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J. Kurri & W. Gretzky vs. M. Lemieux & J. Jagr

View Poll Results: Which duo will you take?
J. Kurri & W. Gretzky 152 51.70%
J. Jagr & M. Lemieux 142 48.30%
Voters: 294. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-30-2012, 05:52 PM
  #126
Slapshooter
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Which of the pair is better...

...together as a duo on the ice, including defense? Gretzky & Kurri. They were very likely the best ES duo ever in hockey.

Kurri and Gretzky played better together, because there were clear roles for both. Gretzky was all-offensive playmaker with some great goal scoring instincts. While Kurri was an excellent one-timer shooter, a decent playmaker and a very good defensive forward who was strong enough in corners. Kurri was just a perfect match for riding shotgun with Gretzky. (ie. Brett Hull was a better player than Kurri, but was a far worse choice to play with Gretzky.)

Lemieux and Jagr were even more skilled and physically superior, but they were both too similar puck hogs and did not play as good together on even strenght.

...power play? Lemieux & Jagr. Their puck handling and shooting skills are just superior. Because both are equally good in passing and shooting, Lemieux and Jagr are more unpredictable which makes them especially dangerous on PP.

...penaly kill? Gretky and Kurri. They have a better work ethic and Kurri was almost a selke caliber defensive forward.

...value from a GM point of view? Lemieux & Jagr. From an overall point of view Lemieux and Jagr are the better choice, since while Kurri is actually the best all arounder of the bunch, his individual offensive skill set just don't belong in the same class with the other three mentioned.

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Old
09-30-2012, 08:05 PM
  #127
KidLine93
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this is based on results...and Gretz has more assists than Jagr or Lemieux have total points.

Gretzky and Kurri AINEC

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Old
09-30-2012, 11:06 PM
  #128
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slapshooter View Post
Which of the pair is better...

...together as a duo on the ice, including defense? Gretzky & Kurri. They were very likely the best ES duo ever in hockey.
Better than Joe Malone and Newsy Lalonde in 1917-18? I doubt it.
Malone 20 GP, 44-4-48
Lalonde 14 GP, 23-7-30

67 goals in 34 man-games; almost 2 GPG. Almost 4 goals per actual game.

Quote:
Brett Hull was a better player than Kurri
No he wasn't. Brett Hull got high off of what Adam Oates fed him for a couple of years, and then fell back to Earth when Oates was traded for Craig Janney, who (while being an excellent passer himself) worked better with Brendan Shanahan (hence Shanny's 50-goal years). Hull was a good sniper, but he wasn't some kind of legendary talent in that area. He just had a playmaker who didn't shoot much, unlike Kurri (whose playmaker holds the NHL single-season and career records for goals scored).

Kurri is also a far better passer; he centered LA's first line for most of 1992-93 while Gretzky was injured. Robitaille proceeded to set records for LW scoring at 63 goals and 125 points (Ovechkin broke the goals record when he hit 65).

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Old
10-01-2012, 12:15 AM
  #129
TAnnala
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Better than Joe Malone and Newsy Lalonde in 1917-18? I doubt it.
Malone 20 GP, 44-4-48
Lalonde 14 GP, 23-7-30

67 goals in 34 man-games; almost 2 GPG. Almost 4 goals per actual game.



No he wasn't. Brett Hull got high off of what Adam Oates fed him for a couple of years, and then fell back to Earth when Oates was traded for Craig Janney, who (while being an excellent passer himself) worked better with Brendan Shanahan (hence Shanny's 50-goal years). Hull was a good sniper, but he wasn't some kind of legendary talent in that area. He just had a playmaker who didn't shoot much, unlike Kurri (whose playmaker holds the NHL single-season and career records for goals scored).

Kurri is also a far better passer; he centered LA's first line for most of 1992-93 while Gretzky was injured. Robitaille proceeded to set records for LW scoring at 63 goals and 125 points (Ovechkin broke the goals record when he hit 65).
Malone and Lalonde are hard to judge in the same way as we do "modern" hockey players. But true, they obviously were great together. I think i would still put Gretzky/Kurri ahead of them. Since not either of those players are considered the best player ever.

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10-01-2012, 06:03 AM
  #130
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Better than Joe Malone and Newsy Lalonde in 1917-18? I doubt it.
Malone 20 GP, 44-4-48
Lalonde 14 GP, 23-7-30

67 goals in 34 man-games; almost 2 GPG. Almost 4 goals per actual game.
Star hockey players played all played 60 minutes per game back then. Relative to their peers, Gretzky and Kurri were more dominant than Malone and Lalonde. Malone won the goals title by 8 goals in 1917-18, but only won the scoring title by 2 points over Cy Denneny.

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Old
10-01-2012, 09:05 AM
  #131
TAnnala
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Star hockey players played all played 60 minutes per game back then. Relative to their peers, Gretzky and Kurri were more dominant than Malone and Lalonde. Malone won the goals title by 8 goals in 1917-18, but only won the scoring title by 2 points over Cy Denneny.
They really played for 60 minutes? I knew that it was close to 50 minutes at some point, but was there really a point where players played the whole game?

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10-01-2012, 09:24 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
No he wasn't. Brett Hull got high off of what Adam Oates fed him for a couple of years, and then fell back to Earth when Oates was traded for Craig Janney, who (while being an excellent passer himself) worked better with Brendan Shanahan (hence Shanny's 50-goal years). Hull was a good sniper, but he wasn't some kind of legendary talent in that area
BS.

