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Old
10-05-2012, 12:06 PM
  #26
Pierce Hawthorne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handyj View Post
Either way doesn't add up. And any Avs fan saying they wouldn't do this deal is being homer to the max.
Well..... This is Ironic.


Avs say no, Leafs say no. Neither side moves there respective star unless its for a significant Overpayment, this is decent value, but not an overpayment for either side so both pass.

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10-05-2012, 12:10 PM
  #27
Double Dion
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Burke needs to save his job, so I don't see him trading 40 goals for 20 right now. Even if it's a potential win down the road. The Avs are not a contender, so I don't see why they would trade a guy who could be a top line center one day even if they are deep at the position. IMO it makes much more sense for the Avs to trade the overpaid Stastny for an NHL ready prospect or two.

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10-05-2012, 12:11 PM
  #28
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Even though Gardiner could help the Avs compete this year I would rather see them stay pat and let a kid like Siemens develop to fill that hole on the left side because the kind of center depth the Avs have is a rare thing. I think it would take Gardiner and 1st to get Sherman to consider trading Duchene.

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10-05-2012, 12:23 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
It's like you think Kessel is flawless. Great scorer, but poor defensively, easily intimidated according to the players poll, as well as rumours surrounding bad attitude and poor work ethic. Would I still consider trading Duchene for him? Yes. Would I actually agree to it? Probably not.
And those rumours are absolutely false, there's a reason Kessel wore the 'A' last year.

No way Toronto does this. Duchene will turn it around, but Kessel's built up great chemistry with some of the players on the roster and has gotten over his earlier consistency issues.


Last edited by TheLeastOfTheBunch: 10-05-2012 at 12:28 PM.
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10-05-2012, 12:25 PM
  #30
Double Dion
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Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
There's a reason Kessel wore an 'A' last year, and it wasn't because he had poor attitude and poor work ethic.

No way Toronto does this.
I'd consider it for Duchene if the wheels fall off this season. It wouldn't even be a conversation if the player coming back was Stastny. The most I'd give for him would be Bozak, a cap dump and a 3rd. Duchene has a chance to be great and the Leafs could use a great centerman.

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10-05-2012, 12:26 PM
  #31
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Gardiner for Stastny.

Now you can all go home.

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10-05-2012, 12:27 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post

MAYBE, MAYBE Gardiner + Kulemin + Tor 1st and 2nd, but even then I dont think the Avs pull the trigger.

from one end of the spectrum to the other

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10-05-2012, 12:29 PM
  #33
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It's palatable from a Leafs POV. I expect Duchene to bounce back in a big way, and yea, the Leafs should add to make it palatable for the Avs but the fans crying foul for the proposal obviously haven't seen Gardiner play.


Last edited by TMI: 10-06-2012 at 01:30 PM. Reason: flaming/quoted deleted post
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Old
10-05-2012, 12:32 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
Stastny is not nearly as good as Duchene will be. He's not nearly as good as O'Reilly. Ask the Canadiens how it feels to have a 7 million dollar 4th line center because Stastny's career trajectory has certainly not been an upward progression. Look for him to assume third line minutes if we have a season this year.
No he won't.

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Old
10-05-2012, 12:36 PM
  #35
Pierce Hawthorne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
Stastny is not nearly as good as Duchene will be. He's not nearly as good as O'Reilly. Ask the Canadiens how it feels to have a 7 million dollar 4th line center because Stastny's career trajectory has certainly not been an upward progression. Look for him to assume third line minutes if we have a season this year.
Nope, simply put your wrong.

Stastny is still better then both Oreilly and Duchene, and will likely be first line Center again next year(Though there isnt really a 1st/2nd/3rd line, just 3 scoring lines played equally).

And Stastny's production hasnt actually dropped off a whole lot, the Avs only scored 199 goals last year, Stastny was in on 53 of them or 26.6%. The Average goals scored per team is about 220-225 Goals, so had the Avs scored at an average pace(for arguments sake 223 goals), Stastny would have had 60 Points in 79 games, which over an 82 game season is about 62 Points. Over Stastnys 6 seasons in the NHL he's played at a 72 point pace per 82 Game season, so he's only about 10 points off his career average last year, and this is while being forced to play a much more Defense oriented style.

We wont even get into his linemates last year, compared to his linemates in the first 3 years of his career, but we'll just say theyre's been a significant decrease in his quality of linemates, and leave it at that.

Basically, if the Avs play a little more offensive styled next year/this year and he plays a full season(Or Partial, whatever we get) with McGinn on his wing, he will likely be back up in the 65-70 range again, if not higher.


But hey, your the Avs expert, so tell me more about how Stastny will be a 3rd liner next year scoring 40-50 points, and be the next Gomez in a year or two.

