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Valtteri Filppula our future 1st line Center?

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Old
09-28-2012, 11:20 AM
  #26
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If we did, i guess we'll be a lotto team.


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09-28-2012, 11:37 AM
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Taking the step from a 3rd liner to good 2nd liner is a pretty big step taken already. What I'd like to see is him getting consistent at current level. Maybe that he could have a couple of career years where he touches ppg production. But as a long term solution, no I don't see it. It's entirely possible that a 33 year old Filppula is better than a 37 year old Zetterberg however. Hitting the jackpot with one of our prospects(whether he's already drafted or not) or free agency seems like the more likely way.

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09-28-2012, 11:46 AM
  #28
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A club like detroit would not be very attractive if they decided to have a player like Filppula as their No.1 Center

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09-28-2012, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
So with the age of Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and the emergence of Filppula last year and the way his game has developed... What does everyone think about Filppula eventually being the 1st line center of this team potentially?

I think he has the tools, but I question his ability to bring everything consistently and his leadership. I think if we get him re-signed he will eventually be the 1st line center of this team, maybe even sooner than most expect.
I seriously think he could be better than Z when we finally get to see NHL hockey once again. I don't think he has Pavs' level of skill but he could be a solid #1 center. At this point I really like him on the wing but if we can get him two quality wingers (Jurco, Tvrdon maybe) then he could be a very good two-way center and set-up guy who can put up 70 points or thereabouts.

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09-28-2012, 01:33 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I think it's fine to question his leadership.
Flip doesn't play like a guy who puts the team on his shoulders. And that's what leaders do from time to time.
He's too meek to be a leader, IMO.
If we were talking about him as a potential captain, then this leadership concern might have some validity. He is quiet and low-key (which I think you have confused with being meek), probably to a point where he'd have a hard time running a room. But we are talking about being the first-line center. And he doesn't need the leadership ability of an NHL captain to be that. He just needs to have the skill (which I don't think he quite has) and the work ethic (which he does have).

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09-28-2012, 01:35 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
I seriously think he could be better than Z when we finally get to see NHL hockey once again.
Not a chance in hell, imo. But I am really excited about the leap Flip took last year. Ideally, in the future, Jarnkrok pans out as a top-6 center and Flip can keep doing his thing on the wing.

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09-28-2012, 01:56 PM
  #32
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Just for argument's sake and to reply to all the people saying if Filppula was our #1 center our team would be terrible.

Zetterberg played the most minutes and highest toi/g last year and played center.

In 82 games

Zetterberg- 22 goals 47 assists - 69 points
Filppula- 23 goals 43 assists- 66 points

Now... I understand this is Filppula's first season producing at a rate similar to Zetterberg, but it is also his first season getting an expanded role and minutes. It is possible that from here on out, with Zetterberg getting older and older, that Filppula could produce at a similar ppg as Zetterberg. It is also possible this year was a fluke and Filppula's numbers drop.

But if Filppula could produce 65-70 points a year why couldn't he be a #1 center? His point total last year had him between Brad Richards and Logan Couture among centers. Pretty good players. And not far behind Eric Staal.

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09-28-2012, 02:04 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Not a chance in hell, imo. But I am really excited about the leap Flip took last year. Ideally, in the future, Jarnkrok pans out as a top-6 center and Flip can keep doing his thing on the wing.
Ideally I wouldn't want to Filppula to be the #1 center, this thread was just more about a contingency plan in the event that he does indeed do so, and to try to get a gauge on what everyone feels about it. Jarnkrok is really the determining factor on how that whole scenario plays out, and if he busts everything starts to look a lot different.

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09-28-2012, 02:14 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
If we were talking about him as a potential captain, then this leadership concern might have some validity. He is quiet and low-key (which I think you have confused with being meek), probably to a point where he'd have a hard time running a room. But we are talking about being the first-line center. And he doesn't need the leadership ability of an NHL captain to be that. He just needs to have the skill (which I don't think he quite has) and the work ethic (which he does have).
I see your point. But a first line center is a leader though, whether or not he has an A or C.
Lidstrom was quiet and low key. So was Yzerman. So is Datsyuk. And Zetterbeg.
But they carried themselves differently. I don't sense much "take charge" in Flip's personality.
I think if he had more of it, he'd be a better player than he is.
And he's a good player already.

