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Old
09-29-2012, 01:19 PM
  #1
newfy
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Big problem with the wings

Seems to me a huge problem with the wings is that they dont have that stereotypical playoff warrior type of player. They need one of those guys who will score the dirty goals, change the momentum with a big hit or fight and do whatever it takes to win.

A guy like Mike Richards for the Kings last year, the wings just lacka spark it seems, even though they have the talent to skate with any team in the league

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09-29-2012, 01:31 PM
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The big problem is the Wings is they are slowly moving into "Calgary Flames" territory with their inability to restock the shelves with high-tier talent.

They don't have top-end talent on defense, their forwards seem to be riddled with too many bottom sixers, and it looks like a lot of young guys might have more problems to get playing time with the new acquisitions.

In all honesty, I think Detroit needs to worry about those issues before they focus on adding a "playoff warrior" (does Tootoo not potentially count).

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09-29-2012, 02:13 PM
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Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Smith, Sproul, Ouellet, Frk, and Jurco do not look like bottom 6 forwards or 6/7 dman talent. If they are that means Detroit has an extreme amount of talent filling out their roster. Don't EVER compare our prospect pool to Calgary's!

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09-29-2012, 02:28 PM
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Yeas we do, Franzen!

To give him credit I guess he was a big factor in 2008.

It would be great if Franzen could play like Shane Doan, take over a series.

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09-29-2012, 03:21 PM
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Tootoo is definitely the kind of guy who can change the momentum of a playoff series with a big hit or fight. We have forwards who have scored goals at critical moments in the past as well, and guys who go hard to the net. Don't think we have a guy who can do both those things, but not many teams do. What we need is a power forward that is more physical, like a meaner Franzen, or a younger Bertuzzi, or an Abdelkader with actual skill.

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09-29-2012, 03:23 PM
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The Wings are closer to the Phoenix Coyotes or the Nashville Predators, ie a team that has a lot of decent, defensively responsible players along with solid goaltending. I agree the team does not have much in the way of proven top 3 forwards or top 2 d-men but the team does in fact have a deep prospect pool and loads of cap space to make a deal if one becomes available. Part of the reason they were willing to let Hudler walk is it was possible to replace him internally with Gustav Nyquist. Younger player, cheaper, higher skill set, better two-way player, etc. They obviously have not replaced Lidstrom as Suter was the team's target and he signed with the Wild. So they need to do something here.

Detroit isn't the sexiest team in the league like they were from the mid 90s to the early aughts but the nucleus is there to be a consistent playoff team, something Calgary hasn't been able to do lately.

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09-29-2012, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
The Wings are closer to the Phoenix Coyotes or the Nashville Predators, ie a team that has a lot of decent, defensively responsible players along with solid goaltending. I agree the team does not have much in the way of proven top 3 forwards or top 2 d-men but the team does in fact have a deep prospect pool and loads of cap space to make a deal if one becomes available. Part of the reason they were willing to let Hudler walk is it was possible to replace him internally with Gustav Nyquist. Younger player, cheaper, higher skill set, better two-way player, etc. They obviously have not replaced Lidstrom as Suter was the team's target and he signed with the Wild. So they need to do something here.

Detroit isn't the sexiest team in the league like they were from the mid 90s to the early aughts but the nucleus is there to be a consistent playoff team, something Calgary hasn't been able to do lately.
Agree with the lack of a top 2 dman, but a bit confused on the lack of top 3 forwards? Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula/Franzen is a pretty good top 3. Especially compared to the top 3 of a Phoenix or Nashville. Neither of them have a player even close to Datsyuk in their forward group.

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09-29-2012, 03:54 PM
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A guy like Doan or Richards would be nice but I think our real problems the last couple of years have been staying healthy and consistency. By consistency I'm talking about the lack of consistency in Babcock's lines. Other than the Fil - Z - Hudler line the lines were constantly changing last year.

