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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part III (First 2 weeks of season cancelled)

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Old
10-01-2012, 04:55 AM
  #276
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Bill Daly said the issues discussed this weekend were discussed last in 2004-05. They were discussed in July 2005. Chris Johnston of the CP spoke to a veteran labor negotiator last week who said the NHL and NHLPA are discussing these issues now so they can begin the season when they hammer out the economic and systems issues. Even Daly said the weekend issues need to be addressed before a new CBA is done.

The NHL will probably cancel the start of the season games in a few days. Its still possible to play all 82 games if they can get a deal done later this week or early next week. 10 day camp. Scratch the ASG in Columbus. That saves a week. Add 1 or 2 weeks to the regular season. Kevin Allen of USA Today reported last week the players feel they need 7-9 days to get ready.

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10-01-2012, 09:16 AM
  #277
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Barch statements are ridulous on several levels.
His comments about "Cognanc drinking cigar smoking owners in one of their five homes" particulalr bothers me. Doesn't he understand that is EXACTLY how the fans look at him (and anyone else who is pulling in $875k per year)?
Everything is relative. Disparaging someone because they have alot of money is stupid. There are good guys who own teams and bad guys who own teams, just like players.

I disagree about contraction. Every NHL player is really good today as opposed to 20 years ago. Barch and Prust could skate circles around the grinders of the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

The locations of the teams is problematic and is in part due to cost of tickets. Because the NHL has such a small TV contract owners have to make money from tickets. People will show up in Long Island, Dallas, Sunrise, Florida, Tampa, Phoenix, Columbus and pay good money when the team is good, but they aren't shelling out $100 a night for an average/bad team.

When baseball went through their labor issues everyone wanted to get rid of the Twins I remember. 5 years later when they were in the playoffs, they were selling out and eventually got themselves a beatiful new statidum.

Revenue sharing is the only real answer.

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10-01-2012, 09:53 AM
  #278
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It's going to be a very long winter me thinks...

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Old
10-01-2012, 09:57 AM
  #279
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"@Real_ESPNLeBrun: NHLPA holding 3 pm ET conference call with negotiating committee (60-plus players) to update everyone on where things stand in CBA talks"

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Old
10-01-2012, 10:12 AM
  #280
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The only positive out of all this garbage is it gives Sauer more time to recover....

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10-01-2012, 10:15 AM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Sorry but thats not true.

Because some players haven't reached the NHL yet or have no interest in the league means that every player in the NHL is better?

Colton ****ing Orr played in the league. There is no argument to be made that proves he has an business playing in the NHL otherthan he can punch a face real hard.

If the league were cut back down to 26-28 teams thats about 46 players cut. I'm sure a list of 46 players can be made of players like Orr who have zero business skating in the NHL.

The PA knows it. Thats why Barch is drunk and whining on twitter.

There are a lot of people with positions of importance or whose opinions are respected that have been saying the same things on NHL radio.

The core issue is the size of the league and the location of some of those teams.
This shouldnt be an argument about skill, but rather an argument about roles. Do you honestly think contracting teams is going to ensure that theres less Colton Orr's in the league? Every team would still fill their roster with 1 or 2 tough guys - thats the way its been for several decades in hockey.

The truth is there'd be lost jobs for everyone with contracting - skill players and enforcer types. The utopia you're presenting where the league contracts and then consists of the top 400 or so skill players in the world not only isnt feasible, but it just isnt how hockey rosters have been created for 40+ years.

