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Valtteri Filppula our future 1st line Center?

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Old
09-29-2012, 03:14 PM
  #51
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Let's PLEASE not turn this into a Hudler thread... seriously guys... let's stay on topic here.

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09-29-2012, 03:27 PM
  #52
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I love Filppula, but if he's our #1 C I will be pretty worried about the offense.

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09-29-2012, 07:47 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
If we did, i guess we'll be a lotto team.

And then you draft a franchise #1 center!

Folks need to stop panicking about being a lottery team. It makes for a rough year or two, but the rebuild is pretty quick when you get top 5 picks. Every recent lottery team, save maybe Columbus, has some really exciting players making an impact now or will very shortly.

The real heartbreak is when you keep barely missing the playoffs, or flame out miserably in the 1st round, while continuing to pile up draft picks outside of the top 10 that may never make an impact, and certainly won't help in the immediate future. Let's call that Calgary syndrome.

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10-02-2012, 02:23 PM
  #54
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Havent read the thread.

Dear God, I hope not.

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10-02-2012, 02:49 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
And then you draft a franchise #1 center!

Folks need to stop panicking about being a lottery team. It makes for a rough year or two, but the rebuild is pretty quick when you get top 5 picks. Every recent lottery team, save maybe Columbus, has some really exciting players making an impact now or will very shortly.

The real heartbreak is when you keep barely missing the playoffs, or flame out miserably in the 1st round, while continuing to pile up draft picks outside of the top 10 that may never make an impact, and certainly won't help in the immediate future. Let's call that Calgary syndrome.
Lets look at some of the young stars/guys who would seriously help the Wings, shall we?

Mike Richards, LA Kings - 24th overall
Claude Giroux, PHI Flyers - 22nd overall
Jonathon Quick, LA Kings - 72nd overall
Adam Henrique, NJ Devils - 82nd overall
Travis Zajac, NJ Devils - 20th overall

Since hockey has been so off my radar lately, I am having a real hard time remembering all the young guns I really like watching. Its the nature of my memory, or lack thereof. So I went to ESPN and searched each team and was overwhelmed by how many very late 1st round picks and beyond are making huge impacts.

Wings dont have that. Is it philosophy (smallish Euro players)? Is it luck? Cant answer those questions, but I can say the Wings are being seriously outfoxed in the draft these days.

Wings dont need to tank, they need to draft better, more impactful players like the rest of the league seems to. Not once every 4 years, either. Every year a team should draft an NHL player that takes no more than 3 years to make the big club.

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10-02-2012, 03:08 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
Lets look at some of the young stars/guys who would seriously help the Wings, shall we?

Mike Richards, LA Kings - 24th overall
Claude Giroux, PHI Flyers - 22nd overall
Jonathon Quick, LA Kings - 72nd overall
Adam Henrique, NJ Devils - 82nd overall
Travis Zajac, NJ Devils - 20th overall

Since hockey has been so off my radar lately, I am having a real hard time remembering all the young guns I really like watching. Its the nature of my memory, or lack thereof. So I went to ESPN and searched each team and was overwhelmed by how many very late 1st round picks and beyond are making huge impacts.

Wings dont have that. Is it philosophy (smallish Euro players)? Is it luck? Cant answer those questions, but I can say the Wings are being seriously outfoxed in the draft these days.

Wings dont need to tank, they need to draft better, more impactful players like the rest of the league seems to. Not once every 4 years, either. Every year a team should draft an NHL player that takes no more than 3 years to make the big club.
I'm not sure it's a philosophy so much in who they draft as to how they set up their organization. Smith and Gus could have broke camp with the Wings last year. Helm, Ericsson, and Kindl could have made the Wings a year earlier than they did. Tatar should have had a legit shot at making the club this year without fighting his way through 16 vets to do it. Unless someone puts on a freak show in camp, the chance of pretty much any prospect making the wings within three years is pretty slim.

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10-02-2012, 08:18 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
Lets look at some of the young stars/guys who would seriously help the Wings, shall we?