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09-29-2012, 04:40 PM
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I agree. Those walk a mile barefooted through broken glass to win guys with some skill typically end up being difference makers in series' ...

Hank, Helm, Abby, and to a lesser extent Datsyuk are the 3 most consisent forces we have in terms of effort and consistency in the playoffs.

Tootoo could be a guy that can provide sparks and a few timely goals. Bert back in the day would have been perfect. Franzen a few years ago before he took a few concussions and had his ACL rebuilt was unstoppable at times. Size, strength, determination, skill and disregard for ones body seem to be the selling points. Cant play like this all the time or you end up like Wendel Clark (physically decimated by your mid-30s). I could see Sheahan being this type of guy for us in a few years.

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09-29-2012, 04:56 PM
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It's a minor problem considering the other problems the Wings have.

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09-29-2012, 05:13 PM
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Yeah...
I think the wings lack heart-and-soul players to a certain extent.
Especially on defense, where we must have one of the most physically ineffective defenses in NHL history.

In general, if a player lacks top end skill, they better be heart-and-soul.

No Millers. No Sammuelssons. No Bertuzzis.

And no, I don't think Abdelkader counts as heart and soul. Dude might hit and drop the gloves, but his game lacks pop.

Red Wings who play with heart-and-soul.
Datsyuk. Helm. Zetterberg.

Sometimes Cleary. Holmstrom. Sometimes Eaves, when healthy.

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09-29-2012, 05:25 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Yeah...
I think the wings lack heart-and-soul players to a certain extent.
Especially on defense, where we must have one of the most physically ineffective defenses in NHL history.

In general, if a player lacks top end skill, they better be heart-and-soul.

No Millers. No Sammuelssons. No Bertuzzis.

And no, I don't think Abdelkader counts as heart and soul. Dude might hit and drop the gloves, but his game lacks pop.

Red Wings who play with heart-and-soul.
Datsyuk. Helm. Zetterberg.

Sometimes Cleary. Holmstrom. Sometimes Eaves, when healthy.
We could really use some heart and soul guys on D. Would have really liked for us to pick up someone like Brett Clark over Colaiacovo. Guy was 2nd in the league in blocked shots last year, and he only played 18 minutes a game. We need more guys like that who are willing to give up their body.

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09-29-2012, 06:03 PM
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As much as I ragged on Cleary last year, when he was relatively healthy, especially in the play offs he was all heart and soul. Guy took on Chris Pronger, ffs.

Also got a laugh at the notion Doan > Franzen in the playoffs.

Franzen may not be tough, but he's accomplished and played at a higher level than Doan ever has in the post season.

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09-29-2012, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
We could really use some heart and soul guys on D. Would have really liked for us to pick up someone like Brett Clark over Colaiacovo. Guy was 2nd in the league in blocked shots last year, and he only played 18 minutes a game. We need more guys like that who are willing to give up their body.
It SOUNDS good, but it doesn't work.

I've watched Dallas parade in "heart" guys left and right. With the inability to sign top end talent, all they've done is add heart players and gritty shot blockers. Particularly on D. They had Karlis (RIP) when he was leading the league in blocked shots.

But it lead to some of the worst defense in the entire league, because even though they were a talented group at making those heart and soul plays, it doesn't mean much when that's how you spend the entire game in your own zone. Great Karlis, you blocked 5 shots this game... because you let the other team take 40 as you failed to clear the puck or maintain control.

Unless you're talking about the PK, you're much better off putting out a group of "soft" puck movers in the modern NHL. Detroit walked all over Dallas during the stretches when the Dallas defense was as gritty as it's ever been, and it's because Detroit had the puck 70% of the damn game. That kind of puck control starts on the blueline with quick outlets and smart clears.

In short, the last thing this team needs is a bunch of stone hands grinders slowing down the play. It's the most frustrating brand of hockey to watch and would completely handcuff the offense we do have. CC makes sense because he's another player who can push the play. Everybody wanted the Wings to get faster, right? Well, nothing faster than a snappy outlet pass.

