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2012 CBA & Re-alignment: Lockout in Effect. Thanks Gary/Donald! PART II

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Old
10-04-2012, 04:18 PM
  #76
SidTheKid8787
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I'm putting just as much effort into it as the players/league are.
They've sat and negotiated 4 days(not even full days) of the 20 days of the lockout so far. I ain't protestin' shhh.

Oh and this:
@jmarshhh: This morning on the FAN, @937Giannotti asked Cooke how good Crosby looked. Cooke replied, "never seen him look this good."

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10-04-2012, 04:48 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I'm putting just as much effort into it as the players/league are.
They've sat and negotiated 4 days(not even full days) of the 20 days of the lockout so far. I ain't protestin' shhh.

Oh and this:
@jmarshhh: This morning on the FAN, @937Giannotti asked Cooke how good Crosby looked. Cooke replied, "never seen him look this good."
So by sitting here and doing nothing, you think that will accomplish something? I'm not sure I understand your point.

Again, I'm not saying it will make one lick of difference but the fans' voice needs to be heard. I just figured it wouldn't be that difficult to get people to show up for a protest or sit in.

The reason they aren't negotiating is because both groups just assume once they get their way, hockey will return to record revenue levels again. We the fans need to step up. The reality is that people WILL come back after the lockout but why should we have to wait? We should show them that we want hockey and we want it now. Maybe some bad press on each arena's lawns would do the trick. Despite the fact that it's 30 owners and hundreds of players, guys like Lemieux and Crosby are part of the reason there is a lockout. Make these guys have to answer to us.

Now I know I'm off the deep end because it won't work but I wouldn't mind giving it a try.

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10-04-2012, 05:21 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
So by sitting here and doing nothing, you think that will accomplish something? I'm not sure I understand your point.

Again, I'm not saying it will make one lick of difference but the fans' voice needs to be heard. I just figured it wouldn't be that difficult to get people to show up for a protest or sit in.

The reason they aren't negotiating is because both groups just assume once they get their way, hockey will return to record revenue levels again. We the fans need to step up. The reality is that people WILL come back after the lockout but why should we have to wait? We should show them that we want hockey and we want it now. Maybe some bad press on each arena's lawns would do the trick. Despite the fact that it's 30 owners and hundreds of players, guys like Lemieux and Crosby are part of the reason there is a lockout. Make these guys have to answer to us.

Now I know I'm off the deep end because it won't work but I wouldn't mind giving it a try.
I'm getting tons of other hockey so i don't need NHL hockey. My stance on it would be different if both parties actually gave a damn about the fans. As of now, neither side does with how they are acting.

If both parties were actually negotiating, i can see a protest actually helping. Right now? Not so much.

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10-04-2012, 05:23 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
So by sitting here and doing nothing, you think that will accomplish something? I'm not sure I understand your point.

Again, I'm not saying it will make one lick of difference but the fans' voice needs to be heard. I just figured it wouldn't be that difficult to get people to show up for a protest or sit in.

The reason they aren't negotiating is because both groups just assume once they get their way, hockey will return to record revenue levels again. We the fans need to step up. The reality is that people WILL come back after the lockout but why should we have to wait? We should show them that we want hockey and we want it now. Maybe some bad press on each arena's lawns would do the trick. Despite the fact that it's 30 owners and hundreds of players, guys like Lemieux and Crosby are part of the reason there is a lockout. Make these guys have to answer to us.

Now I know I'm off the deep end because it won't work but I wouldn't mind giving it a try.
I'd probably be right there with you with a sign saying **** the nhl and nhlpa if I lived in Pittsburgh. Something like that shouldn't be hard to organize these days with social media and everything. Could be good idea to get something going for each team and schedule it for whenever opening day was suppose to be. I think the league and the pa really needs to see we're the one really getting screwed here.... again!

It probably won't do a damn thing, but if I was right there it'd be good way to vent and better than doing nothing.