Mike Richards, LA Kings - 24th overall
Claude Giroux, PHI Flyers - 22nd overall
Jonathon Quick, LA Kings - 72nd overall
Adam Henrique, NJ Devils - 82nd overall
Travis Zajac, NJ Devils - 20th overall

Since hockey has been so off my radar lately, I am having a real hard time remembering all the young guns I really like watching. Its the nature of my memory, or lack thereof. So I went to ESPN and searched each team and was overwhelmed by how many very late 1st round picks and beyond are making huge impacts.

Wings dont have that. Is it philosophy (smallish Euro players)? Is it luck? Cant answer those questions, but I can say the Wings are being seriously outfoxed in the draft these days.

Wings dont need to tank, they need to draft better, more impactful players like the rest of the league seems to. Not once every 4 years, either. Every year a team should draft an NHL player that takes no more than 3 years to make the big club.
Cherry picking a list doesn't prove much. When were Doughty and Kopitar drafted? Hint: high.

My point is if the Wings really are bound for failure they will end up with amazing young talent unless they blow it like Columbus. Dark days turn to golden. Every recent cup winner has had top ten picks. All of them. Furthermore "draft better" is pretty much the battle cry of every team in every sports league. So simple right? Why didn't they think of that!

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10-02-2012, 08:39 PM
  #58
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For the sake of being realistic re: every thread and 90% of posts on here since March. The wings came 5th in the conference last year (not 11th) and were eliminated in the first round ... just like Boston, Vancouver, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and San Jose.

Our draft picks havent gotten a chance yet so lets relax about what we have. Lids gone, Holmer gone, Hudler gone, Cleary probably gone next summer, Bert and Sammy the one after that. The end result of this situation will either be a fender-bender or a full blown car-wreck ... BUT, we wont know what the situation is for another 2 or 3 years.

Say what you want about our "system" but take a look at San Jose or Vancouver or Pittsburgh. Since the 08' draft what have they turned up better than us? Smith, Nyquist, Anderson, Jarnkrok, Tatar, Mrazek, Pukkinen, Oulette, Sproul ... thats a pretty decent stable of players. If 1 or 2 become stars and a few become regulars and a few good UFA's get added the sky doesnt fall.

Seriously. Enough of the "ugly girl left at the her parents house on prom night" attitude thats been circulating here ever since July 4th.

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Old
10-02-2012, 09:10 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post

Seriously. Enough of the "ugly girl left at the her parents house on prom night" attitude thats been circulating here ever since July 4th.
Can we say July 6th? I don't remember a whole lot on the 4th or 5th

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Old
10-02-2012, 10:14 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
For the sake of being realistic re: every thread and 90% of posts on here since March. The wings came 5th in the conference last year (not 11th) and were eliminated in the first round ... just like Boston, Vancouver, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and San Jose.

Our draft picks havent gotten a chance yet so lets relax about what we have. Lids gone, Holmer gone, Hudler gone, Cleary probably gone next summer, Bert and Sammy the one after that. The end result of this situation will either be a fender-bender or a full blown car-wreck ... BUT, we wont know what the situation is for another 2 or 3 years.

Say what you want about our "system" but take a look at San Jose or Vancouver or Pittsburgh. Since the 08' draft what have they turned up better than us? Smith, Nyquist, Anderson, Jarnkrok, Tatar, Mrazek, Pukkinen, Oulette, Sproul ... thats a pretty decent stable of players. If 1 or 2 become stars and a few become regulars and a few good UFA's get added the sky doesnt fall.

Seriously. Enough of the "ugly girl left at the her parents house on prom night" attitude thats been circulating here ever since July 4th.

Go back to 2005
SJ
Demers 183 Games
Wingels 38 Games
-------------------------------------2008
Couture 184 games
Pielmeir 1 Game
Bonino 85 Games
Braun 94 Games
McLaren 39 Games
Wishart 26 Games
McGinn 221 Games
McCarthy 51 Games
Setoguchi 336 Games
Vlasic 476 Games
Stalock 1 Game
Joslin 114 Games

Vancouver
Hodgson 91 Games
Sauve 5 Games
----------------------------------2008
Grabner 174 Games
Shirkov 8 Games
Bourdon 36 Games
Raymond 328 Games
Fredheim 3 Games
Bliznak 6 Games