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09-29-2012, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
It would be great if Franzen could play like Shane Doan, take over a series.
Exactly which series did Shane Doan "take over"?

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09-29-2012, 10:23 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
It SOUNDS good, but it doesn't work.

I've watched Dallas parade in "heart" guys left and right. With the inability to sign top end talent, all they've done is add heart players and gritty shot blockers. Particularly on D. They had Karlis (RIP) when he was leading the league in blocked shots.

But it lead to some of the worst defense in the entire league, because even though they were a talented group at making those heart and soul plays, it doesn't mean much when that's how you spend the entire game in your own zone. Great Karlis, you blocked 5 shots this game... because you let the other team take 40 as you failed to clear the puck or maintain control.

Unless you're talking about the PK, you're much better off putting out a group of "soft" puck movers in the modern NHL. Detroit walked all over Dallas during the stretches when the Dallas defense was as gritty as it's ever been, and it's because Detroit had the puck 70% of the damn game. That kind of puck control starts on the blueline with quick outlets and smart clears.

In short, the last thing this team needs is a bunch of stone hands grinders slowing down the play. It's the most frustrating brand of hockey to watch and would completely handcuff the offense we do have. CC makes sense because he's another player who can push the play. Everybody wanted the Wings to get faster, right? Well, nothing faster than a snappy outlet pass.
You need a mix of both. signing CC when you already have 5 guys who play the same guy as CC is worthless. Signing Clark when you already have puck-movers like Kronwalll, Quincey, Smith, and White makes a lot of sense. Those are all guys who have snappy outlet passes and are good on the PP. We need guys who play a stay-at-home game and block shots with their face. Guys who compliment playing with guys who like to pinch and join the rush. Guys that allow players like Kronwall and Smith to have the freedom to help create offense. At least that is what I would like. All we have right now is Ericsson that plays a game that is even close to that. Would be nice to have another stay at home, defense first D.

What team that is any good in the league right now uses a defensive model like you suggest? The Kings had Willie Mitchell, Andy Greene, and Rob Scuderi on their defense. The Devils had Mark Fayne, Anton Volchenkov, and Bryce Salvador. The Rangers have Dan Girardi and Mark Staal. These are stay at home, defense first guys on very successful teams. The Stars suck because they have Goligoski and that's their only puck-mover. I'm not saying lets play 6 Brett Clark's, but I'm saying bringing in a Brett Clark to compliment our 4 puck moving, offense first D is a lot more beneficial than bringing in a 5th puck moving offense first D.

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09-29-2012, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
A guy like Doan or Richards would be nice but I think our real problems the last couple of years have been staying healthy and consistency. By consistency I'm talking about the lack of consistency in Babcock's lines. Other than the Fil - Z - Hudler line the lines were constantly changing last year.
Wasn't constantly changing lines even within a game a staple of the Scotty Bowman coaching system? I'd argue that now most team rotate lines as much or more than Detroit. Very very few lines are set in stone anymore unless they are elite lines line Sedin/Sedin/Burrows or Perry/Getzlaf/Ryan. Even Crosby and Malkin don't have set linemates.

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09-29-2012, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
You need a mix of both. signing CC when you already have 5 guys who play the same guy as CC is worthless. Signing Clark when you already have puck-movers like Kronwalll, Quincey, Smith, and White makes a lot of sense. Those are all guys who have snappy outlet passes and are good on the PP. We need guys who play a stay-at-home game and block shots with their face. Guys who compliment playing with guys who like to pinch and join the rush. Guys that allow players like Kronwall and Smith to have the freedom to help create offense. At least that is what I would like. All we have right now is Ericsson that plays a game that is even close to that. Would be nice to have another stay at home, defense first D.

