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Leaf fans: would you trade kadri for luongo?

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Old
10-01-2012, 05:31 PM
  #326
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Lets say, Kadri + gunner for example for luongo?

Curious, considering all the drama surrounding Kadri.
Here's the confusing part...

The thread title is about whether or not the Leafs should be prepared to trade Kadri for Luongo. The correct answer, of course, will depend on where the cap ends up.

However, you happen to just "throw" Gunnarsson in there, despite him being the more valuable commodity to the Leafs.

There's nothing wrong (notionally) with trading Kadri for Luongo. He's the Leafs most valuable expendable piece, is in need of a change of scenery, and as long as the cap doesn't fall to the low 60s/high 50s without a rollback, is at a fixed (non-declining) percentage of league-wide revenues (or at least close to it) and doesn't treat retirement deals too harshly, then sure. Luongo fills what is arguably our biggest need. If some of those happen, the Leafs will go after a Nicklas Backstrom in Minnesota or something like that.

However, there is something wrong with trading your most reliable defneceman, who makes $1.3m, and is 25 years old, for Luongo.

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10-01-2012, 05:33 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Here's the confusing part...

The thread title is about whether or not the Leafs should be prepared to trade Kadri for Luongo. The correct answer, of course, will depend on where the cap ends up.

However, you happen to just "throw" Gunnarsson in there, despite him being the more valuable commodity to the Leafs.

There's nothing wrong (notionally) with trading Kadri for Luongo. He's the Leafs most valuable expendable piece, is in need of a change of scenery, and as long as the cap doesn't fall to the low 60s/high 50s without a rollback, is at a fixed (non-declining) percentage of league-wide revenues (or at least close to it) and doesn't treat retirement deals too harshly, then sure. Luongo fills what is arguably our biggest need. If some of those happen, the Leafs will go after a Nicklas Backstrom in Minnesota or something like that.

However, there is something wrong with trading your most reliable defneceman, who makes $1.3m, and is 25 years old, for Luongo.
I think he simply didn't know how important Gunnarsson is to Toronto. He probably saw him as a throw-in similar to Macarthur.

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10-01-2012, 05:33 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Off the top of my head, Weber, Suter, Luongo, Parise, Kovalchuk, Hossa, Dipietro, Crosby, Franzen, there's probably more, but you get the idea.
Crosby is kind of expected to play until he's 35 so you basically listed the few teams who have cap circumvention contracts which includes Vancouver because of Luongo. How do you think the league will handle these contracts under the new CBA after warning teams not to make them?

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10-01-2012, 05:35 PM
  #329
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Gunnarson doesn't really fill a need in Vancouver and Kadri just hasn't shown enough, IMO, to be the basis of a deal. I also think Van wants a player who can step in and help now. Not in a couple of years. Rather than getting a couple of players who don't really address needs I'd rather target a player who fills an immediate need.

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10-01-2012, 05:36 PM
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Is this not clear?
I want a simple Yes/No, no caveats, to this question. If Burke does not trade for Luongo, and his team misses the playoffs, does he finally get fired? Yes/No? Thanks in advance.

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10-01-2012, 05:36 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think he simply didn't know how important Gunnarsson is to Toronto. He probably saw him as a throw-in similar to Macarthur.
MacArthur is not a throw in.

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10-01-2012, 05:39 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I want a simple Yes/No, no caveats, to this question. If Burke does not trade for Luongo, and his team misses the playoffs, does he finally get fired? Yes/No? Thanks in advance.
You're being thick for the sake of being thick, there's much more then trading for Luongo and making the playoffs to give a concrete answer if Burke could be fired.

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10-01-2012, 05:39 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I want a simple Yes/No, no caveats, to this question. If Burke does not trade for Luongo, and his team misses the playoffs, does he finally get fired? Yes/No? Thanks in advance.
No. He won`t get an extension, but he won`t be fired.