Pittsburgh
Despres 18 games
Perchusky 1 Game
---------------------------2008
Bortuzzo 6 Games
Caputi 35 Games
Muzzin 11 Games
Jeffrey 66 Games
Staal 431 Games
Sneep 1 Game
Straight 12 Games
Johnson 6 Games
Crosby 434 Games
Letang 350 Games
Vitale 77 games


Detroit
Sheahan 1 Game
Tatar 9 Games
Nyquist 18 Games
McCollum 1 Game
------------------------------2008
Smith 14 Games
Anderson 5 Games
Emmerton 73 Games
Matthias 205 Games
Mursak 44 Games
Kindl 106 Games
Abdelkader 209 Games
Ritola 43 Games
Helm 248 Games


And just for fun, I added NJD
Larsson 65 Games
Josefson 69 Games
Urbom 13 Games
Tedenby 101 Games
Cormier 30 Games
Henrique 75 Games
----------------------------2008
Palmieri 87 Games
Halischuk 121 Games
Corrente 34 Games
Vasyunov 18 Games
Zharkov 82 Games
Magnan 18 Games
Bergfors 173 Games
Fraser 98 Games
Davis 9 Games
Fayne 139 Games

The one thing I'd note about the Wings is that since 2005, we haven't put anyone into our top 6 or put anyone firmly into our defense.

It's also interesting to note that Penguins drafting has been fairly brutal... but the scored pretty large on Letang.

If you take out 2005, the Wings drafting/development looks considerably worse.

Since 2006, the only proven Red Wing draft pick in the NHL is Matthias.
That's 7 drafts ago now.

SJ has been in a drafting slump and Vancouver's drafting has been pretty awful.

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Old
10-02-2012, 11:14 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
Lets look at some of the young stars/guys who would seriously help the Wings, shall we?

Mike Richards, LA Kings - 24th overall
Claude Giroux, PHI Flyers - 22nd overall
Jonathon Quick, LA Kings - 72nd overall
Adam Henrique, NJ Devils - 82nd overall
Travis Zajac, NJ Devils - 20th overall

Since hockey has been so off my radar lately, I am having a real hard time remembering all the young guns I really like watching. Its the nature of my memory, or lack thereof. So I went to ESPN and searched each team and was overwhelmed by how many very late 1st round picks and beyond are making huge impacts.

Wings dont have that. Is it philosophy (smallish Euro players)? Is it luck? Cant answer those questions, but I can say the Wings are being seriously outfoxed in the draft these days.

Wings dont need to tank, they need to draft better, more impactful players like the rest of the league seems to. Not once every 4 years, either. Every year a team should draft an NHL player that takes no more than 3 years to make the big club.
I could be wrong, guess I should look it up, but did we actually have a chance at any of those three in the first round. I know for a fact based on where Richards was taken they had no shot on him.

I get the general point but just picking after the fact and not taking into account the whole picture seems a bit unfair.

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Old
10-02-2012, 11:51 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Go back to 2005
SJ
Demers 183 Games
Wingels 38 Games
-------------------------------------2008
Couture 184 games
Pielmeir 1 Game
Bonino 85 Games
Braun 94 Games
McLaren 39 Games
Wishart 26 Games
McGinn 221 Games
McCarthy 51 Games
Setoguchi 336 Games
Vlasic 476 Games
Stalock 1 Game
Joslin 114 Games

Vancouver
Hodgson 91 Games
Sauve 5 Games
----------------------------------2008
Grabner 174 Games
Shirkov 8 Games
Bourdon 36 Games
Raymond 328 Games
Fredheim 3 Games
Bliznak 6 Games

Pittsburgh
Despres 18 games
Perchusky 1 Game
---------------------------2008
Bortuzzo 6 Games
Caputi 35 Games
Muzzin 11 Games
Jeffrey 66 Games
Staal 431 Games
Sneep 1 Game
Straight 12 Games
Johnson 6 Games
Crosby 434 Games
Letang 350 Games
Vitale 77 games


Detroit
Sheahan 1 Game
Tatar 9 Games
Nyquist 18 Games
McCollum 1 Game
------------------------------2008
Smith 14 Games
Anderson 5 Games
Emmerton 73 Games
Matthias 205 Games
Mursak 44 Games
Kindl 106 Games
Abdelkader 209 Games
Ritola 43 Games
Helm 248 Games