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09-28-2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Just for argument's sake and to reply to all the people saying if Filppula was our #1 center our team would be terrible.

Zetterberg played the most minutes and highest toi/g last year and played center.

In 82 games

Zetterberg- 22 goals 47 assists - 69 points
Filppula- 23 goals 43 assists- 66 points

Now... I understand this is Filppula's first season producing at a rate similar to Zetterberg, but it is also his first season getting an expanded role and minutes. It is possible that from here on out, with Zetterberg getting older and older, that Filppula could produce at a similar ppg as Zetterberg. It is also possible this year was a fluke and Filppula's numbers drop.

But if Filppula could produce 65-70 points a year why couldn't he be a #1 center? His point total last year had him between Brad Richards and Logan Couture among centers. Pretty good players. And not far behind Eric Staal.
Yeah, I am taking a small leap of faith but Filppula has continued to improved his game over time. He was once simply an excellent defensive forward and now he's also producing offense at a high level. So I stand by my claim that I think he's got a real shot at surpassing Z during the next NHL season. Sorry if that hurts some people's feelings however this is what message boards are for: making reasonable suggestions as far as one player improving and another players losing a step or two. It's not outlandish to say Fil could surpass Z next season.

Thanks for taking the time to assemble last year's stats, I am at work and don't have much time to mess around putting that data together right now.

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09-28-2012, 03:44 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Just for argument's sake and to reply to all the people saying if Filppula was our #1 center our team would be terrible.

Zetterberg played the most minutes and highest toi/g last year and played center.

In 82 games

Zetterberg- 22 goals 47 assists - 69 points
Filppula- 23 goals 43 assists- 66 points

Now... I understand this is Filppula's first season producing at a rate similar to Zetterberg, but it is also his first season getting an expanded role and minutes. It is possible that from here on out, with Zetterberg getting older and older, that Filppula could produce at a similar ppg as Zetterberg. It is also possible this year was a fluke and Filppula's numbers drop.

But if Filppula could produce 65-70 points a year why couldn't he be a #1 center? His point total last year had him between Brad Richards and Logan Couture among centers. Pretty good players. And not far behind Eric Staal.
A large factor, maybe the largest in all, involved in Flip taking that leap to 66 points last season, was that he played wing instead of center, imo. He had more freedom offensively, looked more comfortable with the puck on his stick, and was much more willing to drive the net. I don't really think he can go back to center and put up the same number of points.

And beyond that, Flip produced his points in more of a complementary role. I'm a big Flip fan, but he's a complementary player. He needs to play with a guy like Zetterberg or Datsyuk to put up those kinds of points, since they generate so much offense. Flip's just not a driver like Zetterberg and Datsyuk, and I don't think he ever will be (at least not to the degree of the latter two). He's a legit top-6 forward and he can provide a lot of value, but he's just not going to carry a top line.

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09-28-2012, 04:00 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I see your point. But a first line center is a leader though, whether or not he has an A or C.
Lidstrom was quiet and low key. So was Yzerman. So is Datsyuk. And Zetterbeg.
But they carried themselves differently. I don't sense much "take charge" in Flip's personality.
I think if he had more of it, he'd be a better player than he is.
And he's a good player already.
I agree, a first line center is a leader. I didn't mean to imply that he isn't, just that he doesn't need to be a captain-level leader. Imo, Flip meets the 'leadership requisite' of a first-line center. His work ethic is top notch and his teammates have mentioned him more than once as one of the leaders on the team. I think if he had the skill of Hank or Dats, he'd fit in perfectly fine as the Wings #1 center.