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10-01-2012, 05:43 PM
  #334
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With Salary Cap:

No to Kadri + for Loungo

With-out Salary Cap:

I think this is a no brainer for Leafs.

Either way Van should not be doing this deal.

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10-01-2012, 05:43 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
You're being thick for the sake of being thick, there's much more then trading for Luongo and making the playoffs to give a concrete answer if Burke could be fired.
Yet you gave an answer to my question?... Are you being thick too?

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10-01-2012, 05:44 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I want a simple Yes/No, no caveats, to this question. If Burke does not trade for Luongo, and his team misses the playoffs, does he finally get fired? Yes/No? Thanks in advance.
You're asking multiple questions here....

The first, is whether or not Burke would get fired for missing the playoffs? That I don't know (and nobody does), IMO he deserves to be fired, but I also don't think that's necessarily an ultimatum put on him this year.

The second, is how trading for Luongo interplays with that. I think the Leafs chances of making the playoffs increases with Luongo in almost all circumstances, but also makes it more likely that he's fired in the case of missing the playoffs.

If he goes for it and makes the now move at the cost of the future, i.e. trading for Luongo instead of developing Reimer, basically equivalent to Vancouver keeping Luongo instead of developing Schneider (in fact worse when you consider the value drop that a player gets from being traded), and fails, then he's probably more likely to be fired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think he simply didn't know how important Gunnarsson is to Toronto. He probably saw him as a throw-in similar to Macarthur.
MacArthur isn't a throw-in by any stretch of the imagination, at least not right now. That's Lombardi. Mac's a valuable winger (nowhere near as valuable as Gunnarsson on the blue line) to the Leafs, and would be available to get another blueliner, or probably 3rd/4th on the pecking list of players to dump for cap considerations if necessary.


Last edited by seanlinden: 10-01-2012 at 05:53 PM.
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10-01-2012, 05:45 PM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
No. He won`t get an extension, but he won`t be fired.
Why would he not get an extention if he is sticking to his "building for the future" plan?

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10-01-2012, 05:46 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
Crosby is kind of expected to play until he's 35 so you basically listed the few teams who have cap circumvention contracts which includes Vancouver because of Luongo. How do you think the league will handle these contracts under the new CBA after warning teams not to make them?
So let me get this straight, if the players don't want them gone, and a lot of the owners have these players on the books-

Vancouver(Luongo)
Nashville(Weber)
Minnesota(Suter/Parise)
Buffalo(Ehrhoff)
New Jersey(Kovalchuk)
Philadelphia(Pronger/Bryzgalov)
Detroit(Franzen)
NYI(DiPietro)
NYR(Richards)
LA(Carter)
Chicago(Hossa)
Boston(Chara)
Tampa Bay(Lecavalier)
Phoenix(Doan)
Florida(Jovanovski)

Are all teams with players expected to retire before their contract is up. Half the teams in the league. Why on earth would they try to penalize themselves?

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10-01-2012, 05:49 PM
  #339
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Pretty sure that the Canucks are not interested in Kadri. The team has stated that its offseason goal was to get bigger and meaner, Kadri doesn't really fit thedescriptioon. That and Loungo's desire to go to Toronto probably did a faceplant the minute that they fired Allaire.

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10-01-2012, 05:51 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
MacArthur is not a throw in.
He also doesn't address a Canucks need.

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10-01-2012, 05:51 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So let me get this straight, if the players don't want them gone, and a lot of the owners have these players on the books-

Vancouver(Luongo)
Nashville(Weber)
Minnesota(Suter/Parise)
Buffalo(Ehrhoff)
New Jersey(Kovalchuk)
Philadelphia(Pronger/Bryzgalov)
Detroit(Franzen)
NYI(DiPietro)
NYR(Richards)
LA(Carter)
Chicago(Hossa)
Boston(Chara)
Tampa Bay(Lecavalier)
Phoenix(Doan)
Florida(Jovanovski)

Are all teams with players expected to retire before their contract is up. Half the teams in the league. Why on earth would they try to penalize themselves?
Making teams carry a cap hit for the contracts they signed in the first place isn't punishment. Unless of course they complain when they have to abide by them because there's something wrong with said contracts.

