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2012 CBA Discussion II (Lockout Talk)

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10-02-2012, 01:53 PM
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2012 CBA Discussion II (Lockout Talk)

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Part I - http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1219919

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10-02-2012, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aw hell I forget who said it at the end of the last thread
The hotel room issue (and even the trainer issue) really reduced my hope for hockey this season. The owners are saying rising operating costs are causing most of the NHL to not be profitable and the NHLPA introduces more costs?
As a negotiator Fehr should be compromising these smaller costs to then have leverage with the bigger issues. This guy is out to lunch.

Part I - http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1219919
I have to agree on this one. If they are quite literally bickering over hotels (and I assume there are even issues more petty in nature) and are that stubborn that nobody will give in on those topics...the overall outlook is really really grim.

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10-02-2012, 03:44 PM
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I'm going out on a limb an saying training camp starts on December 15th

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10-02-2012, 04:08 PM
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Thank you Ferrence....

I hope Recchi really did punch him in the mouth.

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10-02-2012, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Thank you Ferrence....

I hope Recchi really did punch him in the mouth.
What does Ference have to do with this? He's not even a player rep.

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10-02-2012, 05:51 PM
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What does Ference have to do with this? He's not even a player rep.
I'm guessing Morris is referring to when he was the player rep for the Bruins and was part of ousting Paul Kelly.

Just a guess though.

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10-02-2012, 05:54 PM
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I'm guessing Morris is referring to when he was the player rep for the Bruins and was part of ousting Paul Kelly.

Just a guess though.
And if Kelly was head of the NHLPA, everything would be kumbaya?

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10-02-2012, 06:18 PM
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I have to agree on this one. If they are quite literally bickering over hotels (and I assume there are even issues more petty in nature) and are that stubborn that nobody will give in on those topics...the overall outlook is really really grim.
That's negotiation 101 though- come up with as many grievances and demands as possible then only give in on them if/when the other side concedes something as well. The more you come in with the more "concessions" you can make to get a deal done and the better protected your real goals will be.

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10-02-2012, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chuckdobbins View Post
I have to agree on this one. If they are quite literally bickering over hotels (and I assume there are even issues more petty in nature) and are that stubborn that nobody will give in on those topics...the overall outlook is really really grim.
40 games times 30 people or more that travel. So add this up per year. Flying, rooms, meals and buses to arenas.

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10-02-2012, 07:16 PM
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It seems like neither side wants to really barter with each other, and its sad. Had months to iron out this and didn't do anything.

So beyond fustrating. Both sides need to shut up and make a deal.

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10-02-2012, 07:43 PM
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so no deal soon

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10-02-2012, 07:53 PM
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Yeah, it's frustrating. I will miss NHL hockey. But, there is a lot of other hockey to be watched including the P Bruins, local college teams (including BC and Providence which has a #1 pick as their 1st line center), the KHL and junior hockey. True hockey fans, core hockey fans that make up the base of nearly 75% of all HRR will move on. That is an estimate and may be way off, but I am guessing it is close to accurate. Most hockey fans, like myself, will watch hockey this year whether the NHL and NHLPA agree to something. Yes, it will be disappointing not to watch NHL hockey, but we will survive. Just, in the long run, make a smart agreement that will maintain competitive balance and make the NHL as a whole a great sport..albeit a niche sport and we will come back, eventually.

Full disclosure: I am not a season ticket holder. They may have a different take. Or not?

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10-02-2012, 07:59 PM
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Urge to kill, rising, rising, rising...

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10-02-2012, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by nifty988 View Post
Yeah, it's frustrating. I will miss NHL hockey. But, there is a lot of other hockey to be watched including the P Bruins, local college teams (including BC and Providence which has a #1 pick as their 1st line center), the KHL and junior hockey. True hockey fans, core hockey fans that make up the base of nearly 75% of all HRR will move on. That is an estimate and may be way off, but I am guessing it is close to accurate. Most hockey fans, like myself, will watch hockey this year whether the NHL and NHLPA agree to something. Yes, it will be disappointing not to watch NHL hockey, but we will survive. Just, in the long run, make a smart agreement that will maintain competitive balance and make the NHL as a whole a great sport..albeit a niche sport and we will come back, eventually.

