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Nazem Kadri reports to camp in 'Unacceptable' shape

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Old
10-02-2012, 06:51 PM
  #351
VeddarRants
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
For real, 7th overall picks for the 2 prior decades

89 - Doug Zmolek
90 - Darryl Sydor
91 - Alek Stojanov
92 - Ryan Sittler
93 - Jason Arnott
94 - Jamie Storr
95 - Shane Doan
96 - Erik Ramaussen
97 - Paul Mara
98 - Manny Malholtra
99 - Kris Beech
00 - Lars Jonsson
01 - Mike Komisarek
02- Lupul (took a decade to become a star)
03 - Ryan Suter (exception)
04- Rostislav Olesz
05 - Jack Skille
06 - Kyle Okposo
07 - Jakub Voracek
08 - Colin Wilson
09 - Nazem Kadri

Pretty underwhelming list, less then a handful of noteworthy players
I don't know what you're talking about...there's quite a few good names on that list. In fact, there's more NHL quality players on that list than not.

Kadri not reporting in shape is just part of the iceberg in people's bevel that he's a bust. Most top picks at his age start to show that they belong in the NHL...the ones that don't usually end up being busts.

Question to Leaf fans: how long will it have to take for Kadri to be an official bust? Being a top 10 pick and heralded by a lot of Leaf fans to be a sure-fire top 6 player, it's looking more and more like he won't live up to promise.

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10-02-2012, 06:53 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
You can't gain strength (lean mass) without extra baggage (fat gain). And an offseason isn't long enough to be able to gain significant muscle then turn around and burn off extra fat.
If this was Opposite Day, I would agree. Since it's not, I'm literally laughing my ass off.

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10-02-2012, 06:56 PM
  #353
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What a mess, now Cherry is sticking up for the kid, like he's done in the past.

Really? If this kid was from Canada and played outside of Toronto, Cherry would be tearing him up for being the slacker that he is.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=406587

Though it shouldn't be a surprise, "work ethic" was a huge concern when he was drafted, very much the same as Angelo Esposito and Kadri is turning out the same way.

That said, if a prospect fails to develop in your system, you don't tear him up for it publicly, some don't make it. The Rangers sure didn't tear up Jessiman. But that just seems to be the TML style lately, to tear guys up publicly.

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10-02-2012, 07:10 PM
  #354
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Really? If this kid was from Canada and played outside of Toronto, Cherry would be tearing him up for being the slacker that he is.
What would Cherry say if he were from an non-Toronto place like say perhaps from Russia

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10-02-2012, 07:24 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Bolded are(were) all NHL regulars...Kadri is lagging behind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
I don't know what you're talking about...there's quite a few good names on that list. In fact, there's more NHL quality players on that list than not.

Kadri not reporting in shape is just part of the iceberg in people's bevel that he's a bust. Most top picks at his age start to show that they belong in the NHL...the ones that don't usually end up being busts.

Question to Leaf fans: how long will it have to take for Kadri to be an official bust? Being a top 10 pick and heralded by a lot of Leaf fans to be a sure-fire top 6 player, it's looking more and more like he won't live up to promise.
Thee "regular" NHLers were mostly fringe at best, those who werent were mostly busts or 3rd liners. There are 4 or 5 quality NHL players on that list, and according to some here, a 3rd line Kadri is considered a bust, or close enough too it. That was the point i was getting at.

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10-02-2012, 07:40 PM
  #356
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Kadri is a whinny little b****, Ive been saying ever since he got drafted that he wasn't going to be an nhler and so far he has done nothing to prove me wrong. Just from watching him in the WJC and seeing him in interviews I could tell he would not cut it as a pro, he played a lazy, selfish game and had a terrible attitude.
What exactly is Kadri *****ing/whiniing about? If anything he handled himself quite nicely without backlashing or calling the coach out after being publically humiliated and left out to dry.

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Originally Posted by kitchen44 View Post
MPS, Johansson, Kruger, Tatar, clifford, Josefson etc. and those are just the forwards I would take over him.
MPS is a wash with Kadri atm, a full year (posting a similar PPG ) in the NHL yet was worse production wise when sent down to the AHL. Johansson ill give you, Kruger has actually produced worse while being given a better oppourtunity, Tatar has done absolutely nothing at this point to warrant being ahead of Kadri, Clifford has 7 more points in 106 more games, and Jofeson has produced the same in 18 more games. None of these players are far and above greater...

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10-02-2012, 07:48 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Thee "regular" NHLers were mostly fringe at best, those who werent were mostly busts or 3rd liners. There are 4 or 5 quality NHL players on that list, and according to some here, a 3rd line Kadri is considered a bust, or close enough too it. That was the point i was getting at.
Varying degrees of good to really good

90 - Darryl Sydor
93 - Jason Arnott
95 - Shane Doan
03 - Ryan Suter
02- Lupul

Young, getting better, and in reach of their potential to join the first bunch of names.