Last edited by Hans Rutherford: 10-04-2012 at 05:35 PM.
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10-04-2012, 05:30 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I'm getting tons of other hockey so i don't need NHL hockey. My stance on it would be different if both parties actually gave a damn about the fans. As of now, neither side does with how they are acting.

If both parties were actually negotiating, i can see a protest actually helping. Right now? Not so much.
I disagree. If they were negotiating I wouldn't be wanting to protest. I would recognize that the two groups are trying to act in good faith and are willing to come to the table. It's precisely because they don't give a damn about the fans that I want to show them we are serious.

I'm glad you're getting tons of other hockey in Canada, but the rest of us aren't so lucky. Without the NHL, there is nothing on TV except the random college game in the spring. I live in Cleveland and even the Mosters, the AHL affiliate of the Avalanche, only have 10 televised games and most are after January. So yeah I'm pissed and I want to do something about it.

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10-04-2012, 05:51 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I know I probably sound loony, but why not start a fan protest day in front of the arenas? I would imagine you could get a couple hundred college students, let alone the the fanbase from all demographics, to stand in front of the Consol Energy Center for a Saturday in protest. I'm not naive enough to think this will change things, but at least it would place some media attention on the fans. This lockout is about us as fans as well. Both the players and the owners are showing their lack of respect for us through this process. So why not show our lack of respect for them?
What does protesting for one day accomplish? You get one day of media (considering the MLB playoffs are underway, NFL& college football is in their season, and NBA camps have opened that's a maybe) and then what? Don't you think if either side realized that the fans should have a say it wouldn't have gotten to this point?

I know you're upset and you feel like you should do something, but the only way to get both sides to be afraid of losing games isn't thinking one day or one season, you have to think about long term consequences.

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10-04-2012, 06:12 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
What does protesting for one day accomplish? You get one day of media (considering the MLB playoffs are underway, NFL& college football is in their season, and NBA camps have opened that's a maybe) and then what? Don't you think if either side realized that the fans should have a say it wouldn't have gotten to this point?

I know you're upset and you feel like you should do something, but the only way to get both sides to be afraid of losing games isn't thinking one day or one season, you have to think about long term consequences.
Very well said.
I get where Shady is coming from but i like the idea of thinking of creative ways through social media of getting the players and leagues attention. Why not cut out the middle man(the media) and start a social media blitz directed right at the players and league themselves. The media would just latch on to it as it plays out.

I can do just as much sitting at this very keyboard, if not more, than protesting 1 day in front of an arena hoping, someone notices.

I just thought of an example. Starting a site where any and everyone can send in pictures holding up messages of how this lockout affects them(much like the occupywallstreet site). Be it a shop/store owner to arena staff to even us. Start it up, get it trending on twitter. Watch the articles and media follow suit.

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10-04-2012, 06:18 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Very well said.
I get where Shady is coming from but i like the idea of thinking of creative ways through social media of getting the players and leagues attention. Why not cut out the middle man(the media) and start a social media blitz directed right at the players and league themselves. The media would just latch on to it as it plays out.

I can do just as much sitting at this very keyboard, if not more, than protesting 1 day in front of an arena hoping, someone notices.

I just thought of an example. Starting a site where any and everyone can send in pictures holding up messages of how this lockout affects them(much like the occupywallstreet site). Be it a shop/store owner to arena staff to even us. Start it up, get it trending on twitter. Watch the articles and media follow suit.
most of us would have nothing better to say than we are forced to find other forms of entertainment.

seriously, my best message is


I don't need the NHL, I just want it

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10-04-2012, 06:31 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Very well said.
I get where Shady is coming from but i like the idea of thinking of creative ways through social media of getting the players and leagues attention. Why not cut out the middle man(the media) and start a social media blitz directed right at the players and league themselves. The media would just latch on to it as it plays out.

I can do just as much sitting at this very keyboard, if not more, than protesting 1 day in front of an arena hoping, someone notices.

