HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXX - Naughty Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-28-2012, 09:54 PM
  #101
Drop the Sopel
Feaster famine
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: calgary
Posts: 15,799
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Please post a link to the Canuck related goals against/60min. That would be very odd considering he allowed the least amount of shots against per 60min...

So since I've answered your question, how about you answer one for me: Who on the team is a better goal scorer than Booth? I rank Booth 4th behind Burrows, D.Sedin and Kesler.
Behind the net tracks goals against/60MIN. Booth has fared exceptionally poor in 2 consecutive years. Worst on the entire Panther squad in '10-11 and 2nd worst behind Malhotra last year. Zone starts and quality of competition aren't taken into account so the numbers shouldn't necessarily be taken at face value - though I don't believe shots tell the entire story either. Stats aside, my observation of Booth deems him a below average defensive forward.

I would peg Booth as the teams 4th best goalscorer and have stated numerous times his ability to put the puck in the net is valuable. I just didn't see enough from him last year to think of him as anything but an average 2nd line forward. His vision and playmaking ability really are poor for a top 6 forward - as bad as you'll see IMO.

I'm not saying he'll be waived anytime soon, just that if he were to be dealt he would bring back negligible value if we're not taking on undesirable salary. Not unlike dozens of other players around the league, a handful of which you had listed as 2nd line comparables.

I was a vocal advocate for bringing Booth in long before Gillis inquired about his services around the deadline last year - objectivity isn't an issue here.

Drop the Sopel is online now  
Old
09-28-2012, 10:05 PM
  #102
Drop the Sopel
Feaster famine
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: calgary
Posts: 15,799
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
There is a lot of luck involved in +/- and GA/60 because of variation in shooting percentage. Booth doesn't play poorly enough defensively or an important enough position to justify finishing last in on ice save percentage in both those years. This is really why Corsi is good, shots produce more events than goals, making them much more reliable over a single season.
Which corsi number is the best indicator? Corsi rel/Qoc?

There is a lot of variance in these numbers from year to year. This stat is still a work in progress IMO.

Just look how they determine quality of competition. Flawed...

Drop the Sopel is online now  
Old
09-28-2012, 10:17 PM
  #103
Scurr
Registered User
 
Scurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Whalley
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,047
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Stats aside, my observation of Booth deems him a below average defensive forward.
Booth doesn't have great defensive awareness but makes up for it in other area's. He's a tireless worker, has a defensive conscience and he's a good forechecker, all contribute to his overall defensive game. He's also a winger, he doesn't have heavy defensive responsibilities.

I agree with you on Booth's lack of playmaking ability and creativity. I think he's still getting comfortable here and our pro player development has been really good, that combined with his work ethic should make for a better player going forward. Ideally he'd be on a line with two guys who like to have the puck so Booth can do the dirty work.


Last edited by Scurr: 09-29-2012 at 02:40 AM.
Scurr is offline  
Old
09-28-2012, 11:15 PM
  #104
Luck 6
\\_______
 
Luck 6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,412
vCash: 500
We need this lock out to end.

Booth needs another chance before we judge him. He's settled in now, he knows what's expected of him, now he has to go and do it. If he fails now, go ahead and bash him. But until He does, I personally am going to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's a legit top 6 forward in my eyes, if the stats don't represent that then there's something wrong with the stats.

Luck 6 is offline  
Old
09-29-2012, 08:19 AM
  #105
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,585
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Behind the net tracks goals against/60MIN. Booth has fared exceptionally poor in 2 consecutive years. Worst on the entire Panther squad in '10-11 and 2nd worst behind Malhotra last year. Zone starts and quality of competition aren't taken into account so the numbers shouldn't necessarily be taken at face value - though I don't believe shots tell the entire story either. Stats aside, my observation of Booth deems him a below average defensive forward.


