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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part III (First 2 weeks of season cancelled)

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Old
09-29-2012, 10:56 AM
  #201
Jabroni
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I really hope they sign a long term deal (10 years?)

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09-29-2012, 10:58 AM
  #202
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Another secret meeting.

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Renaud P Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
Don and Steve Fehr not at this morning NHL CBA meeting. Expect Gary Bettman and Don Fehr to have another private conversation today.

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09-29-2012, 11:00 AM
  #203
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I don't know why, but I feel like the rest of this weekend is make or break. Either they get it done soon and start the season, or the whole year is lost and they don't talk for months following Sunday.

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09-29-2012, 11:05 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by NYRangers88 View Post
I don't know why, but I feel like the rest of this weekend is make or break. Either they get it done soon and start the season, or the whole year is lost and they don't talk for months following Sunday.
I do think it's make or break, but only for missing some games, not the whole season.

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09-29-2012, 11:06 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by NYRangers88 View Post
I don't know why, but I feel like the rest of this weekend is make or break. Either they get it done soon and start the season, or the whole year is lost and they don't talk for months following Sunday.
Unless they get into a shouting match or one side feels they've been completely insulted, I don't see that happening. They have agreed on certain things. The lines of communication are better than last time around. I think Bettman knows he will get pretty close to what he wants, but I also think he knows this isn't like last time where he is just going to completely steamroll the players. Last time the players were not nearly as united as they are now and they had terrible leadership imo. Bettman has to know that losing another season would really hurt the game after all the progress they've made.

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09-29-2012, 11:34 AM
  #206
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Theres a deal to be made, i think. It is just a metter of whether or not themtwo sides both want it.

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09-29-2012, 12:20 PM
  #207
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Theres a deal to be made, i think. It is just a metter of whether or not themtwo sides both want it.
I don't think they do. The mutual lack of trust is very deep.

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09-29-2012, 12:21 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by N9Y4R View Post
This lockout will not end unless the PA makes some serious concessions. There is no doubt Bettman and the owners are prepared to lose the whole season if thats what it takes to get the deal they want. They will make back the money from a lost season in the first 2-3 years of their new deal. If the PA is going to bend they better do it soon. Don't pull the same thing as '04, lose a season then crumble to the owners demands. They could have done that without costing themselves a years worth of paychecks. I don't think we will see NHL hockey this year.
i don't think it's so clear cut. Neither side wants to lose games. Too much tv money and the winter classic. A deal can be made and teams are in a better spot.

people want the pa to cave just so we don't lose games. if they yield, every new cba will be the same: crazy demand, lockout, lost games, deal. the nhl had to understand it is a compromise, not demands with no compensation. it was the nhl that billed the last lockout as necessary to stop the bleed, to end future lockouts. fans expect the players to just give up a ton of money and perks for nothing. the players have to fix the owners' mess: bad markets, bad contracts, bad system. its a hostage situaton, not a negotiation.

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09-29-2012, 12:47 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
i don't think it's so clear cut. Neither side wants to lose games. Too much tv money and the winter classic. A deal can be made and teams are in a better spot.

people want the pa to cave just so we don't lose games. if they yield, every new cba will be the same: crazy demand, lockout, lost games, deal. the nhl had to understand it is a compromise, not demands with no compensation. it was the nhl that billed the last lockout as necessary to stop the bleed, to end future lockouts. fans expect the players to just give up a ton of money and perks for nothing. the players have to fix the owners' mess: bad markets, bad contracts, bad system. its a hostage situaton, not a negotiation.
Can't speak for everyone else but I want the PA to cave to an extent because, the way I see it, that's how this is going to end. It's not about not losing games, its about putting aside what I think is "fair" and "right" and thinking about what realistically is going to need to happen for any NHL hockey to be played this year.


It is a hostage situation, and in such a situation the hostages don't get what they want.

