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Old
09-30-2012, 06:06 PM
  #51
The Chiddler
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Can't disagree with anything you wrote. I really hope that the Bourque from last year isn't the "real" one as you say. It's also not just the fact that he was thrown into an unfortunate scenario but, like you say in your opening, I prefer to give him a clean slate anot not ponder on what he did as a Flame. It's pretty much a wash between them right now in my opinion.
If you traded for Kule, wouldn't he get a clean slate too? Bourque can get really hot and it seems like he's piling on the points, but even when he's hot he'll seem lazy and he still won't back check, which makes him an infuriating player to watch.

Last year Kulemin seemed like the exact opposite, he never got hot at all but he never stopped working and he was the best defensive forward on the team. I think I take the player that always gives you an effort, even if he isn't scoring, but that's my preference. I personally take Kulemin from last year over Bourque when he's putting up 40-50 points, but as a Leaf fan I'm tired of watching guys put up decent points while putting out next to minimun effort on the other parts of the game (Stajan, Wellwood, Blake, Ponikarovsky, Mitchell, Hagman... painful list)

Anybody that says they just don't want him on their team, doesn't watch him play.

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Old
09-30-2012, 06:10 PM
  #52
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It doesn't make sense for the Leafs to trade Kulemin right now. Regardless of what we know of his top six capabilities, he's an extremely valuable asset as a third line checking winger, which the Leafs do not have much of.

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Old
09-30-2012, 06:19 PM
  #53
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I'd give up anyone on that list other than Gallagher for him. There's no reason for the Leafs to do this. He's hit 30 once already and he could do it again. Although he'll probably be a 20 goal scorer in my opinion.

This is just a weird proposal with no basis.

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Old
09-30-2012, 06:43 PM
  #54
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Kulemin isn't on the block, so he's not going to be traded for odds and ends.

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Old
09-30-2012, 06:49 PM
  #55
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What people define as soft teams is different for every person.

In terms of fighting, yes, the leafs will probably be soft next season. I doubt we dress a fighter on a consistent basis. We do have a fighter or two we can dress though.

In regards to hitting, the leafs defensive corps will still be one of the higher hitting groups next season. We lose Schenn and that ice time will likely be going to Komi/Holzer both of who hit as well, not a whole lot loss back there in my opinion. Forward wise we have some hitters, just lacking it in our top 6. Our bottom 6 although not throwing big hits, will not shy away from playing the body. Without adding up the hits from each respective team and taking into account some players lost/gained during the offseason (Prust, Armstrong, McClement, JVR) it looks to be about even in overall hitting, Montreal having more coming from their top 6.

That said, soft could also refer to board work and ability to stay strong on the puck. Can't say I know exactly who is good at this on Montreal but JVR and Lupul are good at this on Toronto.

Then there is also just plain looking at players size. But that always doesn't tell the whole story. Every team has some players who play bigger than they are. And since this is completely subjective I won't bother trying to compare teams since nobody will agree.

Leafs just like every team has their weaknesses when it comes to playing soft. The leafs major one this year will probably be not dressing a fighter every night for those games that you don't think will get out of hand but end up getting rough. As that other poster said, we have Phaneuf and Komi who are willing to drop the gloves but are not that great of fighters. I don't think we should be trading for a player with this quality though, we have some prospects coming up who are more than willing to fight. Hell, even Rielly got in a fight the other night. Any problems the leafs have at being soft will be solved soon enough.

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Old
09-30-2012, 06:55 PM
  #56
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All I see are habs fans undervaluing Kulemin.
He'll bounce back, but even if he doesn't he is a good big 2 way player that is still young and throws the body, I'm not interested in giving him up unless its for a player who is better defensively and throws the body. Our problem last year wasn't offense

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Old
09-30-2012, 06:55 PM
  #57
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I'd rather keep Kulemin.

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Old
09-30-2012, 06:58 PM
  #58
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Anyone who actually watches Kulemin would keep Kulemin. Overly smug Habs fans can keep their prospects, Toronto has enough of those already.