I just thought of an example. Starting a site where any and everyone can send in pictures holding up messages of how this lockout affects them(much like the occupywallstreet site). Be it a shop/store owner to arena staff to even us. Start it up, get it trending on twitter. Watch the articles and media follow suit.
I'm guessing the NHL & NHLPA already know how you feel. Go look up the responses each are getting after canceling real games. Sure some lowly mole worker is probably working the twitter, but I'm guessing Bettman, Fehr, and everyone else involved knows how fans feel. Showing them pictures of your dog in a jersey just shows you'll be back cause you love the game that much.

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10-04-2012, 06:38 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
I'm guessing the NHL & NHLPA already know how you feel. Go look up the responses each are getting after canceling real games. Sure some lowly mole worker is probably working the twitter, but I'm guessing Bettman, Fehr, and everyone else involved knows how fans feel. Showing them pictures of your dog in a jersey just shows you'll be back cause you love the game that much.
Dog in a jersey? Naw. The messages i'd post would have to have some meaning. They'd send in the pics and i would put what is needed on the site. Or make it messages of how people are done spending money on a league and its players that don't really give a crap.

Anyways, i ain't doin' it. It was just an example.

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10-04-2012, 08:44 PM
  #86
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This is a crappy situation but it is what it is. Bettman is responsible for the health of the league as a whole. It's not an enviable position but there are a lot of teams bleeding money and there's also a case where larger market teams are circumventing the competitive balance that the salary cap was supposed to bring. The option of playing this season without a new CBA is just simply out of the question. The 1994 baseball season should be proof as to why that's a horrendous idea. Guess who was in charge of that baseball union that went on strike a month before the world series ending the season? Yep, Mr Fehr. If you think you're angry now, how would you feel with NHL'rs going on strike in March?

Anyways, how can Bettman and the NHL negotiate a fair deal with someone like Fehr who simply has no intention at all of negotiating anything fair. He doesnt care one bit about the competitive balance that the NHL wants for their product, he only cares about getting as much money as possible for his players. That means he's going to push things that yield only that result and are not necessarily good for us fans, especially since we're a smaller market. As fans we have a vested interest in the success of the league and the game as a whole and not who's wallet gets bigger. The thing is, only one side is representing that point of view. Some can't get past the fact that they just flat out don't like owners and thus they can't back them at all. But I think you need to look past it and look at what benefits your interests directly.

Do you want a luxury tax system similar to what they have in Baseball? That is what Fehr wants to create as a solution to the inequity of money between different hockey markets. So instead of players taking lower pay and allowing the salary cap and floor to lower to the extent it isnt burdening the smaller market teams he wants to enable teams like Toronto, Montreal and the Rangers to spend well above the cap as long as they're taxed and that money then goes to teams like Phoenix/Nashville. All one needs to do is look at baseball to see how horrible of an idea that is. I mean cmon, you guys are Penguins fans and most live in Pittsburgh, the evidence is right in front of you how destructive it can be. You'll have a system where small market teams are more encouraged to ice the cheapest roster possible while making profits off of the revenue sharing. Since for them to become players in that system they'd have to shell out way too much to even compete so why bother.

I am passionate about this because I absolutely loved the Hockey salary cap, it was the best one in professional sports. It largely was up to the skill and ability of the management teams to build the best hockey team possible with almost even resources between the teams. There are issues like the Flyers and Redwings and even the Rangers being able to heavily front load long contracts that circumvent the cap, and the ability of them to eat bad contracts by sending them to the minors. Those are things smaller market teams cant really do.

While it's supposedly the cool thing to say you hate Bettman he's the one that is looking out for our interests. I mean if you have the interest that the Penguins remain a viable stanley cup contender due to ability of management and not dependent on market size then yeah he's fighting for your interests. I don't want to lose hockey for the season, but I say this with a straight face. If the alternative is to give into the players and get a luxury tax system in place, I'd rather have a lockout that lasts 5 years instead of a season starting back up tomorrow with what the players want.