Full disclosure: I am not a season ticket holder. They may have a different take. Or not?
Couldn't disagree with this more.

The majority of NHL fans are NHL fans. I would even go more narrow and say that the majority of NHL fans are fans of their specific team, and that's it.

The majority of people who fill arenas night in and night out aren't going to gobble up any nugget of hockey they can get. They will spend their entertainment dollars and time in areas outside of hockey. The AHL and NCAA will absolutely see an uptick in interest/attendance as long as the lockout is on, but not via 75% of the NHL fan base.

I'd say in terms of accuracy, your numbers are likely closer to being backwards. 25% of NHL fans will seek out AHL, NCAA, and streams of games in Europe or junior games.

As for me, I consider myself to be a "true hockey fan"...but I'm going to spending my newfound free time elsewhere. I'll still watch NCAA games and follow the AHL loosely, but the lockout likely won't increase my consumption of those products.

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10-02-2012, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
And if Kelly was head of the NHLPA, everything would be kumbaya?
When they hired Fehr they wanted a labor war.

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10-02-2012, 08:31 PM
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40 games times 30 people or more that travel. So add this up per year. Flying, rooms, meals and buses to arenas.
Not even counting the companionship that must be provided.

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10-02-2012, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
When they hired Fehr they wanted a labor war.
Ya, it's a pretty well known fact that Paul Kelly has a better working relationship with the NHL than Fehr does.

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10-02-2012, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
When they hired Fehr they wanted a labor war.
They didn't want a war. They just didn't want to be pushed around again by the union-buster.

When they conceded to the 24% rollback in 2004, they proposed that INSTEAD of a salary cap. Not in addition to it. Their leadership had been lacking, so they required someone with experience and a history of being steadfast.

Fehr was a dangerous choice, to be sure. But with that knowledge, the NHL proposed an insult to begin negotiations... They should have known better than to assume that this was going to be the same NHLPA that they managed to push around eight years ago.

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10-02-2012, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
They didn't want a war. They just didn't want to be pushed around again by the union-buster.

When they conceded to the 24% rollback in 2004, they proposed that INSTEAD of a salary cap. Not in addition to it. Their leadership had been lacking, so they required someone with experience and a history of being steadfast.

Fehr was a dangerous choice, to be sure. But with that knowledge, the NHL proposed an insult to begin negotiations... They should have known better than to assume that this was going to be the same NHLPA that they managed to push around eight years ago.
Then why the refusal to negotiate before the season ended? The NHL wanted to start this process much earlier.

I don't blame the NHL to not want to start the season with an expired CBA, who knows what fancy lawyering Ferh would have come up with.

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10-02-2012, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Then why the refusal to negotiate before the season ended? The NHL wanted to start this process much earlier.

I don't blame the NHL to not want to start the season with an expired CBA, who knows what fancy lawyering Ferh would have come up with.
I'm saying that the reason there's a lockout right now, is NOT because either side desired it. It's beneficial to no one at all. To think that either Fehr or Bettman (or the people they represent) went into negotiations with the goal of screwing themselves out of money, is foolish.

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10-02-2012, 09:22 PM
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Couldn't disagree with this more.

The majority of NHL fans are NHL fans. I would even go more narrow and say that the majority of NHL fans are fans of their specific team, and that's it.

The majority of people who fill arenas night in and night out aren't going to gobble up any nugget of hockey they can get. They will spend their entertainment dollars and time in areas outside of hockey. The AHL and NCAA will absolutely see an uptick in interest/attendance as long as the lockout is on, but not via 75% of the NHL fan base.

I'd say in terms of accuracy, your numbers are likely closer to being backwards. 25% of NHL fans will seek out AHL, NCAA, and streams of games in Europe or junior games.