No one in the history of the game has a better one timer than Brett Hull.

No one.

(Stamkos may be about his equal imo in that regard)

At his best Brett Hull was a better overall player than Kurri -- even accounting for Kurri's defensive play, 70-86 goal seasons are pretty massive. When Kurri was a 70 goal scorer, he had Gretzky and a higher scoring season to work with.

Also while I'm sure that both Hull and Oates would agree that they played better together (and I would agree on that, they had chemsitry), the idea that Hull is a product of Oates is false.

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Originally Posted by matnor View Post
Only two players have ever broken the 70 goal barrier three times, Wayne Gretzky and Brett Hull. While Gretzky holds numerous other scoring achievements, in Hull's case that's really what stands out from his career. The only three times he scored more than 60 goals, let alone 70, was the only three seasons one of the greatest playmakers of all time, Adam Oates, played on his team. This has lead a lot of people to conclude that Oates was instrumental to Hull's extraordinary achievement. Using some game-by-game scoring logs from the HSP I thought I'd take a closer look at this. Hopefully, people who saw them play together can comment on the conclusions I draw.

1989-90 season

In their first season together Hull scored 72 goals while Oates had 79 assists. Both played the full season, 80 games. Out of Hull's 72 goals, 45 was scored at even strength. However, Oates did only assist on 14 of them. More surprising is that that is the same amount of assists as the left-winger on Hull's line, Sergio Momesso, had. Momesso wasn't really a first-line caliber player so it is surprising that he had as many assists as Oates. One reason for this is that Oates wasn't Hull's center the entire season. Peter Zezel seems to have centered Hull for part of the season, he had 8 assists on Hull's goals at even strength. No other player had more than 5 ES assists.

Turning to the powerplay. Out of Hull's 27 PP goals, Oates assisted on 9 of them. That is actually fewer than Zezel's 13 assists. The only other player with more than 5 PP assists was Jeff Brown with 7.

So, in total, Oates assisted on 23 of Hull's goals, Zezel on 21 whereas Momesso assisted on 19. To me, that hardly suggests that Oates was crucial for Hull's success that season.

1990-91 season

Turning to Hull's Hart-winning season. He scored an astounding 86 goals in 78 games while Oates had a fantastic 90 assists in only 60 games. Out of Hull's 86 goals, 57 was scored at even strength. Unfortunately, HSP only includes 56 of those goals so that is what I can analyze. Of those 56 goals Oates assisted on 21 of them. Since Oates was out for a large part of the season this is a fairly high number. Of the other players Brind'amour had 12 assists and Gino Cavallini 9.

Hull scored 29 goals on the powerplay and here is where the chemistry between Hull and Oates really can be seen. Oates assisted on 20 of those 29 goals. Excluding the games Oates was injured that means he assisted on 80% (20/25) of Hull's PP goals. Other notable players with a high number of assists were the two defensemen, Scott Stevens (10) and Jeff Brown (8).

Another way of analyzing this season is to look at the 19 games which Oates missed. During these games Hull scored 18 goals and added 9 assists. This is lower than his pace with Oates (59 games, 68 goals and 36 assists) but still very good. Overall, I would say this is the season where the chemistry between these two players were most important.

1991-92 season

For this season there are no game-by-game data available from the HSP. However, since Oates was traded midway through the season we can compare their play before and after the trade. Overall, Hull scored 70 goals in 73 games this season, while Oates had 79 assists in 80 games. Breaking it down before and after the trade we get:

 GP G A Pts  
Hull before 54 54 26 80 
Hull after 19 16 12 28 
Oates before 54 10 59 69 
Oates after 26 10 20 30 

Overall, the difference is not that big. Hull scored points at the same rate after the trade as before but with slightly less goals and slightly more assists. Oates on the other hand increased his goal scoring but decreased his assists production after the trade.

Overall Conclusion

While Hull and Oates certainly benefited from playing with each other I think Oates' impact on Hull's goal scoring has been a little overstated thanks to the drop in Hull's goal scoring after Oates left. Without Oates I think it's still likely Hull scores 60+ goals all three seasons and likely over 70 in at least one or two of them.

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Old
10-01-2012, 09:29 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Star hockey players played all played 60 minutes per game back then. Relative to their peers, Gretzky and Kurri were more dominant than Malone and Lalonde. Malone won the goals title by 8 goals in 1917-18, but only won the scoring title by 2 points over Cy Denneny.
I'd agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
They really played for 60 minutes? I knew that it was close to 50 minutes at some point, but was there really a point where players played the whole game?
Yes there were times when players played the whole game.

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Old
10-01-2012, 07:42 PM
  #134
Long Duk Dong
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On the same line? I don't know. Gretzky and Kurri played together for years, while Lemieux and Jagr were usually on separate lines. I'd probably pick the Oilers. On separate lines? The Pens duo.

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Old
10-02-2012, 04:09 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Hull was a good sniper, but he wasn't some kind of legendary talent in that area.
Well, that statement is a pure nonsense. If Brett Hull was legendary in something, it was his shooting. Definitely one of the best shots and most profilic goal scorers ever. A class above of Kurri in that category, who had a great shot as well.

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10-02-2012, 04:33 AM
  #136
TAnnala
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
.. Hull was a good sniper, but he wasn't some kind of legendary talent in that area.
This is nonsense.

That is exactly what i think of when i hear Brett Hull. A legendary shot and one of the most profilic goalscorers of all-time.

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