06 - Kyle Okposo
07 - Jakub Voracek
08 - Colin Wilson

Serviceable regs who didn't live up to their potential, but still carved a decent niche for themselves in the league.

97 - Paul Mara
98 - Manny Malholtra
01 - Mike Komisarek
04- Rostislav Olesz
05 - Jack Skille

If you're shooting for Kadri to make the last bunch of names, that's a 180 of what Leaf fans expected from him. If he can't crack Toronto's roster full-time at some point in the next two years, I think it would be safe to call Kadri a bust. Right now, he's leaning more and more to being a bust than living up to his potential as a top 10 pick.

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10-02-2012, 07:49 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
If this was Opposite Day, I would agree. Since it's not, I'm literally laughing my ass off.
What's so funny about me stating that muscle gain is accompanied by fat gain?



Quote:
Originally Posted by MISC View Post
So, he has time to bulk up and now is about to go on a cut?

ITT: People do not understand ho to gain muscle.
ITT: People not aware (srs).

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10-02-2012, 07:53 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
What exactly is Kadri *****ing/whiniing about? If anything he handled himself quite nicely without backlashing or calling the coach out after being publically humiliated and left out to dry.



MPS is a wash with Kadri atm, a full year (posting a similar PPG ) in the NHL yet was worse production wise when sent down to the AHL. Johansson ill give you, Kruger has actually produced worse while being given a better oppourtunity, Tatar has done absolutely nothing at this point to warrant being ahead of Kadri, Clifford has 7 more points in 106 more games, and Jofeson has produced the same in 18 more games. None of these players are far and above greater...
Josefson and Kruger is clearly better than Kadri at this point. Production is only one part of the game. The fact that Kruger can crack the roster of a contending team like Chicago and play well says a lot... while on the flip side, the fact that Kadri hasn't been able to crack the roster of a lottery team like the Leafs also says a lot.

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10-02-2012, 07:53 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Varying degrees of good to really good

90 - Darryl Sydor
93 - Jason Arnott
95 - Shane Doan
03 - Ryan Suter
02- Lupul

Young, getting better, and in reach of their potential to join the first bunch of names.

06 - Kyle Okposo
07 - Jakub Voracek
08 - Colin Wilson

Serviceable regs who didn't live up to their potential, but still carved a decent niche for themselves in the league.

97 - Paul Mara
98 - Manny Malholtra
01 - Mike Komisarek
04- Rostislav Olesz
05 - Jack Skille

If you're shooting for Kadri to make the last bunch of names, that's a 180 of what Leaf fans expected from him. If he can't crack Toronto's roster full-time at some point in the next two years, I think it would be safe to call Kadri a bust. Right now, he's leaning more and more to being a bust than living up to his potential as a top 10 pick.
Seems fairy foolish if one actually looks at history versus performance to date.

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10-02-2012, 07:55 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Josefson and Kruger is clearly better than Kadri at this point. Production is only one part of the game. The fact that Kruger can crack the roster of a contending team like Chicago and play well says a lot... while on the flip side, the fact that Kadri hasn't been able to crack the roster of a lottery team like the Leafs also says a lot.
It could say they are developing him the way teams like Detroit and Philly tend to develop their forwards. Heaven forbid.

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10-02-2012, 07:57 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
What's so funny about me stating that muscle gain is accompanied by fat gain?
Because it's not true. Athletes do it all the time. Regular joes have a harder time accomplishing the goal, but if you're a pro athlete under a strict training regimen watched and helped by other professionals, gaining muscle without fat gain is a reality.

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10-02-2012, 08:00 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Because it's not true. Athletes do it all the time. Regular joes have a harder time accomplishing the goal, but if you're a pro athlete under a strict training regimen watched and helped by other professionals, gaining muscle without fat gain is a reality.
No it is not. Calorie partitioning is embedded in human genetics with little being controlled by training and nutrition.

EDIT: Here's a nice little write up on calorie partitioning from Lyle McDonald, one of the best fitness researchers there is.

Quote:
"....At a very fundamental level, the problem that natural bodybuilders and athletes have is one of partitioning; that is, where the calories go when you eat more of them or come from when you eat less of them. In an ideal universe, every calorie you ate would go to muscle tissue, with none going into fat cells; you’d gain 100% muscle and no fat. In that same ideal universe, every calorie used during dieting would come from fat stores; you’d lose 100% fat and no muscle. Unfortunately, we don’t live in an ideal universe.
As I mentioned early in this book, some hapless individuals will lose as much as one pound of muscle for every 2-3 pounds of fat that they lose when they diet. Typically, those same individuals will put on about the same amount of fat and muscle when they overfeed. Thus is the balance of the universe maintained. More genetically advantaged individuals tend to put more calories into muscle (meaning less into fat) when they overeat and pull more calories out of fat cells (and less out of muscle) when they diet....

