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Trades that are not as lopsided as some people may think or believe

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Old
10-02-2012, 09:27 AM
  #1
jumptheshark
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Trades that are not as lopsided as some people may think or believe

There are some trades that when you look back upon and at first glance they may not be as lopsides as the stats nay dictate

the first one the always jumps to mind is one trade, that at first glance looks very lopsided, until you ask the question "Is the game about stats or about winning"?

1980-Feb-18 Traded from Toronto Maple Leafs with Dave "Tiger" Williams to Vancouver Canucks for Bill Derlago and Rick Vaive

Some people view this trade in the same category as the Cam Neely trade

This is where the question I put forward comes in

While Vaive went on to score about 350 goals in a leaf uni and delergo had great years with the leafs

Leafs never got to the cup

However, the canucks, lead by tiger and a bunch of no names made it to the final at against the NYI in 81-82. While history paints tiger williams as a goon and other nasty stuff, Williams, when he had his head on straight was a very good third liner who could play two way hockey and pop in a few goals to help.

While looking at the stats of the trade, Leafs win in a walk and it is not close. Howwever, leafs never got to the cup final and the canucks did and the series against the flames and hawks were two of the most physical games I had every seen

and then you have this scene that is one of the greatest and funniest things I witnesses/


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10-02-2012, 09:47 AM
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TOGuy14
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This will get heat but I still don't think the Kessel trade is as bad as people make it out to be.

We still currently have the best player in the deal RIGHT NOW. Going forward I think Seguin and Kessel will be close in terms of value, the only real wildcard that could make it lopsided is Hamilton, but until he performs at the NHL level, I don't think this deal was a huge loss for us, yet.

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10-02-2012, 09:55 AM
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THe Rick Nash deal isn't bad at all.

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10-02-2012, 09:58 AM
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THe Rick Nash deal isn't bad at all.
Agreed, its better than most made it out to be IMO.

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10-02-2012, 10:02 AM
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The Rick Nash trade. Columbus gets some players that will show up to play every day.

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10-02-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
There are some trades that when you look back upon and at first glance they may not be as lopsides as the stats nay dictate

the first one the always jumps to mind is one trade, that at first glance looks very lopsided, until you ask the question "Is the game about stats or about winning"?

1980-Feb-18 Traded from Toronto Maple Leafs with Dave "Tiger" Williams to Vancouver Canucks for Bill Derlago and Rick Vaive

Some people view this trade in the same category as the Cam Neely trade

This is where the question I put forward comes in

While Vaive went on to score about 350 goals in a leaf uni and delergo had great years with the leafs

Leafs never got to the cup

However, the canucks, lead by tiger and a bunch of no names made it to the final at against the NYI in 81-82. While history paints tiger williams as a goon and other nasty stuff, Williams, when he had his head on straight was a very good third liner who could play two way hockey and pop in a few goals to help.

While looking at the stats of the trade, Leafs win in a walk and it is not close. Howwever, leafs never got to the cup final and the canucks did and the series against the flames and hawks were two of the most physical games I had every seen

and then you have this scene that is one of the greatest and funniest things I witnesses/

Would they have NOT made it as far with Vaive and Derlago?

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10-02-2012, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Would they have NOT made it as far with Vaive and Derlago?
Vaive and Derlago, while they were better players. IN that playoff run the nucks had they needed the toughness that Williams brought to the table. Those who did not see the series wont understand how much of a war the flames and hawks series were,

players like Williams, Nill Smyl and Fraser went through the wall in the playoffs

On paper it is a lopsided trade, but by the nucks getting to the final, it is not as lopsided as some people think who saw the series that year

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10-02-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
Vaive and Derlago, while they were better players. IN that playoff run the nucks had they needed the toughness that Williams brought to the table. Those who did not see the series wont understand how much of a war the flames and hawks series were,

players like Williams, Nill Smyl and Fraser went through the wall in the playoffs

On paper it is a lopsided trade, but by the nucks getting to the final, it is not as lopsided as some people think who saw the series that year
Doesn't answer the question (and so you know, I've been watching for 4 decades).

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10-02-2012, 10:18 AM
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The Rick Nash trade. Columbus gets some players that will show up to play every day.
True, but IMO there is really no upside to this deal. You get some solid players, but when you trade a player like Nash wouldn't you want to get at least one potential game-breaker back in return? IMO, the only way this trade looks good for CBJ is if Erixon turns into a very solid top-4, and if the season is completely locked out and that NYR 1st ends up turning into a top-5 or 10 pick.