I wanted your source to make sure we were looking at the same thing. So you are referring to unadjusted GA/60 found here: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#



No QOC or zone start data. Immediately you look at Chris Higgins vs Kesler. The former has the higher CorsiRelQOC but a worse GA/60 than the latter... Yeah, the data needs more adjustment to take anything away from this alone. Interesting to note though that the Sedins allowed the most goals against of any forward (obvious TOI), but there is a disparity between Henrik allowing less than Daniel.



Essentially, I agree with Scurr on shot data. I think they tell _more_ of the story than GA. Not all, but more. And with shots against, Booth allowed the least per 60. Not to mention, his Corsi ON is quite strong at 16.6 (about equivalent to Perry, Sharp). So not only does he prevent shots, he drives play forward to generate shots at a strong rate. Both cases help defense. I still think he's underrated in this regard.



Quote:
I would peg Booth as the teams 4th best goalscorer and have stated numerous times his ability to put the puck in the net is valuable. I just didn't see enough from him last year to think of him as anything but an average 2nd line forward. His vision and playmaking ability really are poor for a top 6 forward - as bad as you'll see IMO.

I understand what you are saying. His lack of playmaking is who he is though. These were traits known before the Canucks acquired him, but they chose to get him anyways... Perhaps they expect nothing more than what an average 2nd liner can provide? Nothing more than what Booth is known to provide...



Quote:
I'm not saying he'll be waived anytime soon, just that if he were to be dealt he would bring back negligible value if we're not taking on undesirable salary. Not unlike dozens of other players around the league, a handful of which you had listed as 2nd line comparables.

I was a vocal advocate for bringing Booth in long before Gillis inquired about his services around the deadline last year - objectivity isn't an issue here.


You said he wasn't far from waiver territory. Objectivity will be questioned when comments like that are made, as you have seen (not just myself). He is not unlike dozens of 2nd liners around the league. Which is all this is really about.



While some would possibly want a 1st line forward on their 2nd line for the "scraps" Gillis gave up to get him (as you have referred to many times already), perhaps others just see that they got a 2nd line forward for free (essentially), and are contented by that alone.



Really, many teams would kill to have the forward corps the Canucks have - one that gets a lot of heat around here. If Gillis keeps supplementing the roster in a similar fashion, things look good moving forward. Right now, I see 8 top 6 forwards on the roster --> not many teams have that, and Gillis was still in on Doan to push it further... (He still has a chance to improve it)

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
09-29-2012, 09:36 AM
  #106
Yossarian54
Registered User
 
Yossarian54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Perth, WA
Country: Australia
Posts: 1,058
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I understand what you are saying. His lack of playmaking is who he is though. These were traits known before the Canucks acquired him, but they chose to get him anyways...
Word. Remember when we wanted someone who would just f&%*#@g go to the net, not fall over, and score garbage goals? Booth to a tee.

Yossarian54 is offline  
Old
09-29-2012, 06:49 PM
  #107
vanuck
Griffiths Way Goons
 
vanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Hong Kong
Posts: 10,391
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian54 View Post
Word. Remember when we wanted someone who would just f&%*#@g go to the net, not fall over, and score garbage goals? Booth to a tee.
Exactly. He provides an element to this team that was missing before, and still could use more of IMO.

vanuck is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 12:20 AM
  #108
Cogburn
Registered User
 
Cogburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,814
vCash: 500
I don't see why anyone can really talk down Booth, performance or stats be damned. We traded a flailing, struggling Sturm and an injured Samuelsson, who in hindsight may not have stuck around after last year and got a decent goal scorer, signed to about market value, that is close to one of our star and core players. Plus we got a pick back.

Cap hit is a little higher, but for a 20ish goal scorer, it's not obscene...he just needs to hit 20 in a full season with us.

Cogburn is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 01:15 AM
  #109
Samzilla
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Samzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 9,620
vCash: 500
I don't see why Booth couldn't score 25-30 with us. He was on pace for 23 last season (I think) and potted 16. A fully rehab'd Kesler would help.