Some people disagree on this point, but I've played the game long enough that there is no question: how good a player is has a significant role in how good of a leader he is. Other players are simply more willing to follow a guy who has the ability to put a team on his back for at least a short duration, or just score that clutch goal, or make that clutch play. And while Flip is no offensive slouch, he's just not at the level of Yzerman, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, or Zetterberg in that department. He doesn't inspire quite as much confidence, from a talent perspective. That's really the only thing holding Flip back in the leadership department, imo. Heck, he's less quiet and low key than Datsyuk, and is more 'take charge' personality-wise than Dats as well. Zetterberg is different than both though. While quiet and low key in front of the camera, he is less so away from the cameras, based on the numerous accounts I've heard.

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09-28-2012, 04:05 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
I stand by my claim that I think he's got a real shot at surpassing Z during the next NHL season. Sorry if that hurts some people's feelings however this is what message boards are for: making reasonable suggestions as far as one player improving and another players losing a step or two. It's not outlandish to say Fil could surpass Z next season.
I didn't see anyone's feelings hurt, certainly mine are not, but I do think it's outlandish to say Flip will surpass Hank in value next season, whenever that may be. Even if Flip somehow out-produces Hank (which I think is unlikely, but not outlandish), I don't think he brings enough else to the table to match or surpass the overall package that Hank brings to the table (assuming Hank doesn't suffer some big injury that knocks him out for half the season).

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09-28-2012, 06:50 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I think it's fine to question his leadership.
Flip doesn't play like a guy who puts the team on his shoulders. And that's what leaders do from time to time.
He's too meek to be a leader, IMO.
Lol. You have to be big and strong to be a leader? I trust Lidstroms opinion of him substantially more than yours. And yes, he's carried this team through stretches.

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09-28-2012, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Konnan511 View Post
Lol. You have to be big and strong to be a leader? I trust Lidstroms opinion of him substantially more than yours. And yes, he's carried this team through stretches.
Yzerman was a big, strapping lad.
Lidstrom was as gritty as the day is long.
Gordie Howe, the prototypical power forward, wasn't the captain during the dynasty.

Never, ever let the facts get in the way of an opinion.

With that being said, I am not suggesting Fil should be captain, merely that he is the best candidate right now to be the #1 pivot in 3-5 years.

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09-28-2012, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
I didn't see anyone's feelings hurt, certainly mine are not, but I do think it's outlandish to say Flip will surpass Hank in value next season, whenever that may be. Even if Flip somehow out-produces Hank (which I think is unlikely, but not outlandish), I don't think he brings enough else to the table to match or surpass the overall package that Hank brings to the table (assuming Hank doesn't suffer some big injury that knocks him out for half the season).
I don't see the leadership angle with Z. He gets beaten up an awful lot.
  • Brad Stuart back when he was with Calgary.
  • Evgeny Malkin, the turning point during the SCF.
  • Shea Weber in last year's playoffs.

Z was an elite player, one of the top 10 players in the league back when he was on Pavs' wing. I just haven't seen that level of play recently. Hope I'm wrong and he can regain that high level of play, but he's nowhere near Pavs right now and there was a point where you could legitimately argue whether he was better than Datsyuk. No one who actually watches this team would say that Z is better than Dats right now.

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09-28-2012, 09:18 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by lilja4mvp View Post
LOL @ eva unit zero still posting about hudler.

some things never change.
Filppula and Hudler have had incredible chemistry and have played together as pros for seven of the last eight seasons - most of which they've spent a lot of time together. In Flip's best and second best seasons (total points), he was on a line with Hudler for almost the entire season. Those were also Hudler's two best seasons.

It's a completely reasonable argument that those two play better together than with most other forwards the Wings have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Just for argument's sake and to reply to all the people saying if Filppula was our #1 center our team would be terrible.

Zetterberg played the most minutes and highest toi/g last year and played center.

In 82 games

Zetterberg- 22 goals 47 assists - 69 points
Filppula- 23 goals 43 assists- 66 points

Now... I understand this is Filppula's first season producing at a rate similar to Zetterberg, but it is also his first season getting an expanded role and minutes. It is possible that from here on out, with Zetterberg getting older and older, that Filppula could produce at a similar ppg as Zetterberg. It is also possible this year was a fluke and Filppula's numbers drop.