..."When talking about partitioning of calories, researchers refer to something called the P-ratio. Essentially, it represents the amount of protein that is either gained (or lost) during over (or under) feeding. So a low P-ratio when dieting would mean you used very little protein and a lot of fat. A high P-ratio would mean that you used a lot of protein and very little fat. It looks like, for the most part, P-ratio is more or less the same for a given individual; as I mentioned above, they will gain about same amount of muscle when they overfeed as they lose when they diet. This is yet another example of the body’s attempts to maintain itself at a ‘normal’ level.
So what controls P-ratio. As depressing as this is, the majority of of the P-ratio is out of our control; it’s mostly genetic. We can control, maybe 15-20% of it with how we eat or train. Supraphysiological amounts of certain compounds (supplements) and, of course, drugs, can also affect the P-ratio.
Source: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...ng-part-1.html


Last edited by jmart21: 10-02-2012 at 08:08 PM.
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10-02-2012, 08:01 PM
  #364
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It could say they are developing him the way teams like Detroit and Philly tend to develop their forwards. Heaven forbid.
You mean two teams that are playoff contenders as opposed to a lottery contending team? You mean like how Philly has developed JVR and Couture? There's no good excuse for Kadri not being able to crack the roster of a weak team. He simply isn't ready and there's growing concern if when he is, if he'll turn into the top 6 guy he was billed to be.

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10-02-2012, 08:02 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Because it's not true. Athletes do it all the time. Regular joes have a harder time accomplishing the goal, but if you're a pro athlete under a strict training regimen watched and helped by other professionals, gaining muscle without fat gain is a reality.
Maybe he was just stuffing himself full of steak and potatoes and then forget to finish part 2 of the 2 stage plan and actually work out?

Or maybe he was just too full and couldn't work out long enough?

I don't see how this is Kadri's fault

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10-02-2012, 08:03 PM
  #366
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Stop picking on poor Kadbury!

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10-02-2012, 08:05 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
No it is not. Calorie partitioning is embedded in human genetics with little being controlled by training and nutrition.
No matter how you slice it, he was singled out, meaning all of the other players didn't have any issues coming to camp in better shape than Kadri.

IMO, he can still be a good offensive NHLer, but it's definitely something that leads people to question his work ethic and dedication.

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10-02-2012, 08:06 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
The kid was peppered for not being big enough. So he trained with Gary "Guru" Roberts to get bigger. It's shouldn't surprise anyone that his body fat has increased. You can't gain strength (lean mass) without extra baggage (fat gain). And an offseason isn't long enough to be able to gain significant muscle then turn around and burn off extra fat.
Didn't his body fat actually decrease from the year before?

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10-02-2012, 08:07 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
No it is not. Calorie partitioning is embedded in human genetics with little being controlled by training and nutrition.
You need to do more research on the topic or hang out with more pro athletes.

Here, I'll help you out:

http://muscleevo.net/lose-fat-gain-muscle/

http://zenhabits.net/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat/

Blake Wheeler, former Bruin, gained muscle and lost fat after his first year as a Bruin. One of many examples of athletes who are dedicated enough, can do this. Kadri basically admitted he is not, or " still learning ".

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10-02-2012, 08:19 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
You need to do more research on the topic or hang out with more pro athletes.

Here, I'll help you out:

http://muscleevo.net/lose-fat-gain-muscle/

http://zenhabits.net/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat/

Blake Wheeler, former Bruin, gained muscle and lost fat after his first year as a Bruin. One of many examples of athletes who are dedicated enough, can do this. Kadri basically admitted he is not, or " still learning ".
-Gaining anything (muscle or fat) requires caloric surplus.
-Losing anything (muscle or fat) requires caloric deficit.
These laws follow the laws of thermodynamics. Yes, there are exceptions (new lifters are the biggest one, it's actually quite common to see this in first timers for a short period) which include controlled lab studies.

But anyone with any knowledge of nutrition and fitness knows that it's certainly not something to count on. Gary Roberts of all people.

