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Dion Phaneuf

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Old
10-01-2012, 10:13 PM
  #51
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I don't think it makes sense to trade Phaneuf unless we are going for a young core of Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, Colborne, etc with Kessel and then tanking the season, so if we were to do that we would probably look for something like Dumba+1st+cap dump to deal him, as Dumba is looking like a smaller Phaneuf 2.0 and proven/prospect=the 1st in it.

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10-02-2012, 01:47 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Oh thank god. Dion Phaneuf, the 12th highest scoring defenseman last year is probably worth a 1st. Dion Phaneuf, the guy with the 2nd highest Corsi REL amongst Leafs defensemen despite playing against the highest competition is probably worth a 1st. Dion Phaneuf, who's salary makes up less than 10% of the total cap, is probably worth a first. Excellent.
I had no idea Phaneuf was so underrated around here.

Probably a 1st?
Ericsson + a 4th?

Woah.

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10-02-2012, 01:55 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that Toronto is going to miss Phaneuf much more than getting an equivalent centre or goaltender is going to help them.
I read the rest of your post, but my biggest concern is this statement, not because of an inherent flaw in logic or some minor grammar or spelling error, but simply because of the talking up players like Gunnarsson, Liles or heaven forbid Komi (in all seriousness, fingers crossed) filling in some of the roles and Gardiner and Rielly oozing potential, wouldn't a number one defender be an easier loss to swallow then keeping the top center spot or starting goalie position vacant?

I don't mean to nitpick but I'd say Gardiner or Rielly would be far, far more likely to become top pairing D in the near future then Kadri or Colborne become an equivalent center or Reimer becoming an equivalent starter.

And even short Franson for the year and Schenn, I'd say the stress being shouldered by the remaining D corps (including the proven, former and potential top pairing D) would be less then asking the top six and young goalies to accept these voids again.

Just one guys thoughts anyway.

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Old
10-02-2012, 02:47 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I read the rest of your post, but my biggest concern is this statement, not because of an inherent flaw in logic or some minor grammar or spelling error, but simply because of the talking up players like Gunnarsson, Liles or heaven forbid Komi (in all seriousness, fingers crossed) filling in some of the roles and Gardiner and Rielly oozing potential, wouldn't a number one defender be an easier loss to swallow then keeping the top center spot or starting goalie position vacant?
The #1 center and goalie spots are not vacant. They are just not ideal. The loss of Phaneuf would be greater than the difference between Bozak/Reimer and the players being offered.

While it is true that we are deeper on defence than anything else, that does not mean we can go around trading our best defencemen. It's like saying we have a bunch of wingers, so let's just trade Kessel. It would leave a major hole, especially considering he is our captain and major minute-eater/match-up guy on a primarily young defence.

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10-02-2012, 03:51 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hero View Post
The team is night and day with and with out Phaneuf.

No doubt about it he's our MVP.
In 2-3 years I see him being expendable.

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Old
10-02-2012, 03:55 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
I don't think it makes sense to trade Phaneuf unless we are going for a young core of Rielly, Gardiner,
Its them, plus, Blacker, Percy, Finn and Granberg.

This isn't now, but I do see him not being with the team in the future.
I don't hate him, and he's been good, but the numbers are catching
up to the D-corps.

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Old
10-02-2012, 07:15 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I read the rest of your post, but my biggest concern is this statement, not because of an inherent flaw in logic or some minor grammar or spelling error, but simply because of the talking up players like Gunnarsson, Liles or heaven forbid Komi (in all seriousness, fingers crossed) filling in some of the roles and Gardiner and Rielly oozing potential, wouldn't a number one defender be an easier loss to swallow then keeping the top center spot or starting goalie position vacant?

I don't mean to nitpick but I'd say Gardiner or Rielly would be far, far more likely to become top pairing D in the near future then Kadri or Colborne become an equivalent center or Reimer becoming an equivalent starter.

And even short Franson for the year and Schenn, I'd say the stress being shouldered by the remaining D corps (including the proven, former and potential top pairing D) would be less then asking the top six and young goalies to accept these voids again.

Just one guys thoughts anyway.
We're talking about the immediate.

Like you mentioned, if we lost Phaneuf, we're talking about our top 4 being comprised of Gunnarsson, Liles, Gardiner, and Komisarek. That's scary bad. We're already short a top 4 guy, the last thing we can do is be short another.

Having Bozak/Connolly as the team's top centre with Grabo as the #2 is worrisome, but not nearly as bad in the immediate when you compare it to the blueline. In goal, James Reimer / Ben Scrivens probably compares to that blueline, but James Reimer / veteran tandem guy isn't so bad.