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Old
09-30-2012, 07:03 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
Anyone who actually watches Kulemin would keep Kulemin. Overly smug Habs fans can keep their prospects, Toronto has enough of those already.
I think the general consensus is that Kulemin will end up being a 15-20 goal scorer, which i agree with. His production might have gone down last year, but his defensive play/physicality didn't change at all. Even when Kulemin isn't scoring, he contributes in other aspects of the game. I'd rather hold onto a 2-way 15-20 goal scorer who can slot anywhere in top 9, than trade him for a bunch of maybe's that we already have enough of.

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Old
09-30-2012, 07:07 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TheSilencer View Post
I think the general consensus is that Kulemin will end up being a 15-20 goal scorer, which i agree with. His production might have gone down last year, but his defensive play/physicality didn't change at all. Even when Kulemin isn't scoring, he contributes in other aspects of the game. I'd rather hold onto a 2-way 15-20 goal scorer who can slot anywhere in top 9, than trade him for a bunch of maybe's that we already have enough of.
Sounds like Kostitsyn to me, only he was a consistent 20 goal scorer. Though in return, he never hit 30 either. Most Habs fans would bring him back too... honestly I think that is exactly why this thread exists.

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Old
09-30-2012, 07:22 PM
  #61
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I Toronto passes. I'm trying to pick the best 3 assets out of the listed and it's just not enough. Maybe if you threw Collberg in as an option.

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Old
09-30-2012, 07:28 PM
  #62
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From a leafs fan, nope.

Even if Kulemin doesn't regain his scoring touch, he is an extremely valuable member of the team. We don't have guys who can step in and replace Kulemin.

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Old
09-30-2012, 07:28 PM
  #63
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I don't know if I'd do this, but Gallagher+Kristo+2nd round pick 2013 is an interesting offer.

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Old
09-30-2012, 07:52 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PATCHESx67 View Post
Patches >>>>>>> Kulemin
We all know that.Anyone with half a brain knows that Patches >> Kulemin

As for the offer i can understand why the Leafs wouldn't.
It's a fair offer from the Habs but the Leafs still want to give Kulemin another shot.
He could very well break out when the season returns or he could just fail.
The Leafs are gamblen he will become better.


Last edited by mytor4*: 10-01-2012 at 04:54 AM.
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Old
09-30-2012, 08:13 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topdog View Post
We all know that.Anyone with half a brain knows that.

As for the offer i can understand why the Leafs wouldn't.
It's a fair offer from the Habs but the Leafs still want to give Kulemin another shot.
He could very well break out when the season returns or he could just fail.
The Leafs are gamblen he will become better.
Its all production?

I would say Patches is a better offensive player, hands down.

Kulemin has all the other areas locked up.

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Old
09-30-2012, 08:16 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Its all production?

I would say Patches is a better offensive player, hands down.

Kulemin has all the other areas locked up.
Not after last season.You need to watch a little more of Patches.

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Old
09-30-2012, 08:24 PM
  #67
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I would take him on the habs for sure but not at a huge cost. He has value but last season's poor play lowered his value.


Leafs are better off to keep him as they would never get decent value for him.

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Old
09-30-2012, 09:30 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Hell no from the Leafs.


I love how the same people saying Kulemin is a one-year wonder counter with another one-year wonder.
Over the past two years Kulemin has a GPG of .24 and Pacioretty's is .41

Not to mention the fact that he's 3 years younger than Kulemin.

As for the trade, definite no from the Habs, if we needed a top 6 forward from the Leafs I'd much rather get MacArthur who's not so inconsistent.

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Old
09-30-2012, 09:39 PM
  #69
BonMorrison
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Over the past two years Kulemin has a GPG of .24 and Pacioretty's is .41

Not to mention the fact that he's 3 years younger than Kulemin.