And just for fun, I added NJD
Larsson 65 Games
Josefson 69 Games
Urbom 13 Games
Tedenby 101 Games
Cormier 30 Games
Henrique 75 Games
----------------------------2008
Palmieri 87 Games
Halischuk 121 Games
Corrente 34 Games
Vasyunov 18 Games
Zharkov 82 Games
Magnan 18 Games
Bergfors 173 Games
Fraser 98 Games
Davis 9 Games
Fayne 139 Games

The one thing I'd note about the Wings is that since 2005, we haven't put anyone into our top 6 or put anyone firmly into our defense.

It's also interesting to note that Penguins drafting has been fairly brutal... but the scored pretty large on Letang.

If you take out 2005, the Wings drafting/development looks considerably worse.

Since 2006, the only proven Red Wing draft pick in the NHL is Matthias.
That's 7 drafts ago now.

SJ has been in a drafting slump and Vancouver's drafting has been pretty awful.
Good reply. That said - our situation has been different than those other teams in terms of getting our prosepcts into the lineup. 08 cup win and 09 1 goal away = no need to make major changes. We lose a few key guys (Hossa, Sammy, Hudler), Franzen blows his ACL and misses 75% of the year and a bunch of other injuries happen and we get bounced handily in round 2010. 2011, Huds comes back and the team leads the league for the first half of the season and wins the division. Another 2nd round loss ... discouraging, BUT the season ended with the team looking like a few "woulda, coulda, shouldas" (ie, Bert + Cleary not sustaining fluke concussions early in game 7) and Doan not pile-driving Franzens ankle we would have met Vancouver in the WCF.

This year ... lead the entire league for 60 games, assload of injuries, bunch of guys freshout of the trainers room with no jump or confidence and get bounced in the first round by an inferior team with 3 studs.

"If it ain't broke dont fix it" - to be fair for the past few years following the back to back cup runs management gave what we had every opportunity to see if they had what it took to get back there. It didnt work. I expect things to change considerably over the next 2 seasons. Hopefully the "rebuild/retool" is possible if the vets remain healthy and effective and Pav can be seduced into another 2-3 years after his deal. Im not saying our development methods are great or that I agree with them - Im just saying that I dont agree with throwing kids under the bus who havent even been given an opportunity yet which is something a few ppl have been doing allot of lately.

Not to mention - if Brunner ends up being legit and Jim Nill's connection to Dekeyser ends up with us getting Justin Schultz 2013 then that should be a good dose of tire pumping for whats on the horizon.

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10-03-2012, 12:04 AM
  #63
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You seriously think the Wings lost to an inferior team when they played Nashville? They were soundly beaten. Wings have no depth and the defense gives up too many easy opportunities.

"If it aint broke dont fix it" it's been broke for about three years now.

Minnesota Wild were #1 in the NHL in December. Choosing arbitrary dates to show how good the Wings are is pointless. They are an older team and injuries caught up with them. This has happened every year now since 2010. Unfortunately the team doesnt have the next Z/Datsyuk on the 4th line being prepped to take over.

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10-03-2012, 06:48 AM
  #64
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Choosing arbitrary dates to show how good the Wings are is pointless. They are an older team and injuries caught up with them. This has happened every year now since 2010. Unfortunately the team doesnt have the next Z/Datsyuk on the 4th line being prepped to take over.
Being older team is not an excuse for all of the injuries. Some injuries just happen, young or old player.

Like that Lidström bone bruise, the injury was just bad mod luck. If it happens for you, it takes to heal same time (long) no matter if you are 25-year old or 42.

And like that Helm wrist injury, same freaking thing. He is a young player and it didn't predict the skate blade make that cut to his wrist.

How about Howard groin? 27-year old guy, in his prime. It didn't predict him to get injured.


