quotes and numbers. The crooked owners I named are all easily googled. My "Rollback" source is mostly TSN quotes from Players/Bob McKenzie articles etc.
I claim.ed the 100 percent ow er backing and have explained why.

1. Players generate more profit as an entity then the league.

2. Most players make more then 20 of thirty franchises.

3. Signing contracts within rules currently defined should be expected. Is it hypocritical? Yes, but confusing the economics/goals of teams within the NHL with the economics/ goals of the NHL as an entity is the basis for this "cry poor" argument. They are not one in the sane

3. Offshore bank accounts' shell companies etc reads as sweeping, "all owners are d bag crooks " statements and are not only broad, but irrelevant. Most fourth liners have Harvard degrees, does this have a baring on the discussion? No it doesn't.

4. You can be an angry fan and blame the owners due to the past corruption of other ownership groups, that's your perogitive. Just be honest that that's your reasoning, but don't paint them all with the same brush.

5. My point on the "business" thing was that none of these situations, policies, shenanigans, or alleged corruptions are new. All pro sports have been operating this way for 30 + years. I suppose you can keep being upset about it until the end of time, or you can accept it as the paradigm were forced to work with.

Both parties need to negotiate. One has visibly altered their proposal's and one hasnt. I can't make that any cleared as to why its where my support lies.

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Old
09-27-2012, 07:18 PM
  #545
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I know last time around the lockout was solved by an arbitrater or a mediater....ooc, why don't they just do that and at least try and save the season instead of having these pointless negotiating sessions that don't seem to be working.

Granted the league has moved in its position...but the PA hasn't at all.

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Old
09-27-2012, 07:27 PM
  #546
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I think the financial records of the owners are very much at the heart of the discussion Grind. the intricate and confusing manner many teams opperate with thier many different LLC's and LLP's and divisions might well allow profitable teams to report losses.

That my sound like paranoia to you but it's all buiness as usual for many corporations. Look at TNSE. I bet theres a Hockey corp, and an arena corp, and a concert promotion corp... all owned by the smae people, run by the same people, yet each a different legal entity.and each of them is most likley protected and sheilded by a small army of accountants and Lawyers.i even bet assets and revenue pass back and forth between those companies, legally, when there is a financial or legal reason to do so.


so yes I think it is relavent to the discussion.


I fail to see how the players are at fault for signing contracts at the best rate they can get is "bad" if noone was willing to cut the check then they won't get that much.



You can scream at the players and say they are all overpaid jerks but it's been that way in pro sports for 30+ I suppose you can keep being upset about it until the end of time, or you can accept it as the paradigm were forced to work with.

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Old
09-27-2012, 07:46 PM
  #547
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the difference is i'm not mad at the players for beign overpaid, i'm mad at them for continuously dragging their feet in the negotiations.

meanwhile 2 of the other three pro sports leagues in north america pay there athletes 50% or less, so no, it's unfortunately not quite the same or the way business is always/usually done.

i'm sure some players set up and donate to charities to get tax deductions, should we be concerned about that?

what about players that have business on the side or sponsorship deals? if we include sponsor ship deals in HRR (which they technically would be, these guys aren't sponsored for their looks...well not entirely) then the pie slants even further to the players direction?

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what's relevant, i prefer to see the dollars that are tied to the NHLs organizations as the dollars were talking about (i'd also like to point out this is yet another piece that the owners have moved on from their original stance).

All of this is besides what my main sticking point is, and it can't really be argued:

Owners have changed there position, they have "gived"

Players have dragged there feet at every opportunity.

The rest IMO is besides the point.

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Old
09-27-2012, 08:09 PM
  #548
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I just can't get my head wrapped around why the players, and their supporters, keep referring to "the league the league".

If you had 15 popcorn chicken franchises dotted around the country, 13 of them lose cash badly and 2 of them rake it in, you don't have staff at all the losing franchises holding out for higher wages because of the two winners.

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Old
09-27-2012, 08:26 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by GrandChelems View Post
I just can't get my head wrapped around why the players, and their supporters, keep referring to "the league the league".

If you had 15 popcorn chicken franchises dotted around the country, 13 of them lose cash badly and 2 of them rake it in, you don't have staff at all the losing franchises holding out for higher wages because of the two winners.
bingo...


and now i want chicken...

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Old
09-27-2012, 10:11 PM
  #550
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if 13 of your franchises are losing money, I don't think it's your workers that are the problem. the solution to solving the league's problems isn't taking money from the players to prop up weak franchises.

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