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09-29-2012, 01:15 PM
  #210
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Fehr and Bettman did meet. Strang just confirmed.

Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA NHLPA leader Don Fehr met privately again with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman; both are trying to figure out a way to make some progress

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09-29-2012, 01:21 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
Fehr and Bettman did meet. Strang just confirmed.

Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA NHLPA leader Don Fehr met privately again with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman; both are trying to figure out a way to make some progress
i have a way. lock yourselves in the room until you do.

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09-29-2012, 01:26 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
Fehr and Bettman did meet. Strang just confirmed.

Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA NHLPA leader Don Fehr met privately again with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman; both are trying to figure out a way to make some progress
Good, at least they're being constructive.

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09-29-2012, 02:10 PM
  #213
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Don Fehr said he's meeting with Gary Bettman "to discuss how do we find a way to make an agreement." He said they plan to talk tomorrow.
https://twitter.com/drosennhl/status/252096048854614016

The owners proposed changing HRR. Then on September 12,the owners changed their minds and went back to what was HRR in the 2005 CBA. The owners wanted to take out the expenses from generating revenue.

Quote:
Don Fehr said there is an agreement to maintain the definitions of HRR from the previous CBA, but there are some issues with the language.
https://twitter.com/drosennhl/status/252097798466580481

The lawyers on both sides will come up with some convoluted defintion. Fehr must not like some of the language the previous NHLPA group(Goodenow/Saskin/Penny/Pulver)agreed to in the CBA. Different lawyers from the PA this time.

Fehr re-wrote the NHLPA constitution.

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09-29-2012, 02:29 PM
  #214
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At least I have the Giants til Feb

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Old
09-29-2012, 02:33 PM
  #215
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Update.

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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
CBA update: Division of revenues and player contracts are critical issues that need discussions. No plan to discuss either today. #RyderCup

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09-29-2012, 02:36 PM
  #216
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It is really good news they're meeting and the two main guys are having talks with each other. Doesn't mean that it will for sure mean a quick resolution, but discussion between the two sides is huge and needs to keep up

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09-29-2012, 02:53 PM
  #217
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And, well, some players in the Sharks’ makeshift locker room seem to get that. Boyle was asked directly if the players would be willing to give back on some of those demands from the owners and Gary Bettman.

“I think so. I think there is definitely room to move on all those things,” Boyle said.

So long as that doesn’t involve a pay cut, though.

“The sticking point is the guys do not…the contracts that we’ve all signed, we don’t want to give back on that,” Boyle said.

“If two or three years ago into my six-year deal I said, ‘hey, I want more,’ I wouldn’t have gotten more. That’s not right. You sign your name, and put your name on the bottom line and they put their name on the bottom line. You see it through. I think that’s the sticking point.”
http://www.csnbayarea.com/hockey-san...17&feedID=2798

This says it all. The owners back off their immediate money grab and there will be a season starting in October. 20% escrow.

The owners are being disingenious here. If they signed players this summer and before September 15 thinking the players would lose 20% of that money in escrow,then they're complete and total frauds.

The owners signed those contracts.

Put a cap of 5% on escrow as Brooks proposed. The players lost 3% of their salaries to escrow in the 2005 CBA. The NBA has a cap of 10% on escrow. The NFL cap system doesn't have escrow.

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09-29-2012, 02:57 PM
  #218
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Talks have concluded for the day in NYC
https://twitter.com/sunhornby/status/252119654808580097

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09-29-2012, 03:04 PM
  #219
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Talks have concluded for the day in NYC
Bettman: "How's the wife and kids?"
Fehr: "Not bad, she's driving me crazy though"

That's probably all that was spoken today.

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09-29-2012, 03:05 PM
  #220
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So they did talk about HRR.

Quote:
Renaud P Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
Don Fehr on today's HRR meeting:"Its an important meeting. It will determine how much money is in the pot."

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09-29-2012, 03:06 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
So they did talk about HRR.
Good I'm glad something useful was discussed. Time to be optimistic???