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10-01-2012, 10:34 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Mio41 View Post
The only positive out of all this garbage is it gives Sauer more time to recover....
and gaborik and mcilrath and errybody elsee

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Old
10-01-2012, 11:04 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
I disagree about contraction. Every NHL player is really good today as opposed to 20 years ago. Barch and Prust could skate circles around the grinders of the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
When you have a business that is not meant for it's market, then you have just that. The athletes from any era are better than any old era. The point is that becuase of expansion, you have created a watered down league. Are you going to tell me that Barch is nor replaceable with someone better? Contract, and you will still have grinders. Just ones who are FAR better that the Prust's and Barches of the world.
Quote:
The locations of the teams is problematic and is in part due to cost of tickets. Because the NHL has such a small TV contract owners have to make money from tickets. People will show up in Long Island, Dallas, Sunrise, Florida, Tampa, Phoenix, Columbus and pay good money when the team is good, but they aren't shelling out $100 a night for an average/bad team.
The location is problematic and ticket prices have nothing to do with it. That is like saying that any business on the open market that is not selling is soley problematic becuase of price. Location, location, location. In business. And in the NHL. expansion into warmer most of thse cities was a horrible idea. Putting a round peg into a square hole. The only think that people in Atlanta care about are the Georgia Bulldogs. Does Florida REALLY need more than one hockey team? Phoenix? Was this test marketed?
Quote:
When baseball went through their labor issues everyone wanted to get rid of the Twins I remember. 5 years later when they were in the playoffs, they were selling out and eventually got themselves a beatiful new statidum.
You CANNOT compare a hockey team to a baseball team.

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Old
10-01-2012, 11:20 AM
  #284
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Yeah, not one of the teams with financial issues is in that predicament because of location. Not one.

And also, the idea that Florida is a single market is beyond ludicrous. Tampa is slightly further from Sunrise than New York City is from Washington DC. The single reason that Tampa does not have all 4 major sports is because the NBA elected to put an expansion team in Orlando instead.

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Old
10-01-2012, 11:23 AM
  #285
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Contraction would put more star/top tier players on each team and less borderline players on each team. It would automatically raise the quality of the game.

Obviously the same could be said for any sport in theory.

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10-01-2012, 11:25 AM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipNash27 View Post
Contraction would put more star/top tier players on each team and less borderline players on each team. It would automatically raise the quality of the game.

Obviously the same could be said for any sport in theory.
Actually, there are plenty of people who would say that would reduce the quality of the game. The more top notch defensive defensemen there are on teams, the less flow the game is going to have. The Dead Puck Era was a direct result of an increase in overall league talent.

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Old
10-01-2012, 11:28 AM
  #287
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Bill Daly is an amusing fella.

Quote:
"I hate to sound like a broken record, but we need some movement on the economic issues. We need some movement on the system issues," NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said. "We need them to be scheduled as the subject of a meeting, and right now the union is not prepared to do that."
Quote:
"We covered a lot of things over the last three days," Daly said. "We both have a lot of homework projects to do and drafts we owe each other on certain things. We think (Monday) would be best used for that purpose.
It's an inherent contradiction. The NHLPA wanted to meet today to discuss HRR issues. The NHL did not. Yet Daly says the players don't want to discuss core economic issues.

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10-01-2012, 11:36 AM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
When you have a business that is not meant for it's market, then you have just that. The athletes from any era are better than any old era. The point is that becuase of expansion, you have created a watered down league. Are you going to tell me that Barch is nor replaceable with someone better? Contract, and you will still have grinders. Just ones who are FAR better that the Prust's and Barches of the world.

The location is problematic and ticket prices have nothing to do with it. That is like saying that any business on the open market that is not selling is soley problematic becuase of price. Location, location, location. In business. And in the NHL. expansion into warmer most of thse cities was a horrible idea. Putting a round peg into a square hole. The only think that people in Atlanta care about are the Georgia Bulldogs. Does Florida REALLY need more than one hockey team? Phoenix? Was this test marketed?

You CANNOT compare a hockey team to a baseball team.
Obviously, if you have less teams you'll have better players. My point is that teams are not in trouble because of the quality of play in the league as a whole (which is better than it's ever been), but rather the quality of their team's play.

I think we would agree that Bettman and team over valued the impact of certain things (In line hockey, the "Gretzky" effect in LA, etc) that caused them to expand too rapidly. I am not suggesting they didn't. I don't think you can put the toothpaste back in the tube though.