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10-02-2012, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
This will get heat but I still don't think the Kessel trade is as bad as people make it out to be.

We still currently have the best player in the deal RIGHT NOW. Going forward I think Seguin and Kessel will be close in terms of value, the only real wildcard that could make it lopsided is Hamilton, but until he performs at the NHL level, I don't think this deal was a huge loss for us, yet.
Yah... No

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10-02-2012, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
This will get heat but I still don't think the Kessel trade is as bad as people make it out to be.

We still currently have the best player in the deal RIGHT NOW. Going forward I think Seguin and Kessel will be close in terms of value, the only real wildcard that could make it lopsided is Hamilton, but until he performs at the NHL level, I don't think this deal was a huge loss for us, yet.
Kessel; g and a wise here are the stats
99goals 102a for 201pts
Seguins 40 and 49 for 89pts and neither knight or hamilton have played a game in the nhl--best player now is Kessel, but in five years it one of those deals that come back to bite teams in the ass

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10-02-2012, 10:27 AM
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Heatley to SJ

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10-02-2012, 10:29 AM
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Heatley to SJ
I liked Michalek going to Ottawa, just took him a while to find his groove with the Sens.

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10-02-2012, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
True, but IMO there is really no upside to this deal. You get some solid players, but when you trade a player like Nash wouldn't you want to get at least one potential game-breaker back in return? IMO, the only way this trade looks good for CBJ is if Erixon turns into a very solid top-4, and if the season is completely locked out and that NYR 1st ends up turning into a top-5 or 10 pick.
I can respect that point of view. If Rick Nash starts to play some inspired hockey in NY for the rest of his time there than I'm definitely wrong. But, if he only shows up for a couple seasons and plays like he did in Columbus, the NY fans/media will eat him alive and run him outta town Larry Murphy style. I don't think the trade is as lopsided as most of us make it out to be, as a whole Columbus improved their overall depth, NY may have grabbed the last piece to the puzzle.

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10-02-2012, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
True, but IMO there is really no upside to this deal. You get some solid players, but when you trade a player like Nash wouldn't you want to get at least one potential game-breaker back in return? IMO, the only way this trade looks good for CBJ is if Erixon turns into a very solid top-4, and if the season is completely locked out and that NYR 1st ends up turning into a top-5 or 10 pick.
I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that that was pretty much impossible in that situation. Nash was forcing his way out and got to choose where he would go. The teams he wanted to head too weren't in a position to give up important roster pieces, because they are ready to compete now and were looking for something to put them over the top. The roster players they got are young and gritty (and who knows? Maybe they'll get a kind of Michael Peca out of it like how Buffalo did when they traded Mogilny?), and they got a decent prospect and a 1st rounder in what looks like a deep draft...Which could end up being higher than expected if there's never a season and the draft is just luck of the draw.

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10-02-2012, 12:09 PM
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I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that that was pretty much impossible in that situation. Nash was forcing his way out and got to choose where he would go. The teams he wanted to head too weren't in a position to give up important roster pieces, because they are ready to compete now and were looking for something to put them over the top. The roster players they got are young and gritty (and who knows? Maybe they'll get a kind of Michael Peca out of it like how Buffalo did when they traded Mogilny?), and they got a decent prospect and a 1st rounder in what looks like a deep draft...Which could end up being higher than expected if there's never a season and the draft is just luck of the draw.
Dubinsky is a long way off from becoming Michael Peca. And I get that the options were limited, but they didn't HAVE to trade him. If they didn't like the returns, they could have forced him to stay until he decided to expand the list of teams he would be willing to go to. After a certain point I'm sure he would have caved. That is assuming he wanted out of Columbus as badly as it seems he did.

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10-02-2012, 12:11 PM
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Gardiner + Lupul for Beauchemin.

I'm not a huge Ducks fan but from what I understanding, Beauchemin is doing pretty awesome.

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10-02-2012, 12:12 PM
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Dubinsky was an awful centerpiece for a player like Nash. He's not that good.

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10-02-2012, 12:24 PM
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I'll probably get grilled for this, but Gleason and Belanger for Johnson and Tverdovsky isn't looking like the complete ass **** that a lot of people were assuming it to be at the time it was made.