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10-01-2012, 05:53 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Yet you gave an answer to my question?... Are you being thick too?
That's because I've already explained there's much more to be Burke being fired then just trading for Luongo and making the playoffs, as have others.

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10-01-2012, 05:53 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Whale View Post
Pretty sure that the Canucks are not interested in Kadri. The team has stated that its offseason goal was to get bigger and meaner, Kadri doesn't really fit thedescriptioon. That and Loungo's desire to go to Toronto probably did a faceplant the minute that they fired Allaire.
I dunno after Kadri came into camp being in the bottom 5 of testing he might help us get bigger.

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10-01-2012, 05:59 PM
  #344
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At first I was like hell yes and then i double checked his contract and now i'm like hell no.

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10-01-2012, 05:59 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by The Hendog View Post
Valid points indeed

However from everything I have read and heard - I doubt Luongo waives his NTC to go to Columbus so take them off the list anyway
It's not impossible and that's why we've been kind of ambivalent to discuss the idea. That said, we don't think it as astronomically unlikely as some seem to assume.

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10-01-2012, 05:59 PM
  #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
That's because I've already explained there's much more to be Burke being fired then just trading for Luongo and making the playoffs, as have others.

So if you have explained your stance, and Smoke meat pete has as well, why have you ventured a yes/no to my question, without caveat, and he hasn't?


Why would he be unwilling to answer the question in the same way you have? (Note: I can think of a very good reason not to.)

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10-01-2012, 06:02 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
Smallish third line centers are available in free agency most years. 20 point dmen are available in free agency most years. Top-5 goaltenders in the NHL are not. Top-5 goaltenders are ALWAYS signed to long-term deals before they hit free agency because they are so valuable. (Just as Luongo is signed to a long term deal - the only reason he could be available is because it appears as though Vancouver has 2 top-10 goalies).


One other thing to add. Look at the other top-goalies.

Rinne 7.0 cap hit
Lundquist 6.9 cap hit
Price 6.5 cap hit
Ward 6.3 cap hit
Miller 6.3 cap hit
Kiprusoff 5.8 cap hit
Quick 5.8 cap hit

Luongo 5.3 cap hit


So people are saying Luongo has a bad contract, but he has a very nice cap hit. And it's been established (and confirmed by Luongo himself) that he will only play for the next 6 years and then retire. (And if he doesn't retire at that point than he can be sent down to the minors anyways, since he does NOT have a NMC).

So it's actually a really good contract. It's just a complicated contract.
I HIGHLY doubt the bolded part. The only flimsy reason those "retirement" contracts held up was that the players all stated when the contracts were investigated that they intended to play the entire term. Because if they stated that those back years were just there to lower the cap hit of the contract, those contracts would have violated the spirit of the salary cap and they would have gotten voided, and the teams punished (ala NJD).

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10-01-2012, 06:02 PM
  #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
Making teams carry a cap hit for the contracts they signed in the first place isn't punishment. Unless of course they complain when they have to abide by them because there's something wrong with said contracts.
But why would they do it at all? Half the teams don't want to be punished, and all the players also would like to keep their contracts.

I'd understand if for the sake of parity they prevented future contracts, but it makes no sense to penalize teams for what was completely legal.

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10-01-2012, 06:07 PM
  #349
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Why would he not get an extention if he is sticking to his "building for the future" plan?
There's going to be some heat on new ownership if they extend a guy that hasn't made the playoffs heading into his final year of his contract.

We'll see though.

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10-01-2012, 06:09 PM
  #350
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The thing that confuses me is we're told build through the draft, and then Luongo comes up and people criticize Burke for not getting the aging player with a decade left on his contract for young prospects./players.

Why shouldn't Burke play Reimer, Scrivens, Owuya?

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