Samzilla is online now  
Old
10-04-2012, 01:33 AM
  #110
Reverend Mayhem
CRJ + RNH = Sex
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,523
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I don't see why anyone can really talk down Booth, performance or stats be damned. We traded a flailing, struggling Sturm and an injured Samuelsson, who in hindsight may not have stuck around after last year and got a decent goal scorer, signed to about market value, that is close to one of our star and core players. Plus we got a pick back.

Cap hit is a little higher, but for a 20ish goal scorer, it's not obscene...he just needs to hit 20 in a full season with us.
Yeah, another poster said at the time it was players like Booth we wanted to have. Instead of scoring pretty goals, we wanted players that would take it hard to the net and go to the dirty areas to score. Booth is exactly that. When Kesler and Higgins were healthy, that was that line's identity. Their bread and butter was to crash the net and it worked very well. That's effective in the playoffs. It wears down other teams.

Booth is perhaps one of the most under-appreciated Canucks right now. Raymond is a close second.

Reverend Mayhem is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 02:09 AM
  #111
The Optimist
Registered User
 
The Optimist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SFU
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,233
vCash: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Booth is perhaps one of the most under-appreciated Canucks right now. Raymond is a close second.
Add Edler as the third.

The Optimist is online now  
Old
10-04-2012, 02:21 AM
  #112
Reverend Mayhem
CRJ + RNH = Sex
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,523
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Optimist View Post
Add Edler as the third.
ehhhh, yeah after these playoffs probably so.

Reverend Mayhem is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 02:24 AM
  #113
Royal Canuck
Go Canucks Go!
 
Royal Canuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Booth is perhaps one of the most under-appreciated Canucks right now. Raymond is a close second.
No love for Jannik Hansen?

__________________

Twitter |HFBoards Contact | Blog
PSN - TBennz
"You're never a loser until you quit trying. " - Mike Ditka
Royal Canuck is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 02:29 AM
  #114
mriswith
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 348
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Yeah, another poster said at the time it was players like Booth we wanted to have. Instead of scoring pretty goals, we wanted players that would take it hard to the net and go to the dirty areas to score. Booth is exactly that. When Kesler and Higgins were healthy, that was that line's identity. Their bread and butter was to crash the net and it worked very well. That's effective in the playoffs. It wears down other teams.
That line was a beauty. Before Booth was taken out by the knee on knee last year he was looking phenomenal. He didn't get back to that level the rest of the year once he came back.

Yet another reason to be upset with the lockout - we don't get to see if that was just a hot streak or if that's the type of Booth we can expect to see when he's on a line with actual chemistry and doesn't have to rehab a sprained MCL midseason.

mriswith is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 02:34 AM
  #115
Mr. Canucklehead
Mod Supervisor
Kitimat Canuck
 
Mr. Canucklehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kitimat, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,946
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
No love for Jannik Hansen?
Hansen gets pretty hefty amounts of love around these parts. The forwards that receive the most scorn are definitely Raymond and Booth. Raymond has had a rough couple of seasons, for sure, but I think Booth showed a fair amount of promise last year.

Mr. Canucklehead is online now  
Old
10-04-2012, 02:44 AM
  #116
Reverend Mayhem
CRJ + RNH = Sex
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,523
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
No love for Jannik Hansen?
What is this 2011? Hansen's well-appreciated I think. Booth constantly gets **** on here for things he couldn't control. He was playing fantastic before he succumb to injury, and had a good stretch of games after too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schism View Post
That line was a beauty. Before Booth was taken out by the knee on knee last year he was looking phenomenal. He didn't get back to that level the rest of the year once he came back.

Yet another reason to be upset with the lockout - we don't get to see if that was just a hot streak or if that's the type of Booth we can expect to see when he's on a line with actual chemistry and doesn't have to rehab a sprained MCL midseason.
I think Booth is just a streaky player. But he does things when he isn't scoring. He can hit (just ask Doughty) and is a good presence defensively. He's also a very team-oriented guy and he seemed to fit right into the locker room from day 1. That's great character.