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10-03-2012, 10:37 AM
  #65
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Good reply. That said - our situation has been different than those other teams in terms of getting our prosepcts into the lineup. 08 cup win and 09 1 goal away = no need to make major changes. We lose a few key guys (Hossa, Sammy, Hudler), Franzen blows his ACL and misses 75% of the year and a bunch of other injuries happen and we get bounced handily in round 2010. 2011, Huds comes back and the team leads the league for the first half of the season and wins the division. Another 2nd round loss ... discouraging, BUT the season ended with the team looking like a few "woulda, coulda, shouldas" (ie, Bert + Cleary not sustaining fluke concussions early in game 7) and Doan not pile-driving Franzens ankle we would have met Vancouver in the WCF.

This year ... lead the entire league for 60 games, assload of injuries, bunch of guys freshout of the trainers room with no jump or confidence and get bounced in the first round by an inferior team with 3 studs.

"If it ain't broke dont fix it" - to be fair for the past few years following the back to back cup runs management gave what we had every opportunity to see if they had what it took to get back there. It didnt work. I expect things to change considerably over the next 2 seasons. Hopefully the "rebuild/retool" is possible if the vets remain healthy and effective and Pav can be seduced into another 2-3 years after his deal. Im not saying our development methods are great or that I agree with them - Im just saying that I dont agree with throwing kids under the bus who havent even been given an opportunity yet which is something a few ppl have been doing allot of lately.

Not to mention - if Brunner ends up being legit and Jim Nill's connection to Dekeyser ends up with us getting Justin Schultz 2013 then that should be a good dose of tire pumping for whats on the horizon.
I believe the "if it ain't broke" idea has no basis that can be supported by fact.
No team has won back-to-back cups since 97-98. And that year, because of the terrible injury to Konstantinov and the loss of Mike Vernon, there was considerable change in the Wings playoff lineup.
Barring major changes this year, I think the Wings are going to be a slightly above average team.
In my estimation, the idea that Sammy and Carlo Colaicovo will take minutes away from Nyquist, tatar, Mursak and Kindl points to a flaw in the Wings' asset management strategy.
We're holding down young guys for mediocre and average players.

By doing that, we're strangling the chances of our youth developing into the kind of players who can sustain the franchise's success.

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10-03-2012, 10:51 AM
  #66
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You seriously think the Wings lost to an inferior team when they played Nashville? They were soundly beaten.
That seriously pisses me off more than anything, that people can't believe that.

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10-03-2012, 11:06 AM
  #67
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That seriously pisses me off more than anything, that people can't believe that.
Soundly beaten, though?

Were they defeated by a tough opponent? Yes. Was it soundly? No. It was a VERY tight series that showed the Wings aren't a powerhouse, but they were still firmly a difficult playoff opponent. Nashville gassed themselves in that series and it showed in round 2.

It wasn't like the Phoenix roll-over we saw when Detroit manhandled them in 2011. That was soundly.

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10-03-2012, 11:16 AM
  #68
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By doing that, we're strangling the chances of our youth developing into the kind of players who can sustain the franchise's success.
Alternatively, it's possible those young guys will never be as good as 35-year-old Bert and Sammy.

There are literally half a dozen teams that have been parading out their own drafted young players for nearly a decade with nothing to show for it. Columbus, Florida, NY Islanders, Minnesota... and they had multiple top 10 picks!

Meanwhile we look at Vancouver and Pittsburgh and go, "Oh hey, they suck at drafting too, so few young guys making impacts lately..." instead of saying "Oh hey, those are really good teams that round out their rosters with veteran talent and continually make the playoffs."

Good teams rarely play tons of rookies. That's the only correlation I'm seeing. The more the Wings struggle, the more they'll be forced to play young players and rely on them. And, like the teams I mentioned above, will be forced to face the possibility that they will not meet expectations to the same level that veterans more reliably exhibit.

Don't confuse this for my ringing endorsement for signing an entire team of old dudes, but also understand part of the Wings success has been relying heavily on veterans in key positions. To ignore this is to also ignore trends with other teams. Minnesota is a great example of a team that, despite having tons of home grown talent and high draft picks, has failed to accomplish anything of note and DESPERATELY wanted to bring in some veterans to stabilize their team. Florida failed to even make the playoffs until they gutted the entire team and flipped them for, you guessed it, a bunch of veterans - like Sammy.