As for the trade, definite no from the Habs, if we needed a top 6 forward from the Leafs I'd much rather get MacArthur who's not so inconsistent.
Erm ...

MacArthur is horribly inconsistent and to double the problem, when he's inconsistent, he's absolutely useless. Atleast Kulemin is still contributing when he's not scoring - there was a period of a few weeks last year where Mac was dropped to the fourth line. Kulemin scored seven goals and never got that treatment because he was still atleast doing something on the ice.

This thread needs to be burned to the ground. All I'm seeing is Pacioretty and Kulemin being both under and overrated by both fanbases.

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Old
09-30-2012, 09:51 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
Erm ...

This thread needs to be burned to the ground. All I'm seeing is Pacioretty and Kulemin being both under and overrated by both fanbases.
Montreal isn't going to be trading Pacioretty and he was never offered and Kulemin is available for the right piece, namely, a centre or a goalie - something Montreal doesn't have to give. Not the answer I was hoping to hear but that's how things go.

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Old
09-30-2012, 10:34 PM
  #71
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Kulemin is so overated. Im sorry but 30 to 7 goals is ridiculous, how can you rely on him at all. I would take the risk of having Bourque for 2 years, plus a 2nd rounder anyday.

Consider what Kulemin really brings to the team besides a big body, i really cant see him being a locker room favorite amongst teammates. Guy barely speaks English. In my opinion if you can get another big body guy who can keep up with Mac and Grabo skating wise, you take it!

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Old
09-30-2012, 10:38 PM
  #72
Gavy
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In my opinion if you can get another big body guy who can keep up with Mac and Grabo skating wise, you take it!
You lost all credibility right here

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Old
09-30-2012, 10:41 PM
  #73
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You lost all credibility right here
Care to explain?

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Old
09-30-2012, 11:04 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
Counter:

To toronto: Patches

To MTL: choice of Bozak, Connolly, Franson, Blacker + 2nd rounder
The difference here...

Kulemin: 26 years old.
NHL Career: 76 games, 17 goals, 38 points
Last year: 70 games, 7 goals, 28 points

Pacioretty: 23 years old
Last year: 79 games, 33 goals, 65 points (First year he's been in the NHL for the whole season i.e. 55+ games)

The stats corroborate what you can see with your own eyes: Paches is a highly-talented offensive player. That's why he was a first-round draft selection. (Not that being a first-round pick means much, but it is indication that at least one GM saw a high talent level in him.) Kulemin simply doesn't have that kind of skill level.

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Old
09-30-2012, 11:35 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
The difference here...

Kulemin: 26 years old.
NHL Career: 76 games, 17 goals, 38 points
Last year: 70 games, 7 goals, 28 points

Pacioretty: 23 years old
Last year: 79 games, 33 goals, 65 points (First year he's been in the NHL for the whole season i.e. 55+ games)

The stats corroborate what you can see with your own eyes: Paches is a highly-talented offensive player. That's why he was a first-round draft selection. (Not that being a first-round pick means much, but it is indication that at least one GM saw a high talent level in him.) Kulemin simply doesn't have that kind of skill level.
Yeah, look at Kulemin's worst year and Pacioretty's best year. That sounds fair.
Yeah, look at Kulemin's career and ignore the previous 123 games that Pacioretty played. That sounds fair.
Yeah, look at draft position from 5-6 years ago to determine the better player. That sounds fair.



Kulemin has all the skill that Pacioretty does. The only question is who can put it together on a consistent basis. Neither have proven that yet.

The only things we do know are that because Pacioretty is younger and has played fewer games (and therefore has an equal time-frame but a higher percentage of GP at a high level), the chance that he will find that consistency is slightly higher, while Kulemin is better defensively and in other areas of the game.

Last off-season, Kulemin was unquestionably the better player. Now this off-season, you all are saying Pacioretty is unquestionably the better player for doing the exact same thing Kulemin did the year before.

Just goes to show how neither are unquestionably better. Neither fan base wants to trade their player. Move on.

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