Quote:
The bottom line is that you can burn fat and build muscle at the same time.
But unless youíre an overweight beginner, returning to exercise after a layoff, very genetically gifted or using drugs, youíre not going to be able to do both at anything approaching the same rate.
In other words, itís far more realistic to lose 10 pounds of fat while gaining a pound or two of muscle. Losing 10 pounds of fat at the same time as replacing it with 10 pounds of muscle is just not a realistic goal for most people.
This article agrees with what I am saying. However the numbers thrown out are extremely questionable and the lack of mentioning the timeframe for these goals is the likely culprit.

I'm not going to comment on the 2nd article because it's nothing but a plug for the author's "8 week program to build muscle and lose fat"

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10-02-2012, 08:23 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
No matter how you slice it, he was singled out, meaning all of the other players didn't have any issues coming to camp in better shape than Kadri.

IMO, he can still be a good offensive NHLer, but it's definitely something that leads people to question his work ethic and dedication.
I'm not trying to get into a finger pointing match. I just wanted to point out that if he gained any strength, like everyone ripped him about last year, then it's shouldn't be a surprise that his bodyfat has gone up.


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10-02-2012, 08:26 PM
  #372
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You mean two teams that are playoff contenders as opposed to a lottery contending team? You mean like how Philly has developed JVR and Couture? There's no good excuse for Kadri not being able to crack the roster of a weak team. He simply isn't ready and there's growing concern if when he is, if he'll turn into the top 6 guy he was billed to be.
What difference does it make whether your team is contending? Developing players at an appropriate rate has nothing to do with the nature of the parent club (at least it shouldn't).

JVR - Became full timer in his 3rd year post draft (and was 2nd overall).
Giroux - Became full timer in 4th year post draft
Richards - Became full timer in 3rd year post draft
Carter - Became full timer in 3rd year post draft
Schenn - Possibly full timer in 3rd year post draft
Couture - Became full timer 4th year post draft

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10-02-2012, 08:27 PM
  #373
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Cherry gives his opinion @CoachsCornerCBC

"I have never in my life seen a kid treated like Nazem Kadri by the Leafs. It started in his first training camp where he led the team in scoring but was blasted for his defensive faults. They don't blast Kulemin who scored 7 goals. They give him 5 million dollars. Now the Marlie coach comes out and rips Kadri in the newspaper saying he doesn't eat properly. Imagine headlines saying he's chubby and fatso. If anyone wants to get a blue print on how to destroy someone, just follow the Toronto Maple Leafs"

boom.
What Cherry says is opposite logic, so majority of HFers are right. lol. Can't take him seriously.

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10-02-2012, 08:35 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Varying degrees of good to really good

90 - Darryl Sydor
93 - Jason Arnott
95 - Shane Doan
03 - Ryan Suter
02- Lupul

Young, getting better, and in reach of their potential to join the first bunch of names.

06 - Kyle Okposo
07 - Jakub Voracek
08 - Colin Wilson

Serviceable regs who didn't live up to their potential, but still carved a decent niche for themselves in the league.

97 - Paul Mara
98 - Manny Malholtra
01 - Mike Komisarek
04- Rostislav Olesz
05 - Jack Skille

If you're shooting for Kadri to make the last bunch of names, that's a 180 of what Leaf fans expected from him. If he can't crack Toronto's roster full-time at some point in the next two years, I think it would be safe to call Kadri a bust. Right now, he's leaning more and more to being a bust than living up to his potential as a top 10 pick.
Thats not my expectation, its comments like "at this point he's lucky to be a 3rd liner which is pathetic for his draft position" that im arguing with the list. Not to mention you have Wilson, Okposo, and Voracek as young guys getting better yet Kadri is declining because hes dropped fat yet its not as low as his teammates... Any one who has any education in human biology is well aware that your metabolism has as much of an affect on body weight as diet and excercise, thats why some people struggle to loose weight or body fat (metabolism tends to stores calories in fat cells) and some people naturally huge (calories tend to store in muscle).

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Josefson and Kruger is clearly better than Kadri at this point. Production is only one part of the game. The fact that Kruger can crack the roster of a contending team like Chicago and play well says a lot... while on the flip side, the fact that Kadri hasn't been able to crack the roster of a lottery team like the Leafs also says a lot.
So cracking a roster early is the new basis of success, Im guessing in Schenn is now better than Karlsson? Just because Kadri hasnt been given a fair shot doesnt mean he was unable to outplay anyone from our top 9. The Leafs had to many contracts so Kadri (and Frattin for that matter), as the only waiver exempted, suffered because of the fact.

Just going to leave this here http://www.livestrong.com/article/90...tage-athletes/


Last edited by The Podium: 10-02-2012 at 08:44 PM.
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10-02-2012, 08:45 PM
  #375
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i don't ever want to hear leaf fans chirp about Montreal's sensationalist 'french media'. Eakins was dumb to go public with it but this has become a circus and entirely overblown by the toronto media

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