As the new salary cap NHL continues to cement itself in and more teams enter the bidding war for free agency, worry not, the Wings will be FORCED to play more kids. Maybe it should have been 2-3 years ago, but it's coming sooner than later, and then we'll really know how things shake out. But this posturing like the Wings would be better today if they played a bunch of kids... pure conjecture laced with arrogant "I know everything in hindsight" attitude.

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10-03-2012, 11:21 AM
  #69
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Soundly beaten, though?

Were they defeated by a tough opponent? Yes. Was it soundly? No. It was a VERY tight series that showed the Wings aren't a powerhouse, but they were still firmly a difficult playoff opponent. Nashville gassed themselves in that series and it showed in round 2.

It wasn't like the Phoenix roll-over we saw when Detroit manhandled them in 2011. That was soundly.
Five games is running out of gas? The preds had to do the bare minimum to win.

There wasn't a single moment where I believed the wings would come back because their offense was so pathetic and the preds defense barely had to do anything to stop it. Preds were getting Atleast one goal a game that was a result of a massive defensive breakdown. Wings only goal that counts toward that is datsyuk stealing the puck and putting it in the net before Rinne realized that happened.

It was beyond frustrating to watch because you clearly knew which team was better.

Phoenix had a hot goalie. That team is beyond lucky they made it to the WCF. If that team still exists next year they won't achieve half of what they did last year.

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10-03-2012, 11:32 AM
  #70
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The preds had to do the bare minimum to win.
Something tells me they'd disagree. They put forth a huge effort playing in their own end most of the series. That takes a toll, both physically and mentally.

I think you're seeing that series through your "I hate the Wings" glasses. All my friends from other parts of the country thought the Wings played really well but ran into a wall. Are they apologetic homers? I guess so, even though they hate the Wings.

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10-03-2012, 11:32 AM
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Veterans over youth only makes sense when you have a contending team. You can't afford to have many rookie mistakes in the later rounds of the playoffs. The wings don't have to worry about that now. They are rebuilding and it sure as hell isn't on the fly. Wings are entering Calgary flames territory by playing garbage vets like Sammy, cleary, CC, and the list continues. The lack of talent on the wings is incredible. It hasn't been this bad since lidstrom was drafted. Wings need to play the rookies and see if they have anything useful to work with.

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10-03-2012, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Something tells me they'd disagree. They put forth a huge effort playing in their own end most of the series. That takes a toll, both physically and mentally.

I think you're seeing that series through your "I hate the Wings" glasses. All my friends from other parts of the country thought the Wings played really well but ran into a wall. Are they apologetic homers? I guess so, even though they hate the Wings.
Mike Babcock disagrees with you and your friends. Sometimes you gotta call a spade a spade.

I don't wear glasses but if I did, I would probably wear a brand made by "reality"

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10-03-2012, 11:44 AM
  #73
Bench
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Veterans over youth only makes sense when you have a contending team. You can't afford to have many rookie mistakes in the later rounds of the playoffs. The wings don't have to worry about that now. They are rebuilding and it sure as hell isn't on the fly. Wings are entering Calgary flames territory by playing garbage vets like Sammy, cleary, CC, and the list continues. The lack of talent on the wings is incredible. It hasn't been this bad since lidstrom was drafted. Wings need to play the rookies and see if they have anything useful to work with.
They'll be forced to change no matter what. You'll get your wish. We're not in any particularly disagreement there, other than my annoyance with the posturing that some folks pretend to have all the answers... after the fact.

My point was, there's no evidence to show they'd be better today had they not signed veterans over the last few years. And I pointed to examples of teams producing high numbers of drafted players to their roster who failed to develop into difference makers even to the level of 40-point-per year old man Bertuzzi.

Worry not, your concerns are heard and echoed, as the drum for change has been beat so loudly here that it's rivaling that of a Neil Peart solo.

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10-03-2012, 11:46 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I don't wear glasses but if I did, I would probably wear a brand made by "reality"
Well when you have infallible glasses, why bother with discussion? You're the vector of truth! This board, and our engagements, are below you. My apologies.

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10-03-2012, 12:20 PM
  #75
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I love when people call themselves "realists" as if that means anything.

Just make the stupid argument. Nobody cares that you think you are more realistic than people here.

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