Assumption at the time was the Canes were giving up a defenseman that, while raw, had multiple Norris potential, dumping a salary of a guy that would be sent to the minors, and getting back a more refined product with a much lower upside who was still coming into his own, and a #3 center. On paper at the time that's a huge advantage for LA.

End result:
Gleason established himself as a solid but unspectacular defensive dman, along the mold of a #3 guy, and has been one of the few Canes players regularly meeting expectations on what's been an underachieving team the past few seasons. Belanger was a bust in Carolina due to attitude issues. Still, if Johnson's play in LA can be used as an indicator, he likely would not have positively affected the Canes season outcomes any moreso then Gleason did over the course of the trade.

Johnson, while still a regular with the National Team, never really came into his own in LA, especially defensively. After a few seasons of play in LA he was moved, along with a first, to Columbus for Jeff Carter who was a bust for the Jackets. That said, LA won the cup, partly due to this trade which added center depth and allowed Voynov to make his impact on the Kings, so there's really no negative for them in this as an end result.


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10-02-2012, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
Gardiner + Lupul for Beauchemin.

I'm not a huge Ducks fan but from what I understanding, Beauchemin is doing pretty awesome.
That deal was great for both sides, Lupul was never going to get an opportunity here. Randy didn't want to play him LW, and he would be behind Perry and Teemu on RW. He's not made for the 3rd line, then Gardiner yeah we gave him up but we had Schultz that was thought to be better than him. Just we didn't know Schultz would screw us.

Schultz screwing us, and how Murray didn't resign Beauchemin in the first place made this deal seem retarded. But just looking at the deal itself it wasn't that bad.

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10-02-2012, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
Kessel; g and a wise here are the stats
99goals 102a for 201pts
Seguins 40 and 49 for 89pts and neither knight or hamilton have played a game in the nhl--best player now is Kessel, but in five years it one of those deals that come back to bite teams in the ass
It's not gonna take 5 years for Burkie to want a mulligan on that one...and I like Kessel...Seguin himself will surpass Phil, and then the other two will be a boatload of gravy...The Bruins fans are gonna get alot of mileage out of this one...

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10-02-2012, 12:35 PM
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Dubinsky is a long way off from becoming Michael Peca. And I get that the options were limited, but they didn't HAVE to trade him. If they didn't like the returns, they could have forced him to stay until he decided to expand the list of teams he would be willing to go to. After a certain point I'm sure he would have caved. That is assuming he wanted out of Columbus as badly as it seems he did.
The thing is, CBJ has 3 firsts in a really good looking draft class. And they now have the basis of a team identity. They're going to be tougher to play against with the 3 forwards they acquired this summer (+their solid D core) than they were with just Nash. That group should be able to hold them in a lot more games even if they're still coming out on the wrong side of .500, and they should be able to pick up 3 really good prospects this summer. They certainly did better in their return for Nash than Buffalo did when Hasek forced his way out.

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10-02-2012, 01:42 PM
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Not as criticized anymore, but when Poile traded Franson+Lombardi for Lebda+4th, everyone (myself included) laughed at him. Now, Franson is struggling to stick on Toronto's 3rd pairing and Lombardi has little/no/negative value. Kind of a nothing for nothing deal. I'm not saying it was a great trade, but it wasn't as bad as the immediate reaction made it seem.

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10-02-2012, 01:52 PM
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Varlamov for a 1st and 2nd rounder

Among some other Avs' trades.. but this one really filled a hole in our lineup and Varly played some amazing hockey down the stretch. Obviously everyone wants to see some more consistency, but how often do you get a supremely talented goaltender with a nice playoff resume at the age of 22? Like Kari Lehtonen, Varly's skill should never be in question, only his durability. He played a full year last year and him along with Landeskog were the only reason the Avs were in the hunt post All-Star break.

The 1st rounder turned out to be Filip Forsberg, but no one saw him falling to 11, while one of the Caps biggest weaknesses last year were their goaltending issues. I like Holtby, but that is a very young and inexperienced team in net.

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10-02-2012, 01:55 PM
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I'll probably get grilled for this, but Gleason and Belanger for Johnson and Tverdovsky isn't looking like the complete ass **** that a lot of people were assuming it to be at the time it was made.
As someone who shredded the Canes when they made that deal (I was a huge Johnson believer), I have to agree.

I still doubt they got the absolute best value for JJ that was out there but, as you said, it doesn't seem like it's going to have any long-term ramifications for them.

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