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10-05-2012, 12:37 PM
  #36
Double Dion
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Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
No he won't.
Great insight... Who is he playing ahead of? O'Reilly or Duchene? Both are better players by far IMO. Stastny is not very good defensively, so you can't really use him in a shutdown role either. He's like the forward version of JBo. Theye have some value because there is a shortage of defensemen and centermen, but they are paid 50% more than what they should be making and their games have all sorts of flaws. I'm not a fan of players who lack intensity and desire. Stastny certainly fits that description to a tee.

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Old
10-05-2012, 12:40 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Nope, simply put your wrong.

Stastny is still better then both Oreilly and Duchene, and will likely be first line Center again next year(Though there isnt really a 1st/2nd/3rd line, just 3 scoring lines played equally).

And Stastny's production hasnt actually dropped off a whole lot, the Avs only scored 199 goals last year, Stastny was in on 53 of them or 26.6%. The Average goals scored per team is about 220-225 Goals, so had the Avs scored at an average pace(for arguments sake 223 goals), Stastny would have had 60 Points in 79 games, which over an 82 game season is about 62 Points. Over Stastnys 6 seasons in the NHL he's played at a 72 point pace per 82 Game season, so he's only about 10 points off his career average last year, and this is while being forced to play a much more Defense oriented style.

We wont even get into his linemates last year, compared to his linemates in the first 3 years of his career, but we'll just say theyre's been a significant decrease in his quality of linemates, and leave it at that.

Basically, if the Avs play a little more offensive styled next year/this year and he plays a full season(Or Partial, whatever we get) with McGinn on his wing, he will likely be back up in the 65-70 range again, if not higher.


But hey, your the Avs expert, so tell me more about how Stastny will be a 3rd liner next year scoring 40-50 points, and be the next Gomez in a year or two.
I could see some debate around Duchene. I disagree with you, but it is debatable. I don't even know how you can possibly think that with O'Reilly though. The kid brings every intangible under the sun and outscores him. He's literally better at every single facet of the game. It's like saying Briere is better than Giroux.

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Old
10-05-2012, 12:44 PM
  #38
Pierce Hawthorne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theLongR0D View Post
from one end of the spectrum to the other
Not really, Kulemin had a very poor year last year, and yes Duchene did too, but Kulemin didnt play less then 40 games healthy, he played 70 games, and had 28 points. And despite what Leafs fans seem to think, Gardiner isnt a surefire Top Pairing Dman, not even close. There's still alot of risk with him, aswell as Kulemin.

And theres also no denying that if the Leafs were to make this trade, AND pick up Luongo as the rumors say is still a strong possibility, that Leafs 1st and 2nd will at BEST, be 16-20 and 46-50 range, and could easily be worse.

Duchene Centering Kessel and Lupul, with a Top 10 goalie in Luongo backstopping the team, yea the Leafs would be ALOT better.

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Old
10-05-2012, 12:45 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Well..... This is Ironic.


Avs say no, Leafs say no. Neither side moves there respective star unless its for a significant Overpayment, this is decent value, but not an overpayment for either side so both pass.
I would say neither sides FANS move their respective star unless its for a significant overpayment.

If it's a good hockey trade for both sides and sometimes you can make a good hockey trade that looks equal on paper and improve your team, most actual GMs would give it some thought.

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10-05-2012, 12:49 PM
  #40
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Deal doesn't do enough for Colorado. Gardiner isn't enough of an upgrade to sacrifice Duchene.

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10-05-2012, 12:49 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
I could see some debate around Duchene. I disagree with you, but it is debatable. I don't even know how you can possibly think that with O'Reilly though. The kid brings every intangible under the sun and outscores him. He's literally better at every single facet of the game. It's like saying Briere is better than Giroux.
Oreilly had a great year lat year, theres no doubt. But alot of that was because of the play of Landeskog, not Oreilly. Oreilly is better on the Defensive side of the game then Stastny, theres no doubting that(Although Stastny is no slouch either, but Orielly is boarderline Elite in his own end), but Stastny is still the superior playing offensively and when it comes to skating. Stastny played with the likes of a struuggling Milan Hejduk, TJ Galliardi, a Drunk David Jones, and Mark Olver for most of the year, and still put up basically the same numbers as Oreilly, who played with Landeskog for the entire year, and Downie for the final 20.

Give Stastny Landeskog for all of next year, with say McGinn on the other Wing, and theres no doubt in my mind Landeskog will score, McGinn will score 20, and Stastny will have a 20/50 season for 70+ points.


Last edited by TMI: 10-06-2012 at 01:37 PM. Reason: flaming
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Old
10-05-2012, 12:51 PM
  #42
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Duchene's a former top three pick, there's no reason at this point to think he won't reach his potential.. I think to get the Avs listening to you'd need to really bowl them over with an offer (think Gardiner + Kadri + something significant, then add Bozak to replace Duch's roster spot).