But if Filppula could produce 65-70 points a year why couldn't he be a #1 center? His point total last year had him between Brad Richards and Logan Couture among centers. Pretty good players. And not far behind Eric Staal.
Filppula played wing, had a poor year defensively compared to his last few seasons, and was able to attain those marks because Z was his center and Hudler was on the other wing. Had he been centered by Helm with Abdelkader on the other wing, he's probably somewhere around 40 points. Same for if he's centering the third line himself. Zetterberg's numbers were actually reduced because he was playing in a defensive role so Hudler and Filppula could be more aggressive on offense. It ended up making the line the team's most productive, but really hurt Z's numbers. Ultimately it's a win, I just think it's stupid that people look at it and say "he sucks, under 70 points LULZ." Or people who think Filppula was comparable to Zetterberg last season. He seriously wasn't. He's got offensive skill, but he's about at the peak of it with 70 points. If he shifts back to center, he's not going higher; he's going lower. Because he'll have to play more defensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
I don't see the leadership angle with Z. He gets beaten up an awful lot.
  • Brad Stuart back when he was with Calgary.
  • Evgeny Malkin, the turning point during the SCF.
  • Shea Weber in last year's playoffs.

Z was an elite player, one of the top 10 players in the league back when he was on Pavs' wing. I just haven't seen that level of play recently. Hope I'm wrong and he can regain that high level of play, but he's nowhere near Pavs right now and there was a point where you could legitimately argue whether he was better than Datsyuk. No one who actually watches this team would say that Z is better than Dats right now.
Z *was* an elite player? You mean like 2010-11 when he finished top-ten in scoring while Datsyuk missed 26 games? When Zetterberg should have been a Selke nominee (and arguably Hart also given the massive scoring gap on the team) and instead Datsyuk was? It's like people look at the Wings, see a center dominating defensively, and say "must have been Datsyuk." even if he's not in the lineup.

I still say Z is the most underrated player in the league. He's so underrated it's ridiculous.

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09-28-2012, 09:53 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
I don't see the leadership angle with Z.
You don't have to. But it's pretty much unanimous in the organization, amongst players, coaches, and management, that he's going to be the next captain. Now that Lidstrom is gone, it's Zetterberg and then everyone else at least a tier below in the leadership department on the Detroit Red Wings.


Quote:
He gets beaten up an awful lot.
  • Brad Stuart back when he was with Calgary.
  • Evgeny Malkin, the turning point during the SCF.
  • Shea Weber in last year's playoffs.
Zetterberg takes a lot of abuse because he plays hard. He shields the puck well and willingly takes a beating in order to make a play. This plays into his leadership qualities, it does not detract from them.


Quote:
he's nowhere near Pavs right now
He's very close to Datsyuk in terms of level of play. I gotta partly agree with eva on this one, Hank is, and has always been, at least to a small degree, under-rated. He's always been the better defensive forward, but Datsyuk (a premier defensive forward in his own right), mostly because of his flashiness, has all the Selkes.

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09-28-2012, 10:24 PM
  #44
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He's very close to Datsyuk in terms of level of play. I gotta partly agree with eva on this one, Hank is, and has always been, at least to a small degree, under-rated. He's always been the better defensive forward, but Datsyuk (a premier defensive forward in his own right), mostly because of his flashiness, has all the Selkes.
He's also just a better offensive player. Datsyuk is slightly to way better than Z in almost every aspect. The defensive thing I'm not entirely convinced on. I think they're too close to tell. But in terms of production and consistency...

Let's just say there are numerous times during a season in which I will feel that Zetterberg just doesn't SEEM to be working or skating hard enough. I almost never feel like that with Datsyuk. The guy is a machine.

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09-28-2012, 10:39 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
This is one of the reasons I didn't want Hudler let go. He has great chemistry with Flip and the two could have formed a great combination and would have been the new nucleus of the offense that the Wings would be building around. Imagine three or five years down the road, Dats is retired, Franzen and Cleary also gone. Hank would be 36 and probably suffering more from his injuries. Filppula has remained relatively injury-free for longer than Z did; so at 33 he might be better than a 36 year-old Zetterberg.
A small ~50 point player (playing with Zetterberg & Filppula) getting payed $4 mil per year, while playing bad defense, shouldn't be someone to build around. If you put Sammy on a line with Hank & Fil, he will probably score ~50 points. Chemistry is great, but when it costs you $4 mil per for 50 points & bad defense, its not worth it.