Looking long term, Gardiner/Rielly are obviously safer bets to be top pairing defencemen then Kadri/Colborne are to be top line forwards... but that's not why you make a deal like this. Rielly isn't even NHL ready at this point, and who knows how hard Gardiner falls with a sophmore slump. We're at least a year or two away from talking about these guys in the context of top pair NHL defencemen. Right now, they're high potential projects, nothing more. Sure, we're also pretty deep with youth on the blueline, but most of those guys have relatively limited upside. The players we have to think about them potentially replacing are guys like Komisarek, Liles.

In terms of comparing them to James Reimer, I'm not so sure. Reimer's proven the ability to be a #1 goalie in this league for a 1/2 season. It's basically a little more than 1/3 of his sample size in the NHL. He looked perfectly capable of doing it before getting a concussion on game 6 last year. Sure, Gardiner has looked good (great) for stretches, but it was always in context of him being a rookie with no prior professional experience. Reimer in his rookie year was #1 goalie good, without needing that label.

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10-02-2012, 07:18 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I read the rest of your post, but my biggest concern is this statement, not because of an inherent flaw in logic or some minor grammar or spelling error, but simply because of the talking up players like Gunnarsson, Liles or heaven forbid Komi (in all seriousness, fingers crossed) filling in some of the roles and Gardiner and Rielly oozing potential, wouldn't a number one defender be an easier loss to swallow then keeping the top center spot or starting goalie position vacant?

I don't mean to nitpick but I'd say Gardiner or Rielly would be far, far more likely to become top pairing D in the near future then Kadri or Colborne become an equivalent center or Reimer becoming an equivalent starter.

And even short Franson for the year and Schenn, I'd say the stress being shouldered by the remaining D corps (including the proven, former and potential top pairing D) would be less then asking the top six and young goalies to accept these voids again.

Just one guys thoughts anyway.
So by your logic, we should trade Kessel becasue we have 5 capable top 6 wingers... Positional depth does not mean it is filled well. Phaneuf is the only player who can even come close to a top 15 D, Gunnarsson is a good #3 and Gardiner, as of right now, a solid #4, the rest are bottom pairing and i would not consider banking on potential as it hasnt boded to well for us in the past.

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10-02-2012, 09:37 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Gavy View Post
Wait, the Leafs would have to add to Dion to get Marleau? bahaha
Marleau's amazing, I think you'd have to add for sure.

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10-02-2012, 12:10 PM
  #60
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Wait, the Leafs would have to add to Dion to get Marleau? bahaha
I think you're the only one laughing at that notion

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10-02-2012, 12:25 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SpezDispenser View Post
Marleau's amazing, I think you'd have to add for sure.
He is? Biggest waste of talent in the league as far as I am concerned. He has the skills of Sidney Crosby with the heart of Alexander Semin.

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10-02-2012, 02:16 PM
  #62
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Something is off in Dion's skating, especially when he is pivoting from backwards to forward skating. I dont think his hip has fully recovered, maybe this year off could do him some good.

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10-02-2012, 02:28 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Reimer's proven the ability to be a #1 goalie in this league for a 1/2 season. It's basically a little more than 1/3 of his sample size in the NHL.
It is over half of his sample size.

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10-02-2012, 03:04 PM
  #64
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I really do wish I could find a fair offer from the Habs for Phaneuf. I thought we should have lowballed Calgary in the first place. Man, the Leafs cleaned up in that deal. Phaneuf's value is going to be higher to Leafs fans than to a lot of other teams' fans simply due to what the Leafs gave up for him. It is unfair, and is why Leafs fans will justifiably NOT trade him.

Kaberle, Eller, and the Habs' 2013 1st round pick? You get a PMD you know, a developing young center with some size and 2nd line potential, and a 1st in a deep draft.

Sigh, I will probably get lambasted by both sides...

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10-02-2012, 03:05 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
He is? Biggest waste of talent in the league as far as I am concerned. He has the skills of Sidney Crosby with the heart of Alexander Semin.
30+ goals in 7 of his last 8 seasons. Waste of talent? No.

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10-02-2012, 03:14 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I really do wish I could find a fair offer from the Habs for Phaneuf. I thought we should have lowballed Calgary in the first place. Man, the Leafs cleaned up in that deal. Phaneuf's value is going to be higher to Leafs fans than to a lot of other teams' fans simply due to what the Leafs gave up for him. It is unfair, and is why Leafs fans will justifiably NOT trade him.

Kaberle, Eller, and the Habs' 2013 1st round pick? You get a PMD you know, a developing young center with some size and 2nd line potential, and a 1st in a deep draft.

Sigh, I will probably get lambasted by both sides...
Kaberle is never coming back and has 3rd or 4th value, Eller isn't much, with you guys playing him 3rd/4th makes him look like a scrub which makes his value=a near bust prospect that only had 2nd line potential, and 1st is valuable but don't see you guys finishing bottom 5 again so.. nope. Would probably trade him if Subban or Pleky+1st were coming back.