Reverend Mayhem is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 02:55 AM
  #117
Royal Canuck
Go Canucks Go!
 
Royal Canuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,965
vCash: 500
I think I misunderstood the question.

Royal Canuck is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 02:57 AM
  #118
Reverend Mayhem
CRJ + RNH = Sex
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,523
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
I think I misunderstood the question.
Haha no worries. Hansen is a really good player, he's just underpaid (man, what a deal!) and is probably one of the best 3rd liners in the league.

Reverend Mayhem is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 01:43 PM
  #119
Scurr
Registered User
 
Scurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Whalley
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,047
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Hansen is a really good player, he's just underpaid (man, what a deal!) and is probably one of the best 3rd liners in the league.
Very true. Yet another guy we need more form in the playoffs though.

Scurr is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 03:55 PM
  #120
miscbrahh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 27
vCash: 500
always wondered why didnt the nucks trade raymond for steve ott at the deadline? i remember reading a news article about that trade

i would have thrown in raymond + 2nd or 3rd + a prospect

miscbrahh is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 04:25 PM
  #121
mriswith
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 348
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by miscbrahh View Post
always wondered why didnt the nucks trade raymond for steve ott at the deadline? i remember reading a news article about that trade

i would have thrown in raymond + 2nd or 3rd + a prospect
Rumour was they were asking for Hodgson. Given that they eventually traded him for Roy, I think that rumour was probably accurate.

Ott would have been excellent to have, but not at that price.

mriswith is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 10:55 PM
  #122
me2
Seahawks 43
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Broncos 8
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 19,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
What is this 2011? Hansen's well-appreciated I think. Booth constantly gets **** on here for things he couldn't control. He was playing fantastic before he succumb to injury, and had a good stretch of games after too.



I think Booth is just a streaky player. But he does things when he isn't scoring. He can hit (just ask Doughty) and is a good presence defensively. He's also a very team-oriented guy and he seemed to fit right into the locker room from day 1. That's great character.
Dunno about that, he went from bad to adequate though. The rest true, especially the streakiness - have there ever been a non-streaky 20-30g scorer in the history of the league?

me2 is offline  
Old
10-04-2012, 11:28 PM
  #123
Reverend Mayhem
CRJ + RNH = Sex
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,523
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post
Dunno about that, he went from bad to adequate though. The rest true, especially the streakiness - have there ever been a non-streaky 20-30g scorer in the history of the league?
Nope.

And he is good defensively. What he lacks in the thinking part he makes up for with his willingness to help, hustle and good work ethic. The thinking part will come to him eventually.

Reverend Mayhem is offline  
Old
10-05-2012, 12:29 AM
  #124
Yossarian54
Registered User
 
Yossarian54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Perth, WA
Country: Australia
Posts: 1,058
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by schism View Post
That line was a beauty. Before Booth was taken out by the knee on knee last year he was looking phenomenal. He didn't get back to that level the rest of the year once he came back.

Yet another reason to be upset with the lockout - we don't get to see if that was just a hot streak or if that's the type of Booth we can expect to see when he's on a line with actual chemistry and doesn't have to rehab a sprained MCL midseason.
Yeah I agree, Booth looked much better just before that knee-on-knee.

Yossarian54 is offline  
Old
10-05-2012, 01:45 AM
  #125
Vankiller Whale
All hail WMD
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,960
vCash: 400
This came up on the trade section, what do you guys think of Malhotra + Gaunce + 1st for Vanek?

If Schroeder can fit in well enough as 3C then I think I would do it. We'd have no holes in our roster and a stacked top-6. If we get a 1st in a Luongo trade to make up for losing one as it is a strong draft, it's even better.(And if we got Bjugstad + 1st then we'd be high flying).

Vankiller Whale is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:27 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.