As for me, I consider myself to be a "true hockey fan"...but I'm going to spending my newfound free time elsewhere. I'll still watch NCAA games and follow the AHL loosely, but the lockout likely won't increase my consumption of those products.
I would watch Providence Bruins games if they were televised live. And I'll watch the Bruins Classics from time to time. I have no interest in Euro hockey, or even college hockey to be honest. I might watch BC/BU but even then I'm usually not into it.

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10-02-2012, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
They didn't want a war. They just didn't want to be pushed around again by the union-buster.

When they conceded to the 24% rollback in 2004, they proposed that INSTEAD of a salary cap. Not in addition to it. Their leadership had been lacking, so they required someone with experience and a history of being steadfast.

Fehr was a dangerous choice, to be sure. But with that knowledge, the NHL proposed an insult to begin negotiations... They should have known better than to assume that this was going to be the same NHLPA that they managed to push around eight years ago.
Bob Goodenow negotiated that deal for the 8 years ago, Kelly replaced him after the cap came in. Goddenow was a hard liner good ole union guy who said that the last one could take up to 2 years.

I guess, we're getting that other year he talked about last time around.

Paul Kelly seemed more of a company guy, but never struck me as someone who was dishonest, or would do a poor job for his membership. But more of a guy with a realistic head on his shoulders and likely wouldn't lead his men to slaughter.

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10-02-2012, 10:06 PM
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Bob Goodenow negotiated that deal for the 8 years ago, Kelly replaced him after the cap came in. Goddenow was a hard liner good ole union guy who said that the last one could take up to 2 years.

I guess, we're getting that other year he talked about last time around.

Paul Kelly seemed more of a company guy, but never struck me as someone who was dishonest, or would do a poor job for his membership. But more of a guy with a realistic head on his shoulders and likely wouldn't lead his men to slaughter.
Kelly seemed good. I won't say anything bad him. It was the kind of discourse between the two sides that as a fan, I would have preferred to see during THESE negotiations (and any in the future).

But I don't blame the PA for being hesitant. I don't blame them for wanting strong leadership and vying for a representative who they would be assured would go into talks with the NHL and be 100% on their side.

Gary Bettman has done a lot of good for this league. I actually LIKE him. But he's a union bully. Bringing Fehr on board was a message saying that the NHLPA was not going to stand for being bullied again.

I don't like the situation and I don't like Fehr. But I understand the decision.

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10-02-2012, 10:19 PM
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Kelly seemed good. I won't say anything bad him. It was the kind of discourse between the two sides that as a fan, I would have preferred to see during THESE negotiations (and any in the future).

But I don't blame the PA for being hesitant. I don't blame them for wanting strong leadership and vying for a representative who they would be assured would go into talks with the NHL and be 100% on their side.

Gary Bettman has done a lot of good for this league. I actually LIKE him. But he's a union bully. Bringing Fehr on board was a message saying that the NHLPA was not going to stand for being bullied again.

I don't like the situation and I don't like Fehr. But I understand the decision.
I agree. well not with the bettman part. but with the reasons behind hiring fehr. The nhlpa hired him not to start a war. but to have the firepower to stand up for themselves if they needed to. which they absolutely did based on the nhl's initial offer.




But I am as pesimistic as ever regarding about the "negotiations" makes me sick. I can't stand anyone involved. its pathetic... I've all but given up on this season. If it starts post thanksgiving it'll be ruined anyway and I'll sit in my seat pissed off the whole time.

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10-02-2012, 10:24 PM
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I don't get the hurt feelings by the NHL's 1st offer...

I hope everyone does not take the 1st offer they are given in a job interview or walk out the door because it is so insultingly low.

Its a negotiation, these things take time, and SHOULD have started earlier. The fact they are still working at the definition of HRR is maddening.


One thing I find interesting is the absence of Bettman and Fehr over the past week. I wonder what is going on that we don't know about.

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