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09-29-2012, 03:29 PM
  #222
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Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN

#CBA Steve Fehr said two sides had a "frank exchange of views" about what should be included in hockey-related revenue as currently defined

Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN

#CBA Two sides will meet again tmrw. May go over HRR again, but sounds like Sunday's discussions will center on legal issues, grievances etc


Dan Rosen ‏@drosennhl

Asked if they will meet Monday to keep momentum going Steve Fehr said "I am always hopeful."

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Old
09-29-2012, 04:42 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
They are going to have to try to "merge" their proposals. Both sides are going to have to make concessions for a deal to get done.
I agree, but the problem is that the NHL withdrew their last proposal when they locked the players out. The owners are pushing the players to solve their problems, not negotiating a solution.

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09-29-2012, 04:54 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Can't speak for everyone else but I want the PA to cave to an extent because, the way I see it, that's how this is going to end. It's not about not losing games, its about putting aside what I think is "fair" and "right" and thinking about what realistically is going to need to happen for any NHL hockey to be played this year.


It is a hostage situation, and in such a situation the hostages don't get what they want.
you are entitled to that stance, but when does the league learn. they think, because of last time, negotiating with the nhlpa means you give them a deal they have to reject then cancel games. of course, this time they are bluffing about games but are willing to test the union. if the pa caves, we'll see lockouts every time. miss games now, call out the owners when they are earning some bank, and break the cycle.

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Old
09-29-2012, 06:35 PM
  #225
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Starting to see more and more pro-player stuff on the board - and I have to say it sounds an awful lot like it comes from posters who are looking through anti-management glasses due to their emotional connections to the players and/or their own positions as union members.

These are two businesses parties negotiating a deal and should be viewed as such. No one party is entitled to anything. And everything that's said - PARTICULARLY to the press - is a negotiating tactic.

Was the owners' first proposal ridiculous? Yes.

Is Gary Bettman an unlikeable, bullying ass? Yes.

However, the current situation is this: the owners made a first proposal - it was awful. They then made a second proposal. This proposal should have been their first proposal as it was a much more realistic starting position than the one they provided, but regardless, they did finally make it. Then the players made a proposal that moved a little bit towards the owners. The owners then made a third proposal where they made a significant move towards the middle. It is the players' turn. And they need to make a meaningful move to the middle.

The old deal has no bearing on the current one. Get that out of your heads. Just because the players had 57% in the last deal doesn't mean they have a right to that split in perpetuity. It was a negotiated deal made in the context of the pro sports business environment at that time. This one is going to be made in the pro sports environment now. The current environment of labor deals in the other 3 major North American sports is the players get 49-50% of revenues.

The owners' current position is at 49, dropping to 47. The players are still at 57 with a provision that it drop to 54 (provided, of course, that the league grows revenues sufficiently - which is VERY different than a straight drop to 54). Like I said, the players will need to make a significant move off that amount to get a deal done. The owners aren't moving much further towards the players - at least not on this issue.

Also, I've pointed this out before, but every single contract signed in the NHL is signed subject to the terms of the CBA. This idea that the owners are somehow obligated to negotiate a deal that preserves every dollar of the individual players' contracts is quite simply wrong. By definition, therefore, player contracts absolutely CAN decrease in line with a negotiated revenue split. Indeed, the escrow provision of the previous CBA would have resulted in just such a decrease from each player's contractually agreed amount - while a CBA was in effect, mind you - had the league not earned sufficient revenues in any year from 2005-2012.

Like I said, these are two business parties that need to negotiate a deal. Everything's on the table. It's not about one side in black hats trying to steal things from the side in white hats to solve problems they're too stupid to solve for themselves. The current market of pro sports labor deals has far more bearing on where the deal will come out than the previous CBA does. The league made the last offer and it was a significant move on the core economic issue. It's the players' turn.

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