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09-28-2012, 10:46 PM
  #46
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He's also just a better offensive player. Datsyuk is slightly to way better than Z in almost every aspect. The defensive thing I'm not entirely convinced on. I think they're too close to tell. But in terms of production and consistency...
Since 2002-03 (Z's rookie year, Dats' sophomore season):

Datsyuk: 662GP, 229-454-683
Zetterberg: 668GP, 252-372-624

Per 82:
Datsyuk: 28-56-84
Zetterberg: 31-46-77

Most years they have been comparable offensively, separated by only a few points. But there is one huge anomaly; 2008-09. Zetterberg centered the second line - centering a line full-time for the first time in the NHL - while Datsyuk centered the first line with 40-goal scorer Marian Hossa.

Datsyuk is flashier. He's a little bit more skilled and effective. Both are excellent two way centers, and both are among the league's best centers.

Quote:
Let's just say there are numerous times during a season in which I will feel that Zetterberg just doesn't SEEM to be working or skating hard enough. I almost never feel like that with Datsyuk. The guy is a machine.
Who worked harder on defense, Kris Draper or Nicklas Lidstrom? How could you tell?

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09-28-2012, 10:53 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
A small ~50 point player (playing with Zetterberg & Filppula) getting payed $4 mil per year, while playing bad defense, shouldn't be someone to build around. If you put Sammy on a line with Hank & Fil, he will probably score ~50 points. Chemistry is great, but when it costs you $4 mil per for 50 points & bad defense, its not worth it.
Hudler is at minimum average defensively. And with regards to defensive deficiency, Filppula's defensive game wasn't any better than Hudler's last season.

As for Samuelsson, he netted 50 playing most of the year with the Sedins. Then he went to the EC, where it's easier to score. And scored about the same there. If he gets slotted into Hudler's spot, he'll get around 20-20, and probably more PP points than Huds had because he's used to playing the point and because he's a shooter rather than a passer. Had Hudler regularly ripped shots towards the net, he might have seen more points. Also more SHGA, but them's the breaks.

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09-29-2012, 01:25 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
A large factor, maybe the largest in all, involved in Flip taking that leap to 66 points last season, was that he played wing instead of center, imo. He had more freedom offensively, looked more comfortable with the puck on his stick, and was much more willing to drive the net. I don't really think he can go back to center and put up the same number of points.

And beyond that, Flip produced his points in more of a complementary role. I'm a big Flip fan, but he's a complementary player. He needs to play with a guy like Zetterberg or Datsyuk to put up those kinds of points, since they generate so much offense. Flip's just not a driver like Zetterberg and Datsyuk, and I don't think he ever will be (at least not to the degree of the latter two). He's a legit top-6 forward and he can provide a lot of value, but he's just not going to carry a top line.
For much of the season last year, I honestly felt that Filppula was the driving force of that lines success. On the wing he was given a different opportunity for sure, but to his credit he took advantage of it. Outside of Datsyuk, Filppila was easily Detroit's best puck carrier last season. His skating and patience with the puck was really key to the 2nd line until Z found his legs later in the season.

Z did take it to another gear once the team most needed him (Datsyuk's injury and inability to get back to full strength/speed.) and that was just yet another example of his drive and leadership. But I think Fil stil has a chance to develop that side to him as his role continues to grow and more is expected from him.

The next season (this yr or whenever it may come) will really be a telling sign of whether last year was just the first step for Filppula becoming a bonafide top 6 forward or not.

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09-29-2012, 08:54 AM
  #49
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I think he gets there by attrition alone.

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09-29-2012, 02:27 PM
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If Flip continues to play at C like he has played at Jokerit for this season, he shoudn't be even centering our second line.

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