My point about the Twins was not to compare baseball and hockey but to make a simple analogy. There are weak franchises in every sport. Generally speaking, they are weak because of poor management which leads to poor performance and those things tend to work in cycles. We talk about Canadien teams like they have a license tio print money. Those teams struggled mightily when the Canadien dollar was depressed to the point where two re-located.

It's all cyclical and whenever franchises struggle everyone screams "re locate or contract". I think the game is good eneough to become viable in warm weather markets if handled properly.

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10-01-2012, 12:30 PM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
"@Real_ESPNLeBrun: NHLPA holding 3 pm ET conference call with negotiating committee (60-plus players) to update everyone on where things stand in CBA talks"
It's really a waste of time if they arent going to talk about positive movement and only use the media to take a stab at the NHL

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Old
10-01-2012, 01:22 PM
  #290
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Quote:
#NHL & #NHLPA have a conference call this pm on player pension issues. Meeting in NY tomorrow on the HRR issues discussed on Saturday.
https://twitter.com/LouisJean_TVA/st...34718268137472

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Old
10-01-2012, 01:25 PM
  #291
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Quote:
"I believe in my heart, maybe because I'm such a big hockey fan, that they will be playing by Jan. 1," said Gretzky during a question and answer period at a panel discussion on personal finance. "I think the hard part of their deal was the last negotiations (in 2004) of players agreeing to a salary cap.

"Now that there is a salary cap in place, and revenue sharing, I see them ultimately getting a deal done here and I see them playing hockey this year."
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=406504

I agree with him.

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Old
10-01-2012, 01:31 PM
  #292
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The NHL and PA didn't meet today because both sides needed to prepare drafts of what they agreed to/discussed on the weekend. The lawyers write the articles in the CBA.

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10-01-2012, 01:35 PM
  #293
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Good that they're meeting on the big issue tomorrow.

Hopefully some progress can be made.

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Old
10-01-2012, 01:45 PM
  #294
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Quote:
While it's only matter of time til NHL reg season games are officially cancelled, word is NHL hasn't decided yet exactly when or how many.
https://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie/s...39617802407936

Elliotte Friedman had tweeted the NHL would be cancel games in two week blocks.

Quote:
NHL teams preparing for regular-season cancellations this week. Expectations games will be erased in two-week "blocks."
https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/stat...01034215370753

October 10-24

McKenzie tweets that's not the case.

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10-01-2012, 02:20 PM
  #295
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Florida is a big market, but for hockey it can support one team at best. Other sports, two or more surely.

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10-01-2012, 03:07 PM
  #296
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We will have hockey before the winter classic game. They don't want to lose that money. I'm thinking late December, so we will miss 2 full months

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10-01-2012, 03:20 PM
  #297
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Defining what is in HRR will be the topic on Tuesday. Same topic as Saturday.

Quote:
"I'm not sure we've identified discrepancies," NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said. "What we're trying to do today is create certainty on interpretations we've had over the past seven years of this CBA's operation, so we're really just looking to codify interpretations going ahead."
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/84...again-new-york

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10-01-2012, 04:07 PM
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Florida is a big market, but for hockey it can support one team at best. Other sports, two or more surely.
You sure about that? Rays and Marlins have both been noted for their attendance issues. Marlins just got a new park so I think the Rays could wind up being relocated at some point. People talk about how the park is in a bad location and a bad neighborhood and I could buy that as a reason not to go for mediocre/decent teams but they've put out an extremely good product over the last couple of years and can barely draw.

NFL has three teams and at some point Jacksonville will relocate as they don't draw at all. Even Tampa Bay and Miami haven't been selling out. Tampa had their opener blacked out at home even with the new NFL blackout rule that's supposed to help minimized the amount of blackouts.

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10-01-2012, 04:09 PM
  #299
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Well. The bright side is that at least they're meeting. The downside is they seem to be talking golf or something because each side is saying different things about the meetings.

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10-01-2012, 04:33 PM
  #300
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Florida is a crappy sports market. Too many northern transplants who stick with their old teams once they move down there.

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