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10-02-2012, 03:15 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
He is? Biggest waste of talent in the league as far as I am concerned. He has the skills of Sidney Crosby with the heart of Alexander Semin.
And he'd still be the best forward on the Leafs.

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10-02-2012, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
30+ goals in 7 of his last 8 seasons. Waste of talent? No.
He was more saying he could do so much better if he had some heart in him, whether it's him or the San Jose atmosphere.

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10-02-2012, 03:44 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
He was more saying he could do so much better if he had some heart in him, whether it's him or the San Jose atmosphere.
Hmmm...Phil Kessel anyone? All-world talent, little to no heart? Yet Leaf fans still worship the ice he skates on...why is it any different for Marleau? Because he's a Shark & not a Leaf?

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10-02-2012, 04:26 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Kaberle is never coming back and has 3rd or 4th value, Eller isn't much, with you guys playing him 3rd/4th makes him look like a scrub which makes his value=a near bust prospect that only had 2nd line potential, and 1st is valuable but don't see you guys finishing bottom 5 again so.. nope. Would probably trade him if Subban or Pleky+1st were coming back.
Subban is a "no". Plekanec for Phaneuf has some legs, but not with a 1st included from our end. If you think Eller is a scrub who looks like a bust and that his value is around that, you don't know a lot about hockey and how to develop a player. Eller simply gets better and better and has not been given quality linemates or top 6 duties or PP time of any value. He is already excellent defensively. I would love to see him move into the top 6 if we moved Plekanec for Phaneuf. Gionta, Eller and Bourque would be very fun to watch.

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10-02-2012, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
...you guys playing him 3rd/4th makes him look like a scrub...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Subban is a "no". Plekanec for Phaneuf has some legs, but not with a 1st included from our end. If you think Eller is a scrub who looks like a bust and that his value is around that, you don't know a lot about hockey and how to develop a player. Eller simply gets better and better and has not been given quality linemates or top 6 duties or PP time of any value. He is already excellent defensively. I would love to see him move into the top 6 if we moved Plekanec for Phaneuf. Gionta, Eller and Bourque would be very fun to watch.
A 2A center doesn't get a 1B d-man. Unless the 1st comes with. Subban is the face with Price of MTL so I see why your saying no, but if you were actual contenders, most would take Phaneuf over Subban to play today without considering potential. And my proposal was to get us to be willing to trade him, not face value. Look at my quote and you'll see that how you guys are developing Eller right now make him look like a scrub, never saying that I thought he was one.

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10-02-2012, 04:38 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Hmmm...Phil Kessel anyone? All-world talent, little to no heart? Yet Leaf fans still worship the ice he skates on...why is it any different for Marleau? Because he's a Shark & not a Leaf?
He doesn't have huge heat, but he does have some. And Phil Kessel has done better if you count it by age (18-18, 19-19, etc) yet Marleau has more skill, but Kessel is a better pure scorer.

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10-02-2012, 04:42 PM
  #73
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And he'd still be the best forward on the Leafs.
I don't think Marleau would be able to produce the way he would without Thornton giving him perfect passes all the time. It's pretty easy for me to say that Kessel is a better forward then Marleau.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Hmmm...Phil Kessel anyone? All-world talent, little to no heart? Yet Leaf fans still worship the ice he skates on...why is it any different for Marleau? Because he's a Shark & not a Leaf?
Kessel is a passionate player, he just shies away from contact. Kessel plays for his team and plays with emotion, I don't know where you got this "no heart" idea.

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10-02-2012, 04:57 PM
  #74
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I don't think Marleau would be able to produce the way he would without Thornton giving him perfect passes all the time. It's pretty easy for me to say that Kessel is a better forward then Marleau.



Kessel is a passionate player, he just shies away from contact. Kessel plays for his team and plays with emotion, I don't know where you got this "no heart" idea.
He's not a better forward, he's a better scorer. I'll agree that he can create chances better than Marleau, but even that's debatable. Other than their skating, which I think is pretty even, Marleau is superior in every other facet of the game, playmaking(which I think is an area Kessel is very underrated in), defensive play, boardwork etc.

Also he was a stud for me in NHL 11.

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Old
10-02-2012, 05:00 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Kaberle is never coming back and has 3rd or 4th value, Eller isn't much, with you guys playing him 3rd/4th makes him look like a scrub which makes his value=a near bust prospect that only had 2nd line potential, and 1st is valuable but don't see you guys finishing bottom 5 again so.. nope. Would probably trade him if Subban or Pleky+1st were coming back.
Subban has more value than Phaneuf so forget about him + a first.

A Plekanec for Phaneuf could be worked on but adding a 1st on our side or your side is an absolute turn off for both.

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