What team that is any good in the league right now uses a defensive model like you suggest? The Kings had Willie Mitchell, Andy Greene, and Rob Scuderi on their defense. The Devils had Mark Fayne, Anton Volchenkov, and Bryce Salvador. The Rangers have Dan Girardi and Mark Staal. These are stay at home, defense first guys on very successful teams. The Stars suck because they have Goligoski and that's their only puck-mover. I'm not saying lets play 6 Brett Clark's, but I'm saying bringing in a Brett Clark to compliment our 4 puck moving, offense first D is a lot more beneficial than bringing in a 5th puck moving offense first D.
Yep. Ken Holland doubled down on wimpiness when he signed CC.

Our defense is awful.

We're two serious moves away from having a competent defense.
We need a true first pairing defenseman on the right side.
We need a true PK/Shutdown defenseman.

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09-29-2012, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Yep. Ken Holland doubled down on wimpiness when he signed CC.

Our defense is awful.

We're two serious moves away from having a competent defense.
We need a true first pairing defenseman on the right side.
We need a true PK/Shutdown defenseman.
The only problem is its a lot easier to say what moves we need to do than to actually be able to make them.

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09-30-2012, 12:40 AM
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The only problem is its a lot easier to say what moves we need to do than to actually be able to make them.
Obviously.

You lose Lidstrom, Stuart and Rafalski over two years, you've got problems.

Replacing those guys is a hard job. No question.

And Holland, so far, is nowhere even close to replacing those guys yet.

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09-30-2012, 12:41 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
As much as I ragged on Cleary last year, when he was relatively healthy, especially in the play offs he was all heart and soul. Guy took on Chris Pronger, ffs.

Also got a laugh at the notion Doan > Franzen in the playoffs.

Franzen may not be tough, but he's accomplished and played at a higher level than Doan ever has in the post season.
Franzen has been a great goal scorer in the playoffs, but I wish he would do more stuff like this.


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09-30-2012, 09:44 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Agree with the lack of a top 2 dman, but a bit confused on the lack of top 3 forwards? Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula/Franzen is a pretty good top 3. Especially compared to the top 3 of a Phoenix or Nashville. Neither of them have a player even close to Datsyuk in their forward group.
I consider Pavs to be our #1 player and the center for the top line. He hasn't had very high quality linemates lately. I am a bit down on Mule as I think he's going to drop in production very quickly. I think Z is also in a downward trend. I actually think Fil is our best young-ish forward and could be a consistent 70+ point guy going forward.

So in my estimation we have one great top 3 guy in Pavs, 2 declining ones in Mule and Z, and one guy with real potential in Fil.

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09-30-2012, 09:58 AM
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Wasn't constantly changing lines even within a game a staple of the Scotty Bowman coaching system? I'd argue that now most team rotate lines as much or more than Detroit. Very very few lines are set in stone anymore unless they are elite lines line Sedin/Sedin/Burrows or Perry/Getzlaf/Ryan. Even Crosby and Malkin don't have set linemates.
I'm not just talking about the switched lines by Babcock or a coach. I'm including all the injuries we've had. I just think some constant linemates not named Bertuzzi would really help Datsyuk's line. Him not being injured would as well.

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09-30-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
I'm not just talking about the switched lines by Babcock or a coach. I'm including all the injuries we've had. I just think some constant linemates not named Bertuzzi would really help Datsyuk's line. Him not being injured would as well.
We have an overload of bottom 6 forwards. Z is surrounded by good talent in Fil and Nyquist (in place of Hudler). Pavs needs some legit top 3 talent. Mule was once reliable in that role but that is no longer the case. Bert is a bottom 6 player at this point in his career.

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09-30-2012, 10:19 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
We have an overload of bottom 6 forwards. Z is surrounded by good talent in Fil and Nyquist (in place of Hudler). Pavs needs some legit top 3 talent. Mule was once reliable in that role but that is no longer the case. Bert is a bottom 6 player at this point in his career.
Agreed. Bertuzzi is by far my least favorite Wing. His only real use is in the shootout.

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