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10-05-2012, 12:55 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Not really, Kulemin had a very poor year last year, and yes Duchene did too, but Kulemin didnt play less then 40 games healthy, he played 70 games, and had 28 points. And despite what Leafs fans seem to think, Gardiner isnt a surefire Top Pairing Dman, not even close. There's still alot of risk with him, aswell as Kulemin.

And theres also no denying that if the Leafs were to make this trade, AND pick up Luongo as the rumors say is still a strong possibility, that Leafs 1st and 2nd will at BEST, be 16-20 and 46-50 range, and could easily be worse.

Duchene Centering Kessel and Lupul, with a Top 10 goalie in Luongo backstopping the team, yea the Leafs would be ALOT better.
However you implied it wasn't even enough for the Avs to pull the trigger. There's nothing that leads me to believe that Luongo will be a maple leaf either. It's very likely that the leafs get a top 10 pick again this year. With the depth at Center in the upcoming draft, it wouldn't be very bright to trade that much away in hopes that Duchene regains his "top prospect" form. There was alot going on with Kulemin mentally last year and I wouldn't be surprised to see a bounce back year from him. Couple that with Gardiner and 2 picks in a very deep draft, I just don't see the value. Thats just my opinion, but I can respect yours aswell.

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10-05-2012, 12:57 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
Great insight... Who is he playing ahead of? O'Reilly or Duchene? Both are better players by far IMO. Stastny is not very good defensively, so you can't really use him in a shutdown role either. He's like the forward version of JBo. Theye have some value because there is a shortage of defensemen and centermen, but they are paid 50% more than what they should be making and their games have all sorts of flaws. I'm not a fan of players who lack intensity and desire. Stastny certainly fits that description to a tee.
Stastny is much more suited to a traditional top 6 role than O'Reilly is. And since the Avs will play with a top 9 rather than a top 6 whenever they next play, we'll need all three. And if Stastny is so terrible, how come Toronto fans pop up every other week wanting to get him?

(By the, way, my own ranking of our centres in terms of top line potential: Duchene > Stastny > O'Reilly, though Stastny is more proven than Duchene currently.)

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10-05-2012, 01:04 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
Stastny is much more suited to a traditional top 6 role than O'Reilly is. And since the Avs will play with a top 9 rather than a top 6 whenever they next play, we'll need all three. And if Stastny is so terrible, how come Toronto fans pop up every other week wanting to get him?

(By the, way, my own ranking of our centres in terms of top line potential: Duchene > Stastny > O'Reilly, though Stastny is more proven than Duchene currently.)
Your post is at least reasonable unlike others who've posted here. I don't disagree with your assessment in terms of talent. I think Duchene has the most, then Stastny, then O'Reilly. But in terms of performance I certainly do disagree with you. Performance wise O'Reilly was the best. He hits, plays great in his own end (IMO he could win Selke trophies down the line) and is an excellent PKer. I agree that Stastny's skill set is more of a traditional top 6 role, but performance is what counts. If it was only about the skill set you had Phaneuf and Bouwmeester would be top 5 NHL defensemen and Kovalev would have been Crosby.

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10-05-2012, 01:06 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
Stastny is not nearly as good as Duchene will be. He's not nearly as good as O'Reilly. Ask the Canadiens how it feels to have a 7 million dollar 4th line center because Stastny's career trajectory has certainly not been an upward progression. Look for him to assume third line minutes if we have a season this year.
Do you really believe this or do you just really want to believe this?

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10-05-2012, 01:11 PM
  #47
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10-05-2012, 01:15 PM
  #48
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Oh dear.

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10-05-2012, 01:20 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by theLongR0D View Post
However you implied it wasn't even enough for the Avs to pull the trigger. There's nothing that leads me to believe that Luongo will be a maple leaf either. It's very likely that the leafs get a top 10 pick again this year. With the depth at Center in the upcoming draft, it wouldn't be very bright to trade that much away in hopes that Duchene regains his "top prospect" form. There was alot going on with Kulemin mentally last year and I wouldn't be surprised to see a bounce back year from him. Couple that with Gardiner and 2 picks in a very deep draft, I just don't see the value. Thats just my opinion, but I can respect yours aswell.
It's not enough for the Avs to pull the trigger. Duchene's "top prospect" form has nothign to do with it, Duchene's "NHL before he got hurt last year" form is what it has to do with. Unless you're the only person that thinks Duchene's career is now over because of his injury. Kid was an allstar the season before last, yeah he got hurt last year and came back before he was healthy to try and help the playoff run, doesn't mean his future is suddenly damned.

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10-05-2012, 01:22 PM
  #50
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Avs would never do this. Comparing the two:

One was drafted 3rd overall, is a year younger, and has proven that he has at least the capability of being a 1st line player and led his team offensively at age 19.

The other has only proven that he can play as a semi-reasonable 2nd pairing D.

Duchene has far more value IMO. Something like JVR + Gardiner is much closer value.

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