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10-04-2012, 09:00 PM
  #87
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I really wish I knew where both sides were standing right now as far as exactly what they are asking. Almost anyone I've seen siding with the players has made it sound like the only thing the players want is a fair cut and better revenue sharing. If that's the case, this is all stupid and I don't care about it. But if the players are still pushing for anything that threatens the hard cap I hope the owners destroy them and make sure they never try it again.

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10-04-2012, 09:14 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I really wish I knew where both sides were standing right now as far as exactly what they are asking. Almost anyone I've seen siding with the players has made it sound like the only thing the players want is a fair cut and better revenue sharing. If that's the case, this is all stupid and I don't care about it. But if the players are still pushing for anything that threatens the hard cap I hope the owners destroy them and make sure they never try it again.
I mainly was spouting off on some posts from Prohockeytalk which seems to be cheerleading for Fehr. They've been talking up things like soft caps and luxury taxes as if they're perfectly reasonable solutions to the NHL's problem. People are largely self interested so when their favorite team is say the Flyers they see those player supported proposals as good for their team. What I don't get though is when fans of our team or other small market teams want to join in and support such things that would be total death to their teams.

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10-04-2012, 09:18 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
I mainly was spouting off on some posts from Prohockeytalk which seems to be cheerleading for Fehr. They've been talking up things like soft caps and luxury taxes as if they're perfectly reasonable solutions to the NHL's problem. People are largely self interested so when their favorite team is say the Flyers they see those player supported proposals as good for their team. What I don't get though is when fans of our team or other small market teams want to join in and support such things that would be total death to their teams.
I've seen people on here flat out say removing the cap would help us. Its really hard to come up with a reasonable argument to convince them otherwise when I just want to smack them over the head

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10-04-2012, 09:41 PM
  #90
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I've seen people on here flat out say removing the cap would help us. Its really hard to come up with a reasonable argument to convince them otherwise when I just want to smack them over the head
Especially when the Pirates are on display front and center for people of Pittsburgh to see just how awful for a sport Donald Fehr is. He's great for the players, but horrible for the sport. Baseball has become a joke under his watch. It went from being the National Past time to what we see now. The steroids era, 1994 strike, yankees reaching the 200 million payroll mark, all the great accomplishments of a Donald Fehr lead players union.

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10-04-2012, 11:55 PM
  #91
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The option of playing this season without a new CBA is just simply out of the question. The 1994 baseball season should be proof as to why that's a horrendous idea. Guess who was in charge of that baseball union that went on strike a month before the world series ending the season? Yep, Mr Fehr. If you think you're angry now, how would you feel with NHL'rs going on strike in March?
Why would the players go on strike in the NHL? They seemed pretty content with the CBA as it existed up until its expiration. The NHL locked out the players because they've stated that not all teams can remain fiscally viable under the current CBA and they want a new one(don't disagree). I would've thought the players wouldn't have any issue continuing to play by that set of rules.

What information have you heard/read would suggest that the players would be striking as the playoffs approached? Genuinely curious on my part because other than the fact that Fehr was the Players rep each time, I'm not sure where the dots connect at?

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10-05-2012, 12:08 AM
  #92
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Why would the players go on strike in the NHL? They seemed pretty content with the CBA as it existed up until its expiration. The NHL locked out the players because they've stated that not all teams can remain fiscally viable under the current CBA and they want a new one(don't disagree). I would've thought the players wouldn't have any issue continuing to play by that set of rules.

What information have you heard/read would suggest that the players would be striking as the playoffs approached? Genuinely curious on my part because other than the fact that Fehr was the Players rep each time, I'm not sure where the dots connect at?
because they know they eventually need to get a new deal done. They would never have more leverage than they would have in that scenario.

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10-05-2012, 12:15 AM
  #93
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From Wikipedia

"With the NHL locking out at midnight on September 15, 2012, Fehr has become the only Executive Director to be directly involved in work stoppages in two sports. He has never negotiated a labor agreement without a work stoppage."

I get that the NHLPA wants the best representation, and Fehr got the MLB players HUGE money, but why the **** would they hire him if they wanted to avoid a lockout?

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10-05-2012, 12:20 AM
  #94
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From Wikipedia

"With the NHL locking out at midnight on September 15, 2012, Fehr has become the only Executive Director to be directly involved in work stoppages in two sports. He has never negotiated a labor agreement without a work stoppage."

I get that the NHLPA wants the best representation, and Fehr got the MLB players HUGE money, but why the **** would they hire him if they wanted to avoid a lockout?
Because they want him to get them HUGE money more than they want to avoid a lockout.

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10-05-2012, 12:31 AM
  #95
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The NHLPA made clear their message the second they hired Fehr, and their message was 'we want war'.


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10-05-2012, 12:40 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Because they want him to get them HUGE money more than they want to avoid a lockout.
The PA back room fired the guy that would avoid a lockout (Kelly), and hired the guy that would ensure a long lockout.

There is a distrustful, bitter, angry inner core of the players union that has worked years to bring this all about. They don't give a rats a$$ for the game, only want to win $$$, and get back at the owners for the their perceived loss in the last lockout. It really truly is all about the $$$$ this time.

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10-05-2012, 01:06 AM
  #97
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The PA back room fired the guy that would avoid a lockout (Kelly), and hired the guy that would ensure a long lockout.

There is a distrustful, bitter, angry inner core of the players union that has worked years to bring this all about. They don't give a rats a$$ for the game, only want to win $$$, and get back at the owners for the their perceived loss in the last lockout. It really truly is all about the $$$$ this time.
Proof?

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10-05-2012, 01:19 AM
  #98
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Proof?
They hired the offspring of Beelzebub and Nicki Minaj.

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10-05-2012, 02:07 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by WickedWrister View Post
Proof?
Kuklaskorner:
The vitriol towards Gary Bettman among players is really heightened. Said one: "We'll stay united just to knock the smirk off his face."

http://m.espn.go.com/nhl/story?story...8&lang=ES&wjb=

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=289357

http://kuklaskorner.com/index.php/ps...d_by_the_nhlpa


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10-05-2012, 03:04 AM
  #100
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Lots of interesting readings to be had on the Interwebs tonight....

"As an outsider who follows these things I'm really concerned this could be a very long labour-relations battle," said MacDonald. "There are just so many bad things in play. Whenever there are two sides bargaining there are a variety of tactics used. One of them that Don Fehr uses all the time is 'deadline hunting.' That means that you push the deadline to whatever the perceived threshold is and at that time the hope is the other side will significantly capitulate.
"But there's not a deadline yet. What we've had, instead, is this discussion where they're not even using the same framework. One is talking about revenue sharing, the other is talking about a diminished share of growth revenue.
"It's different languages and there's no urgency."
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...172235421.html

Bettman replied: “We would have been prepared to propose and negotiate over a ‘de-linked’ maximum team salary sooner, but the NHLPA had been consistent in stating that the players would never accept a salary cap. We only learned in the mediation process Sunday that you would entertain such an offer.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...medium=twitter

“The players are in a much better situation this time than during the last lockout just because history taught not only us, but them, how to prepare for such a possible scenario,” said Darwin Schandor, who leads Royal Bank’s sports professionals team, which advises hundreds of athletes, coaches and team executives. “I haven’t seen too many of our player clients in a situation of worry or concern as it relates to their affairs.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4587654/

"Then there are the players, who do not want to get their butts handed to them, not again. As Damien Cox, the respected columnist for the Toronto Star points out, they got what they wished for when they hired Fehr. As Cox put it, “In attempting to establish a democracy within the NHLPA, an iron-fisted dictatorship has been created.”
The union is a dictatorship run by Fehr, who will not crack. The league is an oligarchy run by rich owners and represented by Bettman, who will not budge."